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Newbie trying to cut 12/4 Hard maple with my new Delta 36-725

by sethpackham
posted 07-13-2017 11:51 PM


44 replies so far

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4157 days


#1 posted 07-13-2017 11:57 PM

Even 3hp saws will bog down on 12/4 hard
woods. Perhaps your saw won’t do it in one
pass. Try cutting at 1” depth, then re-cutting
at 2” and so forth.

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 1101 days


#2 posted 07-14-2017 12:05 AM

Try getting a good thin kerf 24 teeth blade. Freud Diablo is excellent

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1177 posts in 2071 days


#3 posted 07-14-2017 12:39 AM

If you are using the stock blade, go buy a better blade. Freud Diablo or Irwin Marples. Also that saw needs a full 20A circuit, check that your surge protector is rated for 20A and not 15A. Don’t use 14 or 16 gauge extension cords. I have that saw and use a Marples blade cutting 3” oak with no problem.

From Delta… A separate electrical circuit should be used for your machines. This circuit should not be less than #12 wire and should be protected with a 20-amp time lag fuse.

From Why Me …. Dump the surge power protector.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8334 posts in 3885 days


#4 posted 07-14-2017 01:10 AM

I’ll just reiterate all the great advice above. Along with getting a decent 24T thin kerf blade, double check the alignment, and check the supply circuit.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View MrUnix's profile (online now)

MrUnix

7478 posts in 2709 days


#5 posted 07-14-2017 01:22 AM

Sounds like a classic symptom of insufficient juice… and having a ‘surge protector’ doesn’t really give me the warm fuzzies either :)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#6 posted 07-14-2017 03:06 AM

Ok wow thanks for all that knowledge. I hadn’t considered that I would have to change electrical wiring in my garage. And I will definitely check out a new blade, another thing I didn’t anticipate being a thing, ha ha. But dang they are $$. My wife really has no clue what I’ve gotten into. But she wants custom furniture, so no complaints by me!

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 1996 days


#7 posted 07-14-2017 03:09 AM

Yep. Need better blades and for specific purposes will stock that thick. Among other things.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 892 days


#8 posted 07-14-2017 03:11 AM

Do you have any 20A outlets in your garage? If so, use them and ditch the surge protector. Either way, if your home has been built in the last 25 years, ditch the surge protector.

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#9 posted 07-14-2017 03:57 AM

I was running my table saw off a 15A outlet that was also running a refrigerator, an oscillating fan (it is hot and humid here in NC), a cordless drill battery charger, and my table saw on a 100ft extension cord all plugged into a power strip (the thing I calleda surge protector because it has a switch that kept tripping). I’m sure you are all laughing, but I’ve never given electrical capacity much thought.

Much to consider tomorrow when I check my circuit board to see if there is a second circuit in the garage. Ordering a 24 tooth Freud Diablo now (if I found the right thing, it is only $26 on Amazon).

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MrUnix

7478 posts in 2709 days


#10 posted 07-14-2017 04:18 AM

Keep doing stuff like that and your motor will get toasty and let the magic smoke out – and they ain’t cheap to replace.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#11 posted 07-14-2017 04:25 AM


Keep doing stuff like that and your motor will get toasty and let the magic smoke out – and they ain t cheap to replace.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

I think I am just living out the axiom in your signature, though I’m not very young. I will be careful to not burn it out. So what do people do? Add dedicated circuits in their garage for each large tool?

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8334 posts in 3885 days


#12 posted 07-14-2017 10:12 AM


Ok wow thanks for all that knowledge. I hadn t considered that I would have to change electrical wiring in my garage. And I will definitely check out a new blade, another thing I didn t anticipate being a thing, ha ha. But dang they are $$. My wife really has no clue what I ve gotten into. But she wants custom furniture, so no complaints by me!

- sethpackham

A suitable blade will start at around $30, so considering the significance of it’s role, that’s really a fairly small percentage of the cost of the saw. Irwin Marples (not Marathon or Classic), Freud Diablo, DeWalt Precision Trim, or CMT ITK Plus all make decent examples of the right blade at a reasonable cost. Lowes has the Hitachi 311128 for $23 that’s a decent blade, and should also be suitable for this task. For a bit more money, the Infinity 010-124, Freud Industrustrial LU87R010, or CMT Industrial 202.024.10 are a step up.

Tips for Picking Saw Blades

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1177 posts in 2071 days


#13 posted 07-14-2017 10:22 AM

A 100ft cord! Oh no, ditch it. I bet that cord is only 15A. You need a 20A cord and keep it to no more than 25ft.

Also a good blade is $40 and up. I suggest at least a 40 tooth blade.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

10933 posts in 1648 days


#14 posted 07-14-2017 12:53 PM


... So what do people do? Add dedicated circuits in their garage for each large tool?

- sethpackham

No need for a circuit for each tool unless you have them all running at the same time. I have a 15A circuit for lights and small things like battery chargers, a 20 A circuit I run all 110 power tools on and a 230V/30A circuit for my 230V tools.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

255 posts in 840 days


#15 posted 07-14-2017 01:34 PM

Get your circuiting right and check the saw for proper fence alignment, along with a new blade. at 1 ½ HP, you’re pushing the saw pretty hard and even a slight bind from misaligned fence can push ir over the limit.

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8334 posts in 3885 days


#16 posted 07-14-2017 01:36 PM



A 100ft cord! Oh no, ditch it. I bet that cord is only 15A. You need a 20A cord and keep it to no more than 25ft.

Also a good blade is $40 and up. I suggest at least a 40 tooth blade.

- WhyMe

For general purpose work 40T or more will tend to give a smoother cut, but for ripping 12/4 hard maple, 40T + are too many teeth for the task.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#17 posted 07-14-2017 02:13 PM

I ordered this Freud Diablo 24T blade from Amazon for $26: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008WQ2V/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I’ll post an update when I get it and try cutting that 12/4 maple.

Still investigating my electrical needs, but I’m learning a lot! Thank you all.

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#18 posted 07-14-2017 02:16 PM



No need for a circuit for each tool unless you have them all running at the same time. I have a 15A circuit for lights and small things like battery chargers, a 20 A circuit I run all 110 power tools on and a 230V/30A circuit for my 230V tools.

- HokieKen

So is the idea that this is a 13-amp tool, so it would be pushing too close to the max throughput of a 15A circuit? Does that mean my refrigerator and the oscillating fan were less than 2-amps total if I was able to power all three (albeit not steadily) on the same 15A circuit?

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

255 posts in 840 days


#19 posted 07-14-2017 02:22 PM

All circuits are rated at 80%. A 15 amp breaker will only give you 12 amps of useable current and a 20 will only give you 16.

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

255 posts in 840 days


#20 posted 07-14-2017 02:24 PM

That is, They will trip at those currents.

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 892 days


#21 posted 07-14-2017 02:28 PM

No it doesn’t work like that.

Do you have a garage door opener? There’s a good chance that it is on a dedicated circuit, you could use that to help spread the load.

So is the idea that this is a 13-amp tool, so it would be pushing too close to the max throughput of a 15A circuit? Does that mean my refrigerator and the oscillating fan were less than 2-amps total if I was able to power all three (albeit not steadily) on the same 15A circuit?

- sethpackham


View jonah's profile

jonah

2079 posts in 3808 days


#22 posted 07-14-2017 02:30 PM

As a general rule, you don’t want to be running anything on the same circuit as big power tools.

You also do not want to be using long extension cords for big power tools unless they are properly sized. 100 feet is the absolutely maximum length for a 12AWG thickness extension cord. I very much doubt you have a 12AWG cord running the saw. More like it’s a 14ga cord, and that just isn’t sufficient. You’re losing a ton of voltage over that length of wire at that thickness, which is causing your saw to struggle. It’s also causing the cord to heat up.

I’d also question the alignment of the saw. If the rip fence isn’t perfectly aligned with the blade, the wood can pinch behind the blade. You mention that. I’d bet that’s why you’re having some of the burning problems, as well as why it’s bogging down the motor. Look in the manual as well as online to find out how to align that saw’s fence with the blade.

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 892 days


#23 posted 07-14-2017 02:30 PM

That is incorrect, that’s just a general rule of thumb for loading up a circuit. You can easily pull a over 15 amps continually and the same 15 amp breaker will never trip. Same thing for a 20 amp breaker.


All circuits are rated at 80%. A 15 amp breaker will only give you 12 amps of useable current and a 20 will only give you 16.

- Sparks500


View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#24 posted 07-14-2017 02:31 PM


All circuits are rated at 80%. A 15 amp breaker will only give you 12 amps of useable current and a 20 will only give you 16.

- Sparks500

Does that mean my 13-amp saw doesn’t actually require all 13 amps continuously, but maxes out at 13-amps? I obviously powered my 13-amp saw, a refrigerator, a fan, and a 12v battery charger (but it did eventually trip with the thick wood) on a 15A circuit. Learning here.

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#25 posted 07-14-2017 02:37 PM



No it doesn t work like that.

Do you have a garage door opener? There s a good chance that it is on a dedicated circuit, you could use that to help spread the load.
- Gilley23


Yeah, I do, an outlet in the ceiling. I’d actually been considering hanging a retracting cord from up there. I’ll have to check what circuit it is on. Thanks for the idea.

View DangerDoug's profile

DangerDoug

83 posts in 2156 days


#26 posted 07-14-2017 02:45 PM

Seth,
Careful with these combinations, eventually you could burn something up, the breaker or worse.
[some don’t last long if they keep popping]
You’d want to run a separate 20 circuit up there, any spaces in your electrical panel?

A temporary fix is plugging into the washing machine outlet, they are 20amp or the outlets in the kitchen.
Use a thick cord—short as possible.

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

255 posts in 840 days


#27 posted 07-14-2017 02:52 PM

Not been my experience. 27 years of electrical service work. Some really crappy breakers won’t trip at those currents, but a Square D will.


That is incorrect, that s just a general rule of thumb for loading up a circuit. You can easily pull a over 15 amps continually and the same 15 amp breaker will never trip. Same thing for a 20 amp breaker.

All circuits are rated at 80%. A 15 amp breaker will only give you 12 amps of useable current and a 20 will only give you 16.

- Sparks500

- Gilley23

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 892 days


#28 posted 07-14-2017 03:01 PM

Circuit breakers are not factory rated at 80% of their label, plain and simple. There is not one single properly functioning circuit breaker that will only allow 80% of its full rating. I’m taking about normal magnetic trip breakers here, not adjustable models.

The 80% is just a general rule of loading up a single circuit.

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

255 posts in 840 days


#29 posted 07-14-2017 03:16 PM

So, I just imagined all those breakers tripping at 17 amps continuous load?

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View Gilley23's profile

Gilley23

489 posts in 892 days


#30 posted 07-14-2017 03:20 PM

Yes.

Ok can we now get back to the discussion of the effectiveness of lotion on a raincoat?


So, I just imagined all those breakers tripping at 17 amps continuous load?

- Sparks500


View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 1101 days


#31 posted 07-14-2017 03:38 PM

All circuits are rated at 80%. A 15 amp breaker will only give you 12 amps of useable current and a 20 will only give you 16.

- Sparks500

Does that mean my 13-amp saw doesn t actually require all 13 amps continuously, but maxes out at 13-amps? I obviously powered my 13-amp saw, a refrigerator, a fan, and a 12v battery charger (but it did eventually trip with the thick wood) on a 15A circuit. Learning here.

- sethpackham

A magnetic breaker let you for a very short time to significantly overload the circuit. An induction motor draws approximately 2 to 5 times more at start than at the nominal load. However the time is very short. It will let you start a table saw but fail to start a dust collector as the latter accelerates significantly slower due to the massive impeller.
In your case I assume you start your table saw very frequently and do not load it to the full load often.
You can discard the charger as it draws very little current. The refrigerator consumes normally around 180 W ie 2A. Besides it is mostly off and kicks in infrequently. So…
1. If you start your saw when the fridge is off you are safe.
2. If you start your saw when the fridge is on you are almost as safe.
3. If you start your saw when the fridge is just starting you either trip the breaker or burn down either fridge or the saw or both.
4. If in the middle of difficult cut the fridge kicks in you ( see p.3)

3 and 4 happens rarely.

View rodneywt1180b's profile

rodneywt1180b

185 posts in 896 days


#32 posted 07-14-2017 03:59 PM

Looks like the most likely causes have been covered.

The right blade-a dedicated rip blade for ripping thick stock.
Also make sure the blade is sharp.
Power requirements. A 20 amp circuit and a short cord run is best.
Make sure your blade is aligned with your miter gauge slot and that your fence is parallel to the blade.

If all this is right and you still have trouble you may need to make multiple passes on thick stock.

I have a 70+ year old Walker Turner table saw with a 1 HP motor. I can cut 3” maple and oak with it though I have to feed it slower than I would with a higher HP saw.

-- Rodney, Centralia, WA, USA www.etsy.com/shop/ASturdyStick

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8334 posts in 3885 days


#33 posted 07-14-2017 04:13 PM


I ordered this Freud Diablo 24T blade from Amazon for $26: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008WQ2V/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I ll post an update when I get it and try cutting that 12/4 maple.

Still investigating my electrical needs, but I m learning a lot! Thank you all.

- sethpackham

That’s $26 well spent, and will likely be the most significant improvement for this task.

One other thing I haven’t seen mentioned is how flat and straight the stock is. Jointed lumber that’s straight and flat tends to be easier to cut than lumber with deviations that cause rocking, twisting, etc.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1177 posts in 2071 days


#34 posted 07-14-2017 05:45 PM

So is the idea that this is a 13-amp tool, so it would be pushing too close to the max throughput of a 15A circuit? Does that mean my refrigerator and the oscillating fan were less than 2-amps total if I was able to power all three (albeit not steadily) on the same 15A circuit?

- sethpackham

Your main problem is voltage drop using the 100ft cord and if it’s one of those general purpose orange ones it is most likely only 16 AWG and rated at 13A. When voltage goes down the amp draw goes up, so the saw under load could easily pull way beyond the rated 13A.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1177 posts in 2071 days


#35 posted 07-14-2017 06:07 PM



Also a good blade is $40 and up. I suggest at least a 40 tooth blade.

- WhyMe

For general purpose work 40T or more will tend to give a smoother cut, but for ripping 12/4 hard maple, 40T + are too many teeth for the task.

- knotscott

I use a 50T combination blade and it rips just fine. If doing just a bunch of rough ripping then 24T is okay. For a all around use blade I still suggest at least 40T, but it should be a combination blade.

View crank49's profile

crank49

4032 posts in 3481 days


#36 posted 07-14-2017 07:42 PM

That 180 watt figure for a fridge is misleading. That is more like the average power consumption. The compressor in the fridge uses more like 600 to 800 watts while it is running. But the compressor only runs maybe 30% of the time.
Still, if it’s on the circuit with your saw and the compressor decides to start while you are in the middle of a cut that will add another (600W/115V) = 5.2 amps load to the already overloaded circuit. Anything that starts automatically should be on a circuit by itself.

View BenDupre's profile

BenDupre

722 posts in 998 days


#37 posted 07-15-2017 01:17 AM

Try a better blade. Change to a rip blade for ripping. Get a 12 ga cord and if possible 20 A circuit. Make sure your fridge isnt on the same leg as your saw. If all else fails, take it slow.

-- The problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred. – George Bernard Shaw

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#38 posted 07-20-2017 02:55 AM

UPDATE: I got a new 24T Freud Diablo blade and did some more adjusting of my blade. It was off very slightly and I had to shift the motor to get the blade aligned front to back. I had to loosen two nuts on the far motor connection and it was very hard to reach, but eventually got to them while lying down under the saw. Then I also made sure blade was perfectly vertical.

New setup made beautiful cuts with almost no burning or pinching. Very flat and square cuts! I still went slowly but it seemed to handle the job comfortably. I’m very happy with it now, so thank you all for your help.

Next big task is figuring out how to handle dust. It is everywhere and all over me. Right now I just vacuum the floor and blow garage clean afterward. I only have an old Ridgid shop vac with 1.25” hose.

View Dustin's profile

Dustin

698 posts in 1250 days


#39 posted 07-20-2017 12:58 PM



UPDATE: I got a new 24T Freud Diablo blade and did some more adjusting of my blade. It was off very slightly and I had to shift the motor to get the blade aligned front to back. I had to loosen two nuts on the far motor connection and it was very hard to reach, but eventually got to them while lying down under the saw. Then I also made sure blade was perfectly vertical.

New setup made beautiful cuts with almost no burning or pinching. Very flat and square cuts! I still went slowly but it seemed to handle the job comfortably. I m very happy with it now, so thank you all for your help.

Next big task is figuring out how to handle dust. It is everywhere and all over me. Right now I just vacuum the floor and blow garage clean afterward. I only have an old Ridgid shop vac with 1.25” hose.

- sethpackham

Seth,
Glad you got everything working! In the event you ever have to readjust: I have the same saw, and aligning the blade to the miter slot is made a little easier if you remove the back panel. It makes it a good deal easier to reach the bolts you need to access.

As for the dust, I’d be surprised if the collection on this saw using the provided 2.5” port is any better than 65-70% (just eyeballing, no real measurements here). If you don’t have one, I like using my air scrubber from Grizzly in combination with a large fan: to keep stuff off of me and suspended long enough for the filter to grab it. Prior to that, the dust haze in my garage was noticeable. Now it clears up fairly quickly after cutting operations are finished. And if your concerned about the health of your lungs, a good respirator is highly recommended.

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

View sethpackham's profile

sethpackham

12 posts in 834 days


#40 posted 07-20-2017 01:12 PM



Seth,
Glad you got everything working! In the event you ever have to readjust: I have the same saw, and aligning the blade to the miter slot is made a little easier if you remove the back panel. It makes it a good deal easier to reach the bolts you need to access.

As for the dust, I d be surprised if the collection on this saw using the provided 2.5” port is any better than 65-70% (just eyeballing, no real measurements here). If you don t have one, I like using my air scrubber from Grizzly in combination with a large fan: to keep stuff off of me and suspended long enough for the filter to grab it. Prior to that, the dust haze in my garage was noticeable. Now it clears up fairly quickly after cutting operations are finished. And if your concerned about the health of your lungs, a good respirator is highly recommended.

- Dustin

Dustin – thanks for the tips! I did remove the back panel for aligning the blade to the miter slot. It was just very difficult to reach past the motor to the far (front) set of hex nuts on the post that holds the motor. Adjusting only the nearest set couldn’t get me aligned.

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1452 posts in 3271 days


#41 posted 07-20-2017 02:36 PM

Loren’s advice above is always good. I have a $4,000 5 hp 220 volt 12” saw and I still have trouble in a 4” deep cut in softwood.

As Loren said, make progressively deep cuts until you get the wood sawed into. I usually make a cut slightly half way through and then flip the work over lengthwise keeping the same work face to the saw fence. Just make sure the work is held firmly against the saw fence during these cuts. This is the time to use a “finger board” or another jig to apply pressure to the work to keep it firmly against the fence. As long as you do this you should have a relatively smooth cut surface.

And this method doesn’t cost anything.

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View 2727's profile

2727

1 post in 820 days


#42 posted 07-20-2017 03:16 PM

To Sethpackham, if problem of binding persists, wedge your kerf with a shim of wood to keep it from closing on the blade and binding or even burning. DON’T use a screw driver, an obvious and handy temptation. You may have to keep adding successive wedges.as the cut gets longer to keep it open. Also , don’t over wedge or it will affect the way a thin piece rides the fence.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8334 posts in 3885 days


#43 posted 07-20-2017 07:09 PM



UPDATE: I got a new 24T Freud Diablo blade and did some more adjusting of my blade. It was off very slightly and I had to shift the motor to get the blade aligned front to back. I had to loosen two nuts on the far motor connection and it was very hard to reach, but eventually got to them while lying down under the saw. Then I also made sure blade was perfectly vertical.

New setup made beautiful cuts with almost no burning or pinching. Very flat and square cuts! I still went slowly but it seemed to handle the job comfortably. I m very happy with it now, so thank you all for your help.

- sethpackham

Keep that new blade clean for best results and longer edge life. Once the saw is dialed in, and the electrical stuff is remedied, if you still have any burning, raising the blade a little higher will help.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Mainiac Matt 's profile

Mainiac Matt

9314 posts in 2838 days


#44 posted 07-20-2017 07:18 PM

If you make progressively deeper cuts, keep an eye for the wood moving in between cuts and pinching the blade on the next pass.

Internal stresses in the wood are relieved and wood moves.

Even a high powered saw will struggle if out of alignment.

-- Matt -- I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam

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