LumberJocks

All Replies on Titebond glue joint failure

  • Advertise with us
View greatview's profile

Titebond glue joint failure

by greatview
posted 07-15-2017 04:38 PM


21 replies so far

View Dustin's profile

Dustin

688 posts in 1102 days


#1 posted 07-15-2017 04:47 PM

Is it fully separated, or just cracking?

If it were me, and the crack was large enough, maybe try to slide in a piece of sandpaper to scuff the inside of the joint, then try to apply glue in a similar fashion (using a thin piece of scrap to apply inside)?

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

View Ripper70's profile

Ripper70

1262 posts in 1270 days


#2 posted 07-15-2017 04:49 PM

Do you think perhaps a corrugated nail or two would work instead of re-gluing?

-- "You know, I'm such a great driver, it's incomprehensible that they took my license away." --Vince Ricardo

View greatview's profile

greatview

135 posts in 3519 days


#3 posted 07-15-2017 05:30 PM

The joint is still tight but fully separated as I can move one piece relative to the other slightly. A corrugated nail really would’t work as the material is cherry and fairly dense and hard. Also not thick enough.
I’ve attached a photo and you’ll see that it is a set of nesting tables and one of the corners (smallest table) has separated. If I must, I can refinish the repaired table.

-- Tom, New London, NH

View bigJohninvegas's profile

bigJohninvegas

597 posts in 1823 days


#4 posted 07-15-2017 05:43 PM

Wow that’s a tough repair. What about a spline on the underside? Can you remove the legs to get to it? Just like a Domino, or dowel except exposed from the bottom.

-- John

View SignWave's profile

SignWave

472 posts in 3396 days


#5 posted 07-15-2017 05:52 PM

That’s very attractive, and I like the aesthetics and the light tones in that cherry.

It looks like end-grain to end-grain joint. I would consider something like a spline to support the joint, or else open the joint completely and add a biscuit, dowel, or floating tenon. I understand your hesitation, but I think that just hoping the glue will hold an end grain joint is optimistic, especially over time.

-- Barry, http://BarrysWorkshop.com/

View greatview's profile

greatview

135 posts in 3519 days


#6 posted 07-15-2017 06:07 PM

I’ve made a dozen or more sets over the last few years and never had a joint fail. I’ve thought about some type of reinforcement (spline, dowel, etc.) but never did as I had no joint problems in the past. What I may do is to make a new top for the one that’s failed and use the old top for a new set after cleaning out the glue. With a narrow kerf blade I could split the opposing joint and have a top slightly smaller. Or, just ignore the size difference and reinstall the top to the leg assembly. Here’s a better photo of the assembly. I typically give these to local charities which sell them on auction and they sell for about $300 per set.

-- Tom, New London, NH

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

4406 posts in 950 days


#7 posted 07-15-2017 06:08 PM

I’d be temped to try staples. The T50 staplers are powerful enough to drive it flat to the surface (not flush though). The 1/4” crown staples are heavier gauge and the pneumatic stapler should be able to drive it flush, but you need the gun and a compressor.

It seems like you should be able to open the joint enough to get some glue in there without breaking the other joints and that would help stabilize the joint however you choose to strengthen it mechanically.

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View SignWave's profile

SignWave

472 posts in 3396 days


#8 posted 07-15-2017 06:14 PM

Those are very attractive.

-- Barry, http://BarrysWorkshop.com/

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2203 posts in 2159 days


#9 posted 07-15-2017 06:17 PM

The miter joint has no jointery? Just glue on the end grain if so I think your ahead of the game.
They are nice looking tables and design

-- Aj

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1402 posts in 3122 days


#10 posted 07-15-2017 06:39 PM

If you failed to spread glue on both sides of the joint before assembling, this may have cause the joint failure. Titebond is a really good glue and I see it as unlikely that a properly glued joint would have failed unless under extreme stress. Some people only spread glue on one side of the joint and this doesn’t give you the strongest joint. I learned a lot about gluing wood when I was building my first homebuilt airplane. Nothing makes you more focused and knowledgeable than building something that might kill you! : )

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5234 posts in 2670 days


#11 posted 07-15-2017 07:14 PM

How about a bow tie across the back side. flush of course

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

388 posts in 1321 days


#12 posted 07-15-2017 09:57 PM

I don’t think this was glue failure but rather the butt joint, It needed more than glue. Spline,dowels,Domino,etc

View greatview's profile

greatview

135 posts in 3519 days


#13 posted 07-15-2017 10:06 PM

I agree that a spline (or whatever) would strengthen the joint but I’ve made many of this design (maybe 15 – 20 sets with twelve joints in each set – 200 joints or more) without an issue and was hoping to find a solution to the broken joint that I now have.

-- Tom, New London, NH

View Gene Howe's profile

Gene Howe

11494 posts in 3790 days


#14 posted 07-15-2017 11:01 PM

On end grain joints, I always spread a very thin coat of glue on both surfaces. (I use TBII, also). I use my finger and really work it in. When it dries it has effectively sealed the pores so it won’t suck up the new glue and starve the joint. Which, I suspect happened in your case.

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5914 posts in 3174 days


#15 posted 07-16-2017 04:55 AM

That actually doesn’t surprise me at all that a relatively small miter joint failed. It isn’t the glue, but the very nature of the joint used. In the future I would use a #20 biscuit at each corner.

As far as a quick fix for the current project… what about a pocket screw from underneath? Use a clamp to align the parts when driving the screw. The smaller Kreg jigs would work great. A little more glue wouldn’t hurt if you can work it into the joint.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View dalepage's profile

dalepage

385 posts in 1202 days


#16 posted 07-16-2017 07:30 PM

Steer clear of quick fixes like a corrugated nail or a staple. Your work is too nice to put a pimple on it like that. You will not be happy trying to put super glue in the joint.

I would always put splines on miters because you’re basically gluing end grain. Your not having had any of these joints fail before is, I think, because the joint never had enough pressure on it to pull it apart.

You can turn the need for splines into a design element, or hide them like biscuits in the future.

For now, I’d put the frame in clamps and draw it together. Drill a hole into one edge, perpendicular to the edge. Get a small dowel and file a very slight groove for the glue to escape. Put glue in the hole. Tap the dowel home until it bottoms out. Flush cut the dowel. Remember, exposed dowels are end grain and will darken more than face grain when they’re oiled. You can lessen that by treating the end of the dowel.

-- Dale

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

4406 posts in 950 days


#17 posted 07-16-2017 07:38 PM



Steer clear of quick fixes like a corrugated nail or a staple. Your work is too nice to put a pimple on it like that. You will not be happy trying to put super glue in the joint.

I would always put splines on miters because you re basically gluing end grain. Your not having had any of these joints fail before is, I think, because the joint never had enough pressure on it to pull it apart.

You can turn the need for splines into a design element, or hide them like biscuits in the future.

For now, I d put the frame in clamps and draw it together. Drill a hole into one edge, perpendicular to the edge. Get a small dowel and file a very slight groove for the glue to escape. Put glue in the hole. Tap the dowel home until it bottoms out. Flush cut the dowel. Remember, exposed dowels are end grain and will darken more than face grain when they re oiled. You can lessen that by treating the end of the dowel.

- dalepage

A hidden staple or corrugated plate on the underside is a pimple, but a single exposed dowel end on the edge of one corner isn’t? That’s a very strange aesthetic principle you got going there.

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 953 days


#18 posted 07-16-2017 07:59 PM


I agree that a spline (or whatever) would strengthen the joint but I ve made many of this design (maybe 15 – 20 sets with twelve joints in each set – 200 joints or more) without an issue and was hoping to find a solution to the broken joint that I now have.

- greatview


It is just a matter of time before they start failing one after the other. Even the cheapest frames should not rely on butt joint as it is the weakest of all known glue joints.
Adding a spline in your case seems to be the easiest and most tangible option.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8638 posts in 2938 days


#19 posted 07-16-2017 08:05 PM



On end grain joints, I always spread a very thin coat of glue on both surfaces. (I use TBII, also). I use my finger and really work it in. When it dries it has effectively sealed the pores so it won t suck up the new glue and starve the joint. Which, I suspect happened in your case.

- Gene Howe

Glue sizing is wise ^^

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2203 posts in 2159 days


#20 posted 07-16-2017 08:32 PM

It is just a matter of time before they start failing one after the other. Even the cheapest frames should not rely on butt joint as it is the weakest of all known glue joints.
Adding a spline in your case seems to be the easiest and most tangible option.

I agree couldn’t have said it better or nicer.
If you continue to build this way its a step in the wrong direction.And will be considered poor craftsmanship.

-- Aj

View greatview's profile

greatview

135 posts in 3519 days


#21 posted 07-16-2017 09:03 PM

I was really looking for a solution to my single bad joint. I’ve been making similar joints since 1977 or before and have had but one failure that I know of. The nesting tables I’ve made for many years with my first failure recently. I’ve made over 350 picture frames mostly of cherry and the only failures have been when a frame (with glass, etc.) has fallen to the floor. I appreciate the suggestions of a spline, biscuit and so forth. After over forty years of successfully making this joint I think I’ve got it where I want it. I’ve just started on another batch and will consider modifying the joint to include something to strengthen it but I will probably go with what has worked for forty plus years. At the current age of 76, I doubt that I’ll be around for forty more years.

-- Tom, New London, NH

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com