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Rockwell Unisaw wiring problem

by Jesden
posted 02-20-2017 03:35 PM


27 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5834 posts in 3053 days


#1 posted 02-20-2017 03:40 PM

I’m fairly certain you won’t get to work on 120V (others may have different info, I’m not an expert), you might be able to replace some of your existing breakers with “tandem” breakers (2-120V breakers in one slot), or add a subpanel and increase the overall number of circuits.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Julian's profile

Julian

1497 posts in 3250 days


#2 posted 02-20-2017 03:44 PM

I’m not an electrician but don’t think your saw can run on 120V. My suggestion is hire an electrician to install a 240V circuit.

-- Julian

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1446 posts in 1375 days


#3 posted 02-20-2017 03:48 PM

Your saw probably has either a 3 or 5 horsepower motor. That is more power than you can get through a 120VAC 20A outlet. You don’t seem to be very familiar with house wiring or tool power requirements and techniques. If you know an electrician from whom you can get advice or help, you need to do so. There are ways to get around the problem of a full breaker panel, depending on how it was done originally, but this isn’t something you ought to take on with no experience.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7529 posts in 2758 days


#4 posted 02-20-2017 07:03 PM

The 3 phase converter and motor all say this thing can be wired 110, 220 single phase or 3 phase.

Please post a few pictures of this magical setup! In particular, post a picture of the motors data plate, the starter and the phase converter. Without that at a minimum, all you are going to get is a bunch of guesses.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View magaoitin's profile

magaoitin

249 posts in 1509 days


#5 posted 02-20-2017 07:49 PM

Most electrical panels in “modern” houses have the ability for 220V power. If you have an electric range/oven you probably have the ability to use 220V power, the question is if you have 2 available breakers and can dedicate them to this piece of equipment.

I would like to know the model of 3 phase converter you are using. I just purchased a TECO FM50, and while they do have a model that allows 115v input to generate 3 phase output, the HP is very small. I think their max is 1 HP.

-- Jeff ~ Tacoma Wa.

View Jesden's profile

Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#6 posted 02-20-2017 09:56 PM

I understand wiring fairly well. I understand my box has 220 and 110. Here are some pictures of the saw and what is on the motor. Remember this is a Rockwell but exact thing as a delta Unisaw.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

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Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#7 posted 02-20-2017 10:10 PM

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 2045 days


#8 posted 02-20-2017 10:16 PM

1ph motor and 3ph starter. You can make it work just don’t know how off the top of my head.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View TheGreatJon's profile

TheGreatJon

348 posts in 1793 days


#9 posted 02-20-2017 10:20 PM

DELETED POST – I posted while you were still posting the pictures. Overeager. Haha.

Fridge got it. Your motor is only single phase. Your starter is capable of handling a 3 phase motor, but that’s obviously not necessary here. I believe that for a single phase set up you will just use L1/T1 and L2/T2 – and ignore L3/T3. If no one else comes along with a better answer, I have a few single phase machines with similar starters. I could check tonight.

Also… I think I’m right, seeing as that is how your starter is already wired.

-- This is not the signature line you are looking for.

View TheGreatJon's profile

TheGreatJon

348 posts in 1793 days


#10 posted 02-20-2017 10:27 PM

Oh, and your motor indicates that you can run it off of 110v. However, none of your typical 110v circuits will be able to handle it. In the US, standard home outlets are 110v, 15amp. In order to run that motor on 110v you will need 19.2 amps. If you plug it into your normal outlets, you’ll just trip the breaker (hopefully).

You either need to run a special 110v line that can handle higher current, or you need to run a 220v line. I recommend running a 220v circuit. It opens up so many possibilities for cool machines!

-- This is not the signature line you are looking for.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 2045 days


#11 posted 02-20-2017 10:43 PM

You can run a 30A 120v or a 20A 240v circuit.

The only problem I see may be the controls need rewiring. I see 120v and 24vac coming off the control transformer. I can’t tell how those circuits are interconnected.

Edit: make sure the on/off push buttons are momentary contacts (they pop back out when pushed). The only other thing I see is that you don’t have 2 dry (auxiliary) contacts linked to the starter for seal in purposes.

In other words I don’t see what’s typically there.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Jesden's profile

Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#12 posted 02-20-2017 11:25 PM

Thanks the Fridge and TheGreatJon. On the 3 phase converter I ran the white rolex coming up from the bottom on the outside of the box and the guy that owned the saw was using the saw daily from the yellow wire coming from bottom into the box (220 single phase). I have been hearing I don’t want to wire this thing 110. It would be like a 4 cylinder in a drag car.

So my next question is that my breaker panel is full and I have not a single breaker spot left. I think my basement has a couple of breakers that run the outlets downstairs. I think I am going to have to run all of them on a single 110. And then use the second that I just freed up and use a splitter breaker that fits in the space of the 110 single breaker. If this makes since. What do you guys think?

I hate not having any more space in the breaker box.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7529 posts in 2758 days


#13 posted 02-20-2017 11:58 PM

You do NOT have a three phase converter… just a normal single phase motor and a starter that can be used for either single or three phase power at various voltages (single phase just uses two instead of all three contacts – it is currently wired for single phase BTW). It also looks like, based on where the control transformer is being tapped at, the machine is currently wired for 120v. But as others have pointed out, 19.2A is too large to run on a standard (or even a 20A) 120V circuit, so 240v would be preferred. If you have a 240v outlet anywhere near (like for a clothes dryer), you can easily make an extension cord for it if necessary.

The real question is: Was this machine being run on 120V and what plug does it have on the end of the cord? You certainly can re-wire it to run on 240v, but will need to make sure the heaters in the starter are sized appropriately for the motor at that voltage. There should be a chart inside the starter that shows the proper sizes to use.

Note: Running it on 120v will not cause it to run like “a 4 cylinder in a drag car”. As long as you provide an adequate 120v circuit (ie: over 20A), you will not notice any difference between 120 and 240v.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Rockwell = Delta. They are one in the same. Rockwell purchased Delta in the early 40’s, and owned it until sold to Pentair in 1984.

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 2045 days


#14 posted 02-21-2017 12:05 AM

Ditto. It would be much easier with a 240v ckt.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Jesden's profile

Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#15 posted 02-21-2017 03:06 AM

MrUnix thank you for the info. The wire you are seeing is beacause I moved that one wire to the 115 tab when I wired up the white cord. It was plugged into the 230 tab, top 2nd left to right. The saw ran when I picked it up and run smooth and good. So if I don’t have a 3 phase converter, what is a starter for? I would think the motor has the starter on the side of it and would not need this big box on the back of it.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7529 posts in 2758 days


#16 posted 02-21-2017 03:22 AM

The “Starter” is a magnetic contactor and overload protection, along with (not always) a transformer to provide control voltage for the contactor, and used with the start/stop control station. It is a protective device. The ‘box’ on the side of the motor is just a wiring junction box (diagram is on the motor data plate).

Here are the basic components (off a very similar starter to the one you have):

As long as you haven’t messed with anything other than the control voltage lug, you should be good to go. Put that wire back over on H3 (230v), and run your 240v to L1 and L2. L3 isn’t used for single phase. Control station (start/stop momentary buttons) should already be hooked up.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: The heaters are those little coil things just to the right of the contactor in the picture above and are sized to provide overload protection to the motor being used.

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 2045 days


#17 posted 02-21-2017 03:27 AM

The starter is the thing on the left. The overloads are below that. The starter is a big electrically controlled switch. Plain and somewhat simple.

- Jesden


-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Jesden's profile

Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#18 posted 02-21-2017 06:01 PM

Ok thank you guys for the info. So this is like a regulator/ fuse box to keep from burning up an expensive motor or something.

I guess I will tap into the dryer line and run me 2 receptacles in my basement. Just can’t run dryer and tablesaw at the same time.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

379 posts in 1444 days


#19 posted 02-21-2017 07:38 PM

It’s properly called a magnetic starter.

While it does provide overload protection, it’s PRIMARY purpose is safety. Should you trip the breaker or lose electricity due to a storm or other fault, the motor will shut down and NOT restart when power is restored. You have to go back to the machine and push the start button again. This ensures that any material accidentally left on the machine is not thrown across the room should the machine restart when the breaker is closed at the panel. Think about a thunderstorm when power may flicker on and off momentarily. That shuts the machine down, rather than stop and restart repeatedly, a decidedly unsafe occurrence.

Also, it’s important to note that the circuit is sized to handle maximum load amps, the motor on the table saw will only draw the amps needed to complete the cut based on the load on the motor. So the saw may start and run on a 15A 120V circuit, and even make low power cuts (thin boards/slow feed rate) but you’ll get nuisance trips when you try to make heavy cuts.

So yes, get an electrician to put a couple piggy back breakers in your panel to free up some space. It’s no big deal to do that.

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Half of all boards cut to a specific length will be too short.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 2045 days


#20 posted 02-21-2017 08:32 PM

I would advise against tapping off the dryer and just make a cord that plugs into the dryer receptacle.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Jesden's profile

Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#21 posted 02-22-2017 01:50 AM

Sawdust dad thanks for that info. I never thought about that. Be crazy and I know if power stopped I would leave the board and walk away.

The Fridge running a cord from dryer plug in would not work. I would every time have to move the dryer and the cord would be about 40 feet long go down steps which would mean I would have to leave door to basement open. I am usually working on things after everyone goes to bed and the door helps with heat and keeping noise down. The breaker and wire for dryer is only about 10ft from me.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

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Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#22 posted 02-23-2017 07:58 PM

Ok so I tapped into the dryer, put a junction box and told the wife the tablesaw has priority (ya right). I ran a wife in basement and put a 240 outlet. Wired tablesaw exactly as it came from the guy I bought it from (it was running the day I cut the cord). I tested and have 239 volts coming out of outlet and going thru the cord I put on saw. I also if you look at picture put back the one wire I moved. SAW STILL DOES NOT RUN. If I could pick it up and throw it I would.

What do you guys think the problem is now.

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7529 posts in 2758 days


#23 posted 02-23-2017 08:28 PM

Verify you are getting 240v to the T1 and T2 lugs, and that you have voltage coming off the control transformer. Not sure what voltage your coil needs, but it should be marked on it (they are replaceable and come in different voltages). I can’t really tell from your picture (too dark), but there should be two push buttons on the contactor… one is to manually engage the contacts, and pushing it in should close the contacts and provide power to the motor. If that doesn’t work, then you will need to break out the multimeter and start checking some voltages. Also, are you sure your control station (momentary start/stop buttons) is wired correctly?

Cheers,
Brad

PS: The control station wiring colors shown are typical from the factory, but there is no standard, so they may be different. A multimeter can confirm (use the wiring diagram inside the starter to verify).

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#24 posted 02-23-2017 09:57 PM

Thanks. I hooked power wires directly to motor and plugged it in. Motor comes on and runs great. There was a fuse on top right side. Fuse works. I have not noticed a switch on back except 1 pull tab on lower left box beside motor wires. I’ll look for more switches and see. Thanks

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7529 posts in 2758 days


#25 posted 02-23-2017 10:11 PM

Not familiar with that exact contactor, but it should have a way to manually push the contacts closed. You might have to remove the cover on it to get it though. It also appears to have an interlock switch on the LVC circuit, which would lock out the control station – typically wired to do so when something like a door or cover is open or removed. I don’t know what that is hooked up to… perhaps the starter cover… but that would prevent the control station from working if the switch is open. If you can get the motor to fire up by manually engaging the contactor, then I’d suspect the lockout switch and/or the control circuit as the problem.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#26 posted 02-24-2017 01:21 AM

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

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Jesden

20 posts in 1028 days


#27 posted 02-24-2017 05:07 AM

Ok here is a lit photo. I find only 1 switch and I tried to get a good angle from 2nd pic

Ok I figured out it is a problem to the top left black box. The contractor I think it’s called. It has the spring loaded contacts from the bottom. So I can hold the start button use a screwdriver to push the contacts up and saw turns on. I can let go of button and it stays running. I let go of contacts and they just fall and turn saw off without me pushing a button. Anyone know why this would be when the saw ran perfect before?

-- What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.

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