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Dust Gorilla or V series Owners performance input requested

by Carl10
posted 02-24-2017 06:18 PM


46 replies so far

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

6017 posts in 3379 days


#1 posted 02-24-2017 06:59 PM

Sorry I can’t comment on that model. It does look identical to my Tempest 2 hp cyclone, which has fantastic separation. A sprinkling in the cleanout, if anything with extended use.

In general I have found the tall cyclones have stellar separation. Hopefully you can get some model-specific information with your question here. Most of the complaints I have read were reviewers expecting 100% collection. One reviewer even said he weighed the dust somehow, and was complaining that according to his calculations it only captured 98% of the dust.

To me, that is splitting hairs.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#2 posted 02-25-2017 02:25 AM

pintodeluxe,

Thanks for the input. That is good to know but it appears PSI no longer makes cyclones. Several weeks ago I went to their site and the link to cyclones was dead. Today the link is gone from their site. I am glad you have good separation, that is key. From what I could gather they use a neutral vane that is strictly extending the inlet tube into the upper body, They do not appear to use an air ramp. Out of curiosity do you remember if your impeller is backward curved? Also could you tell me the circumference of the upper body (just below the inlet).

Thanks,

Carl

View Paul Mayer's profile

Paul Mayer

1082 posts in 3631 days


#3 posted 02-25-2017 04:04 AM

Hi Pintodeluxe,

With all due respect, 98% separation in a cyclone would be horrible, and even 99% would not even be close to acceptable to me. 98% would mean that for every 50 gallon barrel full of dust, you would end up with a gallon of dust in the filter. I would SWAG that you’d see a 25 – 40% decline in CFM by the time you emptied the drum every time. And you would have a very hard time cleaning that much dust out of a filter without removing the filter and taking a leaf blower to it. I would much rather have a single stage dust collection system, where I could just smack the filters and knock down the dust, than a cyclone that got only 98% separation, or even 99%

The good cyclones run well above 99% separation. For each time that you empty the drum, you should see no more than a couple tablespoons of dust in the filter basin. 2 tablespoons for each 50 gallon drum = 99.98%. Two tablespoons vs. 1 gallon is not splitting hairs in my view. I would suggest thinking differently about the math here. You’re thinking 98 is almost equal to 100, so what’s the dif, right? The way that I think about it is that 1 gallon that you get at 98% is more than 100 TIMES more dust than the 2 Tablespoons you get with 99.98%.

-- Paul Mayer, http://youtube.com/c/toolmetrix

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#4 posted 02-25-2017 12:47 PM

I measured the separation of MY SDG at Oneida’s request. My method was to empty the bin and clean the filter as absolutely good as I could (this was a multi step process which got all the dust out that was going to come out). I think used the cyclone until the dust bin was full. I measured the height of the chips in the bin and calculated the volume because I didn’t have the means to weigh it. I then cleaned the filter again, exactly as before but this time I captured all the fines in a container. I then measured that volume. When all was said and done I got 98.4% separation, Oneida claims 99%. Close enough that I call it even. Like Pmayer said, I consider that woefully inadequate and my complaints on forums is what led to Oneida contacting me to “help” with the issue. In the end I wound up working with a Mr. Witter (President and founder), and after he found out I was getting 98.4%, I never heard from them again. I hope to someday (this year maybe) replace this POS with a CV. When I’m running a drum sander a lot, I can actually see the filter clog with a gauge I have on the unit. I had to put the gauge on to keep track of the many times I needed to clean the fines out. The issue with the Oneida units is the basic design, if you read the Pentz criteria the Oneida doesn’t follow anything close to the what he found to work best.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1745 posts in 3375 days


#5 posted 02-25-2017 05:02 PM

You will not be disappointed in the 3 hp gust gorilla,,,,,,thats what i have in my home shop.

daytime shop,,,,,we have the 5hp dust gorilla

Both setups are fitted with metal spiral pipe.

The only time i find dust in the filter pan is if the barrel gets full and then you get some bypass

At my home shop , I removed the filter about 6 yrs ago and vented to the outside with a flapper hood in the gable

Works well.

If i had to select a unit for best all around in both construction and design it would be a super dust gorilla.

Enjoy the journey!

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#6 posted 02-25-2017 06:35 PM

pmayer – Thanks for the reminder on perspective, a small difference can result in a lot of dust!

Fred – I have seen your comments a feel your frustration. I am sure you have impacted at least one sale if not more and I would think Oneida would have done more to resolve the issue.

cabmaker – glad to hear you are happy with both your units and their performance

Carl

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4286 posts in 2554 days


#7 posted 02-25-2017 06:43 PM

I have a 5 hp SDG and have absolutely no issues with separation. I have almost no dust in my filters and have emptied the bin out many times. I also monitor the filter with a gauge and have no problem with clogging. I have had my SDG for about 10 months.

Of course Pentz is critical of the Oneida as he designed the CV and Oneida is the competitor.

Please note that I do not have a drum sander. Most of what is in my bin is from the saw and planer. If you have one and use it a lot, you are generating a large amount of fine dust and you will get more dust into the filter.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#8 posted 02-25-2017 06:52 PM

For the record (and I’m really not trying to start a fight) I haven’t read anything Pentz said that was critical of Oneida’s design, and he doesn’t own CV (though he gets a small royalty from the sales) so he really doesn’t have a competitive issue with Oneida. Any criticism above was my own. I’ve only heard Pentz explain what his findings were on separation and how he come to the design criteria he settled on. On the other hand, Bill Witter was mildly critical of Pentz in phone conversions with me. But all my comments are based on my own experience, and as they say: YMMV. Carl, regarding impacting Oneida’s sales: I have no idea, I can only hope that’s happened. If so, I’m suspect someone wound up with better performance using a different brand.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4286 posts in 2554 days


#9 posted 02-25-2017 07:15 PM

Just as another point of data….I just went down and emptied my SDG. I very carefully looked at my bin and filter.

The bin was full at 35 gallons.

I then took the time and used compresses air to carefully clean out the filter and measured the volume of that plus whatever had already fallen in the bottom. I got about a cup and half of fine dust or 0.09375 gallons.

So by volume, 99.73% went into the bin and 0.26% into the filter.

How do I explain the difference in separation results? The only difference is that I do not run a drum sander and the finer dust may be harder to separate.

A single experimental result is just that. In order to have meaningful data you need to do this multiple times.

In addition, I monitor my dust filter pressure and it stays within a narrow range and does not indicate filter clogging.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#10 posted 02-25-2017 07:36 PM

I agree with your conclusion about the fine dust, that’s what I have experienced as well. It performs quite well for everything else. Also with the need to repeat the test (something I’m not planning on doing). I started my filter cleaning process by setting it on the floor (covering the top) and giving it a hand slap around the circumference, then the air gun from the outside. After that, I laid it on it’s side and picked each end up about 18” and dropped it. Rotate the filter about 90° and repeat. After doing that 4 times stand it back up…in my case a lot more of the fines fell out. As an aside, the only time I ever found anything in that canister that clamps on the bottom was the one time I over filled the dust bin, then some of the chips that blew by wound up in there.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4286 posts in 2554 days


#11 posted 02-25-2017 09:47 PM

Given all of the above, there are a couple of things that I want to point out.

Smaller particles are more hazardous because they can be drawn more deeply into the lungs.

Sanding seems to generate very fine particles even under 1 micron. It is probably the worst operation in a shop in terms of small particle generation.

Cyclones are very good at separating larger particles above 30 microns. The efficiency drops off as you get smaller. I guess the real question is how each cyclone design handles these under 10 micron particles. To determine this would take a very good research study. As I have read today, sampling and measuring these particle sizes is difficult.

I want a cyclone with sufficient capability to suck up as much as possible. I have that but need to work on the capture of the dust at the point they are generated, dust hoods and such. In my opinion, this is the most difficult part. I really am not too worried if my cyclone efficiency is 98%, 99% or 99.9%. It just means I may have to clean the filter slightly more often. There is little doubt that using a drum sander results lots of very fine dust that needs a good cyclone design. Whose design is the best? I have yet to see any test results that are credible in terms of separating small particles.

The bottom line is to remove the particles and avoid breathing them.

Since sanding creates lots of fine particles, I want my ROS sander to be efficient at sucking up the particles. For that reason, it has to be designed well and connected to a vacuum because they have a much higher static pressure. I use a HEPA rated vac for my sander and an air filter.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#12 posted 02-26-2017 01:47 AM

Redoak – It is good to hear your results and I appreciate you taking the time to measure your bypass. I too would be happy with your results, but I do not have a drum sander (yet). I understand and agree with the concern of the small particle issue. I believe the human eye can not see smaller than 40 micron particles, so all the dust that got through the old 30 micron single stage bags was still filling the air…we just couldn’t see it!

Fred – It sounds like the sander is the weakness for the Oneida’s. I talked with a V3000 owner and he has similar problems with caking on his filter after a couple of 35 gallons full (he has a sander as well). I had previously looked at the Thein baffle, and although it does a decent separation job it does not seem to compare to a cyclone (both in separation and efficiency). What it does allow is to adjust the baffle opening and I believe vortex height to fine tune the material to separate. So you could make it great at fines but terrible for chips or vise versa. What some guys did was put a baffle right at their planner to pre-filter the chips. I don’t know if you have found any feedback from CV owners that have sanders about separation. Regardless which Cyclone you use long term a pre separator might help if that is a general cyclone weakness. I have seen a lot of comments about how great they are just not specifics of they are used.

Thanks for your comments guys.

Carl

View Paul Mayer's profile

Paul Mayer

1082 posts in 3631 days


#13 posted 02-26-2017 02:33 AM

“I really am not too worried if my cyclone efficiency is 98%, 99% or 99.9%”

This is a common perception until people end up with a machine that only separates at 98.X% and they realize what an absolute pain it is to maintain, and then they hear stories about other guys with an efficient cyclone that almost never has to be cleaned. I think that the cyclone manufacturers do a disservice to consumers by publishing numbers this way, but it is easy for them to all sound really good with this model of measurement so why not? It makes the differences between 98% to 99.9% sound trivial, and that could not be further from the truth.

If the comparisons were based on “tablespoons in filter / 50 gallons in drum” which is really what matters (who cares how much is in the drum, you don’t have to clean that), now the comparison of machine A (98%) to machine B (99.98%) would be 100:1. If it was stated that way, I think people would care. If something is important, as I believe this measurement absolutely is, it’s hard to believe that people wouldn’t be indifferent if one machine were 100 times better at it than the other machine. But people think, well it’s not even 2% better so who cares. Another way to look at it; machine A puts 9900% more dust (that’s not a typo; nearly 10,000%) into the filter than machine B. If the inefficiencies were compared in this way, which is equally mathematically correct and far more indicative of the experiential difference, then people would have a much better understanding of the difference in what they would find in their filter when it was time to clean it.

-- Paul Mayer, http://youtube.com/c/toolmetrix

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

6017 posts in 3379 days


#14 posted 02-26-2017 05:00 AM


pintodeluxe,

Thanks for the input. That is good to know but it appears PSI no longer makes cyclones. Several weeks ago I went to their site and the link to cyclones was dead. Today the link is gone from their site. I am glad you have good separation, that is key. From what I could gather they use a neutral vane that is strictly extending the inlet tube into the upper body, They do not appear to use an air ramp. Out of curiosity do you remember if your impeller is backward curved? Also could you tell me the circumference of the upper body (just below the inlet).

Thanks,

Carl

- Carl10

Carl,
The circumference you asked about is 64”. Mine is a standard 14 or 15 inch impeller, not backwardly inclined.

Pmayer-
Okay, you have me convinced to pay more attention to the separation % numbers. I never saw a spec for my 2 hp Tempest, but it must be very close to 100% based on your explanation.

Duct layout also has something to do with it as well, especially decreasing turbulence near the cyclone inlet.

Great discussion, very interesting.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Paul Mayer's profile

Paul Mayer

1082 posts in 3631 days


#15 posted 02-26-2017 10:04 AM

“Duct layout also has something to do with it as well, especially decreasing turbulence near the cyclone inlet.”

This is a good point. The last stretch of duct that the dust travels before the cyclone matters a lot, to let the dust stabilize before entering the cyclone. The CV guys told me that ideally you have a 10’ straight pipe coming out of the cyclone before it makes any turns, but in most hobbyist shops that isn’t likely. But at least with that understanding you can do what you can in the space that you have. A few feet of straight pipe is better than no feet.

As redoak pointed out, particle size is a huge factor. I’ve heard a lot of cyclone owners complain about clogging with sanding dust. Before I got a CV I had a single stage Jet canister system before they added the wok inside of it. What a nightmare. Sanding dust didn’t land in the bag until the filter was so full it couldn’t take any more. I read about one woodworker who was having a similar experience as Fred with his SDG and he stopped using it for his drum sander altogether which improved the situation on the SDG a lot. Instead he bought a 1.5 hp single stage system with a bag and hooked it directly to the sander, and he just smacks down the bag ever so often which is a lot easier than cleaning the filter on a cyclone. Not ideal, but “good enough”.

Carl, I hope we get some input on your original question, as this would be interesting data. I hear a wide variance on separation experience from SDG owners (as we’ve already seen here with only a couple data points), and I haven’t heard or read much from V Systems owners.

-- Paul Mayer, http://youtube.com/c/toolmetrix

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#16 posted 02-26-2017 12:38 PM

This is/has been a good discussion. The problem caused by the lack of separation I have (besides the reduction in air flow as the filter clogged) was that after many cleanings, I could not get the filter cleaned anymore. I guess the dust plugged the pores up so badly the particles wouldn’t fall out. This happened in a matter of 6 years (OEM Oneida filter) and the replacements aren’t cheap.I bought an aftermarket filter to replace, and just recently bought another one to have a spare on hand just in case.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4286 posts in 2554 days


#17 posted 02-26-2017 02:19 PM

It is pretty clear to me that drum sanders are a difficult problem for dust collectors…difficulty for any cyclone to separate very fine particles, the amount of dust, and the fine particle size. The fine dust also poses the greatest health risks. One that I had not considered before is that filter life goes down when the amount of very fine particles goes up.

I have wanted to get a drum sander but have held off due to the costs. I guess one has to also consider the costs of running a dust collector as you may need to replace the filter sooner.

I think that a comment made earlier about a Thien baffle is likely not correct. Adding a Thien baffle before a cyclone IMHO is not a good idea. It will increase static pressure and reduce air flow. I do not see any way a Thien baffle will do a better job at separation than a cyclone. They operate in a similar way but the cyclone is a better design.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#18 posted 02-26-2017 02:25 PM

I think that’s true, when i was communicating with Oneida about my unit one of the things (among several) they asked was what grit was I running on my DS and would I mail them a sample of the dust from the filter (I did).

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#19 posted 02-26-2017 02:28 PM

Well this has been an interesting discussion and I realized I should have not been so narrow minded in my view of cyclones. So I will start a new thread asking for input from all Cyclone owners. I hope this helps anyone looking at cyclones.

Thanks for everyone who has contributed so far.

Carl

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#20 posted 08-08-2017 08:06 PM

So what conclusion has been established? I’m looking at getting a good dust collections system soon and want to be done with the first purchase if possible. I plan on either spiral or PVC duct and can place so as to follow any minimum ducting requirements. I have a copy of Woodshop Dust Control Revised and Updated but that appears to be dated 2002. At least that’s the only date I can see. I did talk to Lisa at Oneida this morning about a used unit I saw on Craig’s List in my area but it’s a long discontinued unit that they stopped production on due to design concerns. And the asking price was $600 more than new. I was steered toward the V3000 unit which for all I can see is a nice unit, at least for what little I know about these. Then I looked at Laguna’s PFlux3…..well you get the idea. Too many to consider and too little experience to make an informed decision….yet.

Steve

-- Steve, Virginia

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#21 posted 08-08-2017 08:10 PM

Steve, just curious…what model was discontinued over design concerns? I recently bought a CV and will be selling (maybe) my Oneida.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#22 posted 08-08-2017 08:48 PM

XXP020100 / XXP030100 The 020100 is 2.5 HP and the 030100 is 3 HP.

Steve

-- Steve, Virginia

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#23 posted 08-09-2017 03:08 AM

Steve,

I never finished my research/testing, but I did a lot of research both in reading numerous research papers and talking with actual owners of equipment. The research repeatedly stated that cone height is probably one of the biggest contributors to cyclone efficiency. The taller the cone (not the body) up to 5x the diameter will increase efficiency. The shorter cone cyclones available are classified as high throughput (not high efficiency). The cone angle is what I have found to distinguish better performance (separation not flow),

The other feature that is most researched is inlet geometry. Every research paper I came across looked at rectangular inlet proportions to optimize efficiency. No one considered a round inlet to improve performance. Interestingly Oneida used to make a square inlet but switched to round (assumedly for cost reasons).

What got me started down this path was a comment I saw from someone who was told by an Oneida rep that the V series was the most efficient cyclone they sell (I tried to get that confirmed but my rep was not aware of that point). Knowing that cone height is so significant it made sense. It also followed the design style of the Dust Deputy. The feedback was a bit mixed, all were very happy with the system, but the fine drum sander dust (or similar) was a challenge.

The Clear Vue incorporates most of what should be in a high performance cyclone. If you don’t generate the fine type of dust from a sander then most of the 3HP+ units from Grizzly and Oneida should also serve you well. If the Penn State Tempest was still available it seemed to be a good performer (not built the best).

Hope that helps.

Carl

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#24 posted 08-09-2017 03:11 AM

Fred,

Now that you have a CV, how is your separation with your drum sander? Can you provide any feedback on the amount of bypass you see per say 10 gallons of dust?

Thanks,

Carl

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#25 posted 08-09-2017 03:21 AM

Thanks Carl,

I suspect that usage will make a big difference. I do have a Supermax 19-38 but it will be used for end finish sanding while the jointer and planer will do the most work getting the wood to its proper size. I expect the majority of the sanding to be light passes several times and then finish sanding with the orbital sander. That plus the fact that it’s a personal home shop it won’t have heavy usage like a commercial shop. I’m still leaning towards the V3000 and hard piping. Thanks for all the input. I still have some research to do but hope to make a decision in the next 30 days or so unless a really good deal arises.

Steve

-- Steve, Virginia

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4286 posts in 2554 days


#26 posted 08-09-2017 11:29 AM

I still think that both ClearVue and Oneida make very good cyclones and that either will work fine. I have the Oneida 5 hp for a year now and very happy with it. The biggest challenge is getting your duct work figured out and completed . Metal ductwork is great but not cheap. I went with 8” for a distance but the majority is 6” DWV and works fine.

View edapp's profile

edapp

325 posts in 1995 days


#27 posted 08-09-2017 12:32 PM

Great discussion, but difficult topic. I have been shopping for a cyclone for awhile now and am currently settled on the V3000. The factors the ductwork plays combined with the usage (sanding, planing, cutting etc) make this really hard to get a clear expectation for any hypothetical system. My goal will be to follow the ducting guidelines as closely as possible (right sized pipe, straight runs into the inlet, large sweeping 90’s etc). I do not have the ceiling height for the CV and the V3000 seems to be the next step down in performance as far as seperation goes. Have read way too many poor reviews of the laguna and other short cyclones to consider them. I will report back when i get my system together, but it will likely be into the winter of 2017.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#28 posted 08-09-2017 12:40 PM



Fred,

Now that you have a CV, how is your separation with your drum sander? Can you provide any feedback on the amount of bypass you see per say 10 gallons of dust?

Thanks,

Carl

- Carl10

Carl, I wish I could. We moved last year and I built a new shop. Last April I started working on getting it drywalled (too old to do it myself anymore) and it still isn’t finished. So the CV is sitting boxed up with my other tools in the garage waiting for me to have a functional shop. Drywall is now scheduled for the first week of Oct, so it may be next spring before i have anything running.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#29 posted 08-09-2017 12:50 PM

Yes the discussion has been timely for me as well. I had no idea the subject would be so deep. I mean it’s a vacume kind of. But I never considered the type of dust. I found and watched a few good videos on WWGOA on dust collection and although George had a Laguna PFLUX3 unit in his video the basic content was stressed on piping the unit, using long radius ells, smooth straight flex pipe where necessary and keeping that as short as possible and paying particular attention to diameter and reductions. I have to admit that I really liked the dust bin collector system on it with the lift and easy to remove dust bin.

As a retired HVAC I’m very familiar with airflow. All my ducts were sealed when we built our house, all duct was sheet metal wrapped with a bubble insulation, and sized to maintain flow to the end. Flex duct was only used in very small runs to connect to the registers and kept short, tight, and straight. I never installed systems with fiberglass duct board for two main reasons: fiberglass particles would become loose in the air stream over time and the surface was rough causing reduced air flow. I actually worked on a system one extremely hot day dreading having to get in the attic where the air handler was. A quick cursory look at the outdoor unit showed signs it was definitely putting out some cool air. Turns out when the system was installed way back when they used styrofoam as the duct material. I climbed into the attic and it was wonderful. Very cool and breezy. Part of the main trunk line had blown apart. Easy but expensive fix replacing the duct with the appropriate duct system. Never saw another system like that thankfully. I would have loved to read the static pressure on that system beforehand…

-- Steve, Virginia

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#30 posted 08-10-2017 02:31 AM

Steve,

I was initially enamored by the PFLUX3 as well. As more people started getting delivery of them a retrofit was made available to improve performance, It was a restrictor plate (about 1”-1.5” wide strip of metal) that attaches across the bottom of the cone (discharge opening). Even with the plate the separation is not (and really could not be) on par with the Oneida’s and CV’s (or Grizzly), simply due to its size. Regarding the dust bin lift, I just read a user that was complaining that the seal was not as good the more you use the lift (I would think there would be an adjustment on the spring tension for just such an issue).

The other good thing about Oneida and CV is they are made in the US. Aside of other reasons, time is the benefit. I asked Laguna about a part for the PFLUX and they quoted me 6 weeks for the boat to arrive (that would be a big chunk of shop season without a dust collector).

Whatever you decide, please let us know.

Hope that helps,

Carl

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#31 posted 09-09-2017 12:10 AM

Well I had a great conversation with CV about their CV1800 bundle. Looks like a great system and great specs. The biggest difference I saw was a 5HP single phase motor vs the V300’s 3 hp. Wall mount vs free standing. The noise level @ 10’ is rated at 79Db.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Steve

-- Steve, Virginia

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#32 posted 09-09-2017 01:42 AM

I used to have the 3hp SDG, but now run three collectors instead. The reason is, I’m retired and the collector gets turned on and off often, which is tough on 3hp and bigger SDG’s and similar units.

The SDG is worth the money and better than what I currently have, which is a plastic Super Dust Deputy in front of one of my 3hp Jets (two bags and two canisters). After about ten or fifteen dumps of the 55 gallon drum, there is, maybe, a half gallon of fines in the two bags under the canisters.

My collector tends a lathe, a table saw, a jointer, a planer and a sanding station. As well, it does floor duty. Because it seems to spend most time on the sanding table and floor duty, it deals with a lot of fines. Of course, the lathe, jointer and planer fill the drum quickest.

In the end, I would not be without a cyclone, even if it only had a “mere” 98% efficiency. I’d prefer the SDG, but the other units make more sense for my repeated stop and goes.

I should mention, I am a fanatic about keeping a good seal between the cyclone and the collection drum. Without it, the dust count in the collector goes way up.

View Carl10's profile

Carl10

115 posts in 1022 days


#33 posted 09-09-2017 02:02 AM

Steve,

I don’t have either machine but would compare the V5000 with the CV so you are comparing 5HP machines. The V machines are slightly shorter and can be mounted on the wall or in a stand. The CV is a great machine and has a lot more filtration area.

Kelly – Could you explain your concern about cycling the 3HP SDG vs. the Jet 3HP? Or is it because you spread over three machines now.

Thanks,

Carl

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#34 posted 09-09-2017 02:59 AM

Carl, ask the seller about turning the unit off an on several times throughout the day, if that’s going to be an issue. A few times, say, ten, seems like it wouldn’t be a big deal.

I don’t remember where I got the info. I switched to multiple units about three or four years ago.

Here is a statement from a forum: “The instruction that came with my Oneida cyclone suggests 6 starts or less per hour. It has a 3hp Baldor motor.”

View scrubs's profile

scrubs

46 posts in 826 days


#35 posted 09-09-2017 03:43 AM

1) Model & HP : 2HP Dust Gorilla Pro
2) Type of material in your bin : Everything. Dust, chips, shavings etc. table saw, planer, jointer, miter saw, drum sander, drill press.
3) How much material gets past your filter : Hard to say. I have not had it long and have only emptied the drum (35g steel) twice. The filter bucket at the bottom was checked both times but had nothing appreciable in it.
4) How often do you clean your filter and how much approximately comes out (You do clean your filter.). : see above
5) How long have you had your machine : < 2 mos

While I have not had it long I am extremely happy so far. For my small home shop 2HP was more than enough. I considered 3HP but it would have been overkill. I think the only limiting factor now is the dust port size and efficiently on my tools.

Ask away I’m happy to help if I can

-- It all seems like a good idea at some point...

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#36 posted 09-09-2017 12:30 PM

Having a background is airflow, retired HVAC Tech, I have a good understanding of airflow. That said, I also want to be sure the investment is solid. In particular I want to be sure that the unit is as efficient as possible and maintenance is reasonable. What I’m using now is adequate for some operations but yesterday taught me a lesson that I had forgotten. I was using a 3/8” straight cutter on my router to cut some slots in poplar for a jig I’m making on the router table and the fine dust was going everywhere. The Shopsmith dust collector I have that does a decent job on the table saw was only doing a barely fair job with this task. I realize the fence dust collection port is less than ideal and I haven’t built the cabinet for this router table (the table and lift assembly were supported by to saw horses) but even so the cloth filter was not holding the very fine dust in. I had seen that with cutting a piece of MDF back some weeks ago. I’m expecting these units, both rated at .5 micron, to do a much better job with this very fine dust. If it cost me a bit more I’d rather do it right first and not have to make sacrifices if it indeed works as promises.

My layout would be simple and the only ports that would stay connected to the system is the tablesaw and the SuperMax 19-38. I expect to pipe it using all metal and install quality blast gates. But I’d also have a minimum run of pipe of about 15-20’ for the main line and no more than 3-4 take-offs. Two would be dropped down from the ceiling to about 4’ and use a minimum of flex duct to connect to the mobile equipment jointer, planer, router table, Shopsmith, and so on. I don’t see having higher HP as overkill at these points and the efficiency, from all that I’m reading, will be in duct layout and sizing, least use of flex connections, but most importantly the filters themselves if the cyclone unit does the separation as reported. I know the Shopsmith unit I have can not handle the very fine dust but I did get a joint of 4” hose recently and as I expected did find it did a better job of collection when connected directly to the native 4” port on the tablesaw even though I had to use the reducer to connect another 10’ 2-1/2” hose as I didn’t have a reducer to fit the unit to the 4” hose. I was slightly surprised but happy to see what I was hoping/expecting. I can keep the Shopsmith unit as a portable unit when it’s not practical to use the main system.

All great feedback….

-- Steve, Virginia

View eflanders's profile

eflanders

326 posts in 2416 days


#37 posted 09-09-2017 01:58 PM

I’m in the camp of multiple D.C. units. Why: Cost was the primary factor. I could get two smaller used units at a cost that was far less than one 3 hp or higher unit. The added benefit is that these units are better at being cycled on and off more frequently which is common for me in my hobby shop. The downside: This takes up more floor space so I sort of stacked them in a way that maximizes critical floor space in my basement shop.

Here’s a tip: One of my D.C. units is from H.F. and the dust bag it came with is not good at catching fine dust. Rather than buy a expensive cartridge filter, I just put a second filter bag over the original one. This trick seems to now catch all of the fines that I could see escaping the single bag before.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#38 posted 09-09-2017 04:32 PM

I have a Freud fence and a box under the table. Both only have 2-1/2” ports, but I love how little gets past the dust and chip collection. Adding the box over the 3-1/2hp router made the difference.


[I] was using a 3/8” straight cutter on my router to cut some slots in poplar for a jig I m making on the router table and the fine dust was going everywhere. . . .

- sreilly24590


View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#39 posted 09-09-2017 04:40 PM

I just bought a CV1800 to replace my Oneida. I’ve never been happy with the SDG, and now have decided I don’t want to be unhappy anymore. But the noise of the CV is a common complaint. I guess that wasn’t much of a factor to me, since the DC is always running in conjunction with some other tool….so I’m always wearing ear protection. My shops have always been detached buildings, so there wasn’t any concern about noise in the basement or garage. What i do want is maximum airflow, so I ordered the optional 16” impeller. Note, none of this is set up yet since I’m still without a shop. That should be solved in the next couple of months or so. But back around Memorial Day CV had a 10% off sitewide sale, so I pulled the trigger then.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#40 posted 09-09-2017 05:07 PM

Just curious, is this a 5hp vs 3hp comparison?


I just bought a CV1800 to replace my Oneida. I ve never been happy with the SDG, and now have decided I don t want to be unhappy anymore. But the noise of the CV is a common complaint. I guess that wasn t much of a factor to me, since the DC is always running in conjunction with some other tool….so I m always wearing ear protection. My shops have always been detached buildings, so there wasn t any concern about noise in the basement or garage. What i do want is maximum airflow, so I ordered the optional 16” impeller. Note, none of this is set up yet since I m still without a shop. That should be solved in the next couple of months or so. But back around Memorial Day CV had a 10% off sitewide sale, so I pulled the trigger then.

- Fred Hargis


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Fred Hargis

5840 posts in 3059 days


#41 posted 09-09-2017 06:41 PM

My SDG has a 5HP motor, but a 14 1/4” impeller; but I didn’t (I don’t think) compare them. If I did, I didn’t mean to.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#42 posted 09-21-2017 08:43 PM

So along the lines of sawdust collection, what do you do with your dust? Good for gardens/flower beds?

Steve

-- Steve, Virginia

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#43 posted 09-21-2017 08:56 PM

I wait until my buddy’s leaves his shop for the day and drop off bags of it.

View sreilly24590's profile

sreilly24590

145 posts in 998 days


#44 posted 09-22-2017 12:37 AM

I wondered who that was….......

-- Steve, Virginia

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2540 posts in 3510 days


#45 posted 09-22-2017 12:45 AM

Crap. I didn’t know you read these posts.


I wondered who that was….......

- sreilly24590


View Dave's profile

Dave

157 posts in 3763 days


#46 posted 09-23-2017 03:53 AM

I’ve had the Oneida V-5000 (molded version) for about a year and I am getting a cup or two of fine powder for every 55 gallon drum I fill with chips and larger dust. I clean the filter regularly. I saw some larger debris (a few 1/2” splinters and a small shaving) get past the cyclone at least once and I think it was partly because of how I was using the system.

I think the larger debris got into the filter because I was running the DC with only one gate open sometimes to get more suction (especially at the table saw). That is a BAD idea and I’ve since stopped. Cyclone separation efficiency drops off rapidly when the inlet velocity slows. In a well-sealed cyclone, I think this could easily be the biggest driver of poor separation. I now try to make sure that the total area of open blast gates is close to the area of the cyclone inlet at all times so the system stays above 4000fpm at the inlet.

The other change I made was to add a long length of straight duct coming into the cyclone. The wye branch going to my bandsaw, planer, and jointer was within a foot of the cyclone inlet and I think that may have reduced the separation efficiency, too, for those machines, because of the turbulence.

As others have said, Unless (until?) your filter gets damaged, cyclone separation won’t affect your air quality; just the amount of time you spend blowing out your filter to maintain good airflow, which is a good habit anyway.

By the way, if his response hasn’t already prompted you to check out his blog and review already, Readoak49 has some great technical data on how his 5hp unit performs. It’s the most objective evaluation of a system I’ve seen yet!

-- "I'm not afraid of heights. I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

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