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View RubberDuc's profile

Lesson Learned Unfortunately (Painter's Pyramids) :(

by RubberDuc
posted 02-23-2017 12:38 AM


42 replies so far

View jat's profile

jat

77 posts in 3069 days


#1 posted 02-23-2017 12:43 AM

I also have those pyramids and used them once while I put mineral oil on an end grain cutting board. When I turned it over, I noticed that the pyramid points indented on the board. Have never used them again.

View RubberDuc's profile

RubberDuc

45 posts in 824 days


#2 posted 02-23-2017 12:46 AM



I also have those pyramids and used them once while I put mineral oil on an end grain cutting board. When I turned it over, I noticed that the pyramid points indented on the board. Have never used them again.

- jat

Hi Jat,

Thanks for the reply, I’m just sitting here stewing over it lol. It is my own fault, I just don’t know why I thought it would be ok to use these, I want to slap my own face and yell “DOH!”.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10844 posts in 1784 days


#3 posted 02-23-2017 12:50 AM

It’s the bottom. Gonna get beat up anyway. Fantastic work. Made something similar but I have a rack mount head.

I hope you don’t have problems with the top & sides glued to the front.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View RubberDuc's profile

RubberDuc

45 posts in 824 days


#4 posted 02-23-2017 12:53 AM


It s the bottom. Gonna get beat up anyway. Fantastic work. Made something similar but I have a rack mount head.

I hope you don t have problems with the top & sides glued to the front.

- TheFridge

Yeah, but still have a few dents on the top too which is really aggravating. I’d be less pissed if it was all on the bottom, but Brightside no scratches on the top. Honestly I guess I just have one of those OCD brains that focus on stuff like that. Honestly, I’m considering just sanding the whole thing back down lol, I really don’t want to do that but depending on how much it continues to bother me will decide I guess :D

When you say “problems” I’m assuming you mean from grain movement (expansion/contraction)? I’ve never really understood that I think like I should so I guess I hope I don’t either. Thanks for the compliment :)

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TheFridge

10844 posts in 1784 days


#5 posted 02-23-2017 01:13 AM

Well yeah, my outlook is a bit different because I don’t baby my gear. I don’t intentionally bang stuff around but it happens.

Yeah that was the problem I was speaking of.

You’re welcome. It looks good.

I wish I had the cash to make dovetailed case of walnut and maple for an 8×10” stack. Id dread hand cutting those dovetails even if I could afford it. But I can dream :)

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View RubberDuc's profile

RubberDuc

45 posts in 824 days


#6 posted 02-23-2017 01:15 AM



Well yeah, my outlook is a bit different because I don t baby my gear. I don t intentionally bang stuff around but it happens.

Yeah that was the problem I was speaking of.

You re welcome. It looks good.

I wish I had the cash to make dovetailed case of walnut and maple for an 8×10” stack. Id dread hand cutting those dovetails even if I could afford it. But I can dream :)

- TheFridge

Yeah that would be awesome! The dovetails were a pain, I did them all by hand and it was harder then I remembered it being (coming back to woodworking after several years).

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TheFridge

10844 posts in 1784 days


#7 posted 02-23-2017 01:21 AM

I just noticed them. Solid work. The walnut and maple look awesome.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Slemi's profile

Slemi

118 posts in 1839 days


#8 posted 02-23-2017 09:57 AM



... these stupid plastic pyramids slid everywhere at the slightest touch.
- RubberDuc

Why don’t you just glue with double sided tape some 240 sandpaper on the bottom of the pyramids? Or some finer sandpaper if 240 is too coarse for the surface you put them on. I use 2000 sandpaper on all of my small jigs to prevent slippage.

Regards!
Gregor

View Mike54Ohio's profile

Mike54Ohio

181 posts in 776 days


#9 posted 02-23-2017 12:49 PM



I also have those pyramids and used them once while I put mineral oil on an end grain cutting board. When I turned it over, I noticed that the pyramid points indented on the board. Have never used them again.

- jat

I found out the same hard way on a cutting board I was making for one of my children for Christmas present, thought those pyramids would be awesome for applying finish coats to the board until I flipped it over and saw all the dimples from the pyramids. Guess they aren’t so hot to use after all. You would think maple is hard enough to resist that from just resting on them, but now they (the pyramids) sit on a shelf staring at me hoping to get used again. Instead they just get dusty.

Nice work on the cabinet head.

-- It's only a dumb question if you ignore the correct answer

View SuperCubber's profile

SuperCubber

1069 posts in 2582 days


#10 posted 02-23-2017 03:49 PM

Same thing happened to me the first time. I hate those plastic ones. I ended up making my own out of poplar. They stay put a little better, and they are softer, but I still only use them on a side that won’t be seen (i.e., finish the bottom, flip it onto those things, then finish the top).

-- Joe | Spartanburg, SC | "To give anything less than your best is to sacrafice the gift." - Steve Prefontaine

View Bluepine38's profile

Bluepine38

3380 posts in 3383 days


#11 posted 02-23-2017 04:35 PM

They also make those pyramids with tabs so you can screw or nail them down. Spacing the project from the
supporting surface allows you to easily finish the sides properly. I have not used them to support a freshly
finished surface yet, because I was taught to let all finishes dry properly before touching or setting them on
anything. This was reinforced when I stacked some supposedly dry painted boards and they stuck together,
forcing me to pry them apart and refinish the ones that were not ruined. Just my opinion.

-- As ever, Gus-the 80 yr young apprentice carpenter

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 889 days


#12 posted 02-23-2017 04:50 PM

Every time I look at those pyramids I wonder how Rockler manages to sell them to someone. Apparently they have very good sale techniques and probably could sell a bridge to you.
As OP says a piece of an off cut with a nail in it does the same if not better job. If you adamantly want a pyramid just cut it out from a piece of wood ( we say we are woodworkers here don’t we ?)

As for myself I plan to make a much better solution. The work piece will be held by an anti-gravity work table. No scratching, no messing up the workpiece or surrounding objects.
I already have a table just need some anti gravity device. If you can come up with an idea how to make it we can make a team and share the profit.

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3195 posts in 3825 days


#13 posted 02-23-2017 06:06 PM


As for myself I plan to make a much better solution. The work piece will be held by an anti-gravity work table. No scratching, no messing up the workpiece or surrounding objects.
I already have a table just need some anti gravity device. If you can come up with an idea how to make it we can make a team and share the profit.

- Carloz

Does the anti-gravity device need to be made entirely of wood? If you allow a few non-wood components, it should be easy!

-- “Big man, pig man, ha ha, charade you are.” ― R. Waters

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5883 posts in 3111 days


#14 posted 02-23-2017 06:16 PM

I use pyramids, but learned early on to only use them on the side that doesn’t show.
For instance if I’m spraying finish on a hardwood top, I’ll lay the top upside down directly on my work table.
I spray the underside, and flip it over onto the pyramids. Then I finish by spraying the top and edges.

This way there is never any weight on the pyramids.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View HickWillis's profile

HickWillis

115 posts in 957 days


#15 posted 02-23-2017 07:12 PM

Ran across this on Popular Woodworking today. Not sure if it would work for you, but you could make it any size you wanted in reality.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/use-a-nail-board-to-speed-work

-- -Will

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1579 posts in 3365 days


#16 posted 02-23-2017 07:21 PM

love those and wished I’d thought of it. Easy fix, just put some painters tape on top to round the points over. No biggie.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View RubberDuc's profile

RubberDuc

45 posts in 824 days


#17 posted 02-24-2017 12:54 AM


They also make those pyramids with tabs so you can screw or nail them down. Spacing the project from the
supporting surface allows you to easily finish the sides properly. I have not used them to support a freshly
finished surface yet, because I was taught to let all finishes dry properly before touching or setting them on
anything. This was reinforced when I stacked some supposedly dry painted boards and they stuck together,
forcing me to pry them apart and refinish the ones that were not ruined. Just my opinion.

- Bluepine38

Well that might have worked for the scratches, but the indents would happen regardless b/c of how sharp they are as others have clearly experienced as well unfortunately. I got over it though today, and got the project completely finished :)

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 889 days


#18 posted 02-24-2017 04:05 PM

As for myself I plan to make a much better solution. The work piece will be held by an anti-gravity work table. No scratching, no messing up the workpiece or surrounding objects.
I already have a table just need some anti gravity device. If you can come up with an idea how to make it we can make a team and share the profit.
- Carloz

Does the anti-gravity device need to be made entirely of wood? If you allow a few non-wood components, it should be easy!

- ChuckV


You mean like a table hockey ?
Yes that would work. Plus if you get bored with painting you can entertain yourself by using that cabinet door as a puck.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2293 days


#19 posted 02-24-2017 05:09 PM

I just bought some of those and I really liked them. I did ape them down so they didn’t slide. And for my project I was able to place them under the feet of the table, and then on top of the legs (so underneath where the top would cover. No issues at all. On the end grain, you could not detect a divot, and even so it would have been hidden.

When I did the top, I always put the shoe side down on the pyramids first, so the only wet side to see their points was the hidden side. After the dry time elapsed, putting the top back down didn’t leave a mark. On the bottom the marks are hardly detectable, but they are there. If you had a piece where all sides show, you could have an issue I guess.

Being able to coat all sides of my project with one dry time, I stead of doing one side, waiting, doing the other, etc. , was a HUGE time savings. We’ll worth the cost.

Like any other tool or jig, they have limits and require a certain technique. But if you use them right they are fantastic.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View zzzzdoc's profile

zzzzdoc

550 posts in 3301 days


#20 posted 02-26-2017 04:37 AM

I’m also wondering how to avoid the pin holes that the pyramids create. I haven’t found a better solution, but they screw up your finishes.

I solved the moving problem by gluing sandpaper on the bottom, and filling the pyramids with lead shot / epoxy mixture. It really does work well preventing the pyramids from moving.

Does anyone have a good solution to prevent the holes in the finish? I’ve heard of people making a nail board with lots and lots of nails, but won’t that make lots of smaller holes in the finish instead of a smaller number of larger holes?

-- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

View Carloz's profile

Carloz

1147 posts in 889 days


#21 posted 03-06-2017 04:34 AM



I use pyramids, but learned early on to only use them on the side that doesn t show.
For instance if I m spraying finish on a hardwood top, I ll lay the top upside down directly on my work table.
I spray the underside, and flip it over onto the pyramids. Then I finish by spraying the top and edges.

This way there is never any weight on the pyramids.

- pintodeluxe


What about 2nd, 3rd … coats ?

View WhoMe's profile

WhoMe

1564 posts in 3541 days


#22 posted 03-06-2017 04:52 AM

That case is quite nice, great work.

Pinto is correct. Pyramids or nail boards. Anything with a few points of contact will create dimples due to the concentrated force applied to the wood at the contact points .
Now IF… You had a nail board with say 12 nails, that are exactly the same height, you re distributing the weight across many more points and would not see much if anything in the way of visible dimples. But, since nails have sharper points than the pyramids, you still risk damage to the finish at the contact points.

In the future, is it possible to rig up a support such that it can support these projects by reaching into the openings and support the project from the inside?

-- I'm not clumsy.. It's just the floor hates me, the tables and chairs are bullies, the wall gets in the way AAANNNDDD table saws BITE my fingers!!!.. - Mike -

View becikeja's profile

becikeja

973 posts in 3111 days


#23 posted 03-06-2017 10:58 AM

I received several of the pyramids as a gift. Gave them a chance. Terrible results. My issue was not the pyramids moving, but the piece I was finishing would slide around on them leaving streaks with the slightest pressure. I went back to nail boards. Yes on the back side you might get a few dimples, but much less noticeable than what the pyramids do. For heavier objects, I use pipe.

-- Don't outsmart your common sense

View ellen35's profile

ellen35

2740 posts in 3730 days


#24 posted 03-06-2017 11:31 AM

Why don’t you just sand the tip slightly off the pyramid? I use them all the time…never a problem. If you sand the tip, just to give it some grip, you can use them and they won’t leave marks.

-- "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Voltaire

View becikeja's profile

becikeja

973 posts in 3111 days


#25 posted 03-06-2017 11:55 AM

Why would you buy and use a product that you have to modify for it to be acceptable. I don’t get it?
The things don’t work, move on.

-- Don't outsmart your common sense

View Roy Turbett's profile

Roy Turbett

169 posts in 3878 days


#26 posted 03-06-2017 04:26 PM

I used the pyramids for some plywood shelves I was painting for a pantry and was very satisfied with the result. Once the paint was dry, I stacked the shelves in a corner and used the pyramids to separate them so the paint could cure some more. I realize I wasn’t making fine furniture, but they do have their place. I bought mine at the Home Depot for about half the price that Rockler charges.

View ClammyBallz's profile

ClammyBallz

449 posts in 1434 days


#27 posted 03-06-2017 04:47 PM

I made my own wooden pyramids from some 2×4 scraps after seeing a DIY tip on one of the woodworking magazines. I thought they would speed up my finish time, but I’ve learned even with sharp or blunt tips, you have to let the finish dry before flipping the piece. They’re good for cabinet doors or light pieces, but anything heavier and I use wood slats to lift the piece off the table when spraying.

View OSU55's profile (online now)

OSU55

2153 posts in 2287 days


#28 posted 03-06-2017 05:15 PM



Why would you buy and use a product that you have to modify for it to be acceptable. I don t get it?
The things don t work, move on.
- becikeja

Oh, probably because I’ve saved thousands of $’s by modifying cheaper tools, didn’t waste the time or $ to go buy another tool, or made a custom tool when nothing else would work. I have my limits, but .spending an hour to save $20 – everytime

View becikeja's profile

becikeja

973 posts in 3111 days


#29 posted 03-07-2017 02:09 AM

Why would you buy and use a product that you have to modify for it to be acceptable. I don t get it?
The things don t work, move on.
- becikeja

Oh, probably because I ve saved thousands of $ s by modifying cheaper tools, didn t waste the time or $ to go buy another tool, or made a custom tool when nothing else would work. I have my limits, but .spending an hour to save $20 – everytime

- OSU55

Last I checked a board with some nails poking out, works much better than these pyramids, and was also much cheaper. Try again. Makes no sense.

-- Don't outsmart your common sense

View OSU55's profile (online now)

OSU55

2153 posts in 2287 days


#30 posted 03-07-2017 12:33 PM


Last I checked a board with some nails poking out, works much better than these pyramids, and was also much cheaper. Try again. Makes no sense.

- becikeja

Last I checked, in the OP’s case, nails would have made deep holes and scratches in his project.

View becikeja's profile

becikeja

973 posts in 3111 days


#31 posted 03-07-2017 01:00 PM


Last I checked a board with some nails poking out, works much better than these pyramids, and was also much cheaper. Try again. Makes no sense.

- becikeja

Last I checked, in the OP s case, nails would have made deep holes and scratches in his project.

- OSU55

I guess grinding off a nail head is much more costly than buying a pyramid and sanding it down. Try again, still makes no sense to pay good money for something that obviously doesn’t work. But it’s fun watching you try to justify the expense.

-- Don't outsmart your common sense

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

998 posts in 3273 days


#32 posted 03-07-2017 01:11 PM

Grinding off the nail head would not help very much with the holes caused by the pointy end.

I guess grinding off a nail head is much more costly than buying a pyramid and sanding it down. Try again, still makes no sense to pay good money for something that obviously doesn t work. But it s fun watching you try to justify the expense.

- becikeja


View HorizontalMike's profile (online now)

HorizontalMike

7772 posts in 3212 days


#33 posted 03-07-2017 01:14 PM

Just a though here… How about gluing a rubber “SpaceBall” on top of each pyramid (store bought, homemade, screw, etc.)? They are cheap.

FWIW, I too get very frustrated with them sliding all over the place, plus the dimples, etc.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

4084 posts in 2065 days


#34 posted 03-07-2017 01:43 PM

These may be cheaper more accurate than nail. Use a spray adhesive to hold them in place.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3091 posts in 1685 days


#35 posted 03-07-2017 02:03 PM

I have 2 sets of these pyramids I bought for a buck at a garage sale and I use them all the time. The main purpose for the pyramids is to elevate the piece to make it easier to access the sides. I would not expect anything that is pointy to leave no mark on a finished surface that may still be curing. Also, even against an unfinished surface it is best to use all of the supports that came in the package (or 2 sets for a larger piece) to support the piece to minimize the weight on each one and to reduce the chances that it will dent the surface whether it has been finished or not. I have had them slide on the plastic laminate surface of my assembly table but I have not had a problem with what I am finishing sliding on top of the points, possible because it slides against the smooth table before the piece against the points.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

998 posts in 3273 days


#36 posted 03-07-2017 02:13 PM

Wonder if a golf tee would fit through holes in peg board to hold them in place?


These may be cheaper more accurate than nail. Use a spray adhesive to hold them in place.

- mahdee


View HorizontalMike's profile (online now)

HorizontalMike

7772 posts in 3212 days


#37 posted 03-07-2017 02:19 PM



Wonder if a golf tee would fit through holes in peg board to hold them in place?

- hotbyte

IMO, golf tees topped with a rubber SpaceBall on a peg-board could/would be ideal… 8-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3091 posts in 1685 days


#38 posted 03-07-2017 02:29 PM

Eureka! I think that Spaceballs may be the solution to every woodworking problem. ;-)

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1197 days


#39 posted 03-07-2017 02:32 PM

If your ok with space balls then you might as well just use a block of wood and put a door bumper on it.

View zzzzdoc's profile

zzzzdoc

550 posts in 3301 days


#40 posted 03-07-2017 02:49 PM

I’m going to quickly make a pegboard with golf tees and try it.

50 or so tees should drop the pressure per tee to very little.

I run into this problem on the second side of things all the time. Drives me nuts. Was thinking about the nails, but if you accidentally shift the workpiece you are guaranteed a scratch.

I’m thinking the pegboard / golf tees might actually work. Or it will leave 50 dents. We’ll see.

-- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

View RubberDuc's profile

RubberDuc

45 posts in 824 days


#41 posted 03-07-2017 03:06 PM

So since my thread is still going strong it seems I came up with what I think is the perfect solution! Just add a dap of hot glue to the tip and the 4 feet, viola! problem solved. Hot glue is incredible skid proof and all you need is a pin sized amount. I haven’t tried it yet, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t work. This is a free, 5 second fix that will make these things work the way they should without marring anything or moving on you.

View zzzzdoc's profile

zzzzdoc

550 posts in 3301 days


#42 posted 03-07-2017 03:20 PM

My car already goes to ludicrous speed, so I’m already there.

The Schwartz is strong with that car.

-- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

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