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View Dave Smith's profile

Any suggestions to reduce chipout?

by Dave Smith
posted 02-17-2017 02:50 PM


36 replies so far

View toolie's profile

toolie

2168 posts in 3136 days


#1 posted 02-17-2017 06:16 PM

how wide are your workpieces?

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4155 days


#2 posted 02-17-2017 06:29 PM

Wet the boards with a damp sponge. That
can help.

Ash generally machines well. Do you have
some oak or similar around you could test
your machines with to make sure its really
not a machine problem?

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#3 posted 02-17-2017 08:44 PM

Pieces are 6” to 10” wide. Have tried to wet the wood (a suggestion I read on Lumberjocks) and it helps a little. Yes, ran some red oak and pine with no problem. Also have a bunch of walnut, it chips some. Have not tried to wet the walnut though. Thanks for the replies by the way.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4155 days


#4 posted 02-18-2017 01:05 AM

What kind of dust collection?

I’m grasping at straws but are you sure you’re
not looking at denting?

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#5 posted 02-18-2017 01:34 AM

No dust collection. And it is definitely tearout where the grain direction changes. If I feed boards from opposite direction it just chips out the other way. I’m wondering if perhaps the wood is to dry. It has been stored in a farmer’s shed for 40 years. Thanks Loren, I’m open to even wild guesses at this point.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

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Andybb

2099 posts in 1111 days


#6 posted 02-18-2017 01:46 AM

/

-- Andy - Seattle USA

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4155 days


#7 posted 02-18-2017 01:53 AM

diagonal feeding can help a little.

Beyond that, the solution is to get a Makita
waterstone sharpener and put a 5 degree
back bevel on the knives.

A back bevel is not difficult to achieve with
hand planes, so, assessing the depth of
the tearout, one might want to turn to
a scraper plane or a standard bench plane
back-beveled 5 degrees, which makes the
effective cutting angle 50 degrees.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4155 days


#8 posted 02-18-2017 01:59 AM

Brian Burns is a member here. He generally
only comments regarding building guitars.
I learned about back beveling from his
pamphlet “Double Bevel Sharpening”.

Also, prior to the development of the
chipbreaker, woodworkers used planes
bedded at 45-60 degrees to compensate
for different wood species properties. An
argument can be made that one can add
5-10 degrees of effective angle to a hand
plane by fussing with the chipbreaker.

Back-beveling is fo-sho however.

https://youtu.be/WO_M95qDdAQ

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5985 posts in 3321 days


#9 posted 02-18-2017 02:06 AM

The old line of reasoning was to let those big straight knives cause all the tearout they want. A drum sander can clean up the mess later.

Since helical heads have saturated the hobbyist market, tearout seems to be a thing of the past for me.
I have only upgraded my planer so far, but since that’s the last tool to mill the wood, it works pretty good.

Tearout with straight knives used to really frustrate me with figured white oak. One pass would look fine, and the next would be riddled with tearout. That added hours of sanding to each project.
I don’t know if a helical head is on your radar this year, but it sure did the trick for me.

FYI, I tried planing the board on an angled bias, wetting the wood, adjusting depth of cut etc. etc. etc.
Perhaps they helped a little, but it didn’t really prevent me from getting tearout.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Dave Smith's profile

Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#10 posted 02-18-2017 02:19 AM

I have tried feeding diagonally with the planer, didn’t make much difference. I will try your back bevel idea. Do you know if they make helical cutter heads that would fit my machines or would new ones be necessary?

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1368 posts in 1428 days


#11 posted 02-18-2017 02:50 PM

Dave Smith,

Here is a source for helical cutter heads. I did not see the Craftsman jointer listed, but the site claims that they will respond to email for machines not on their list.

https://www.holbren.com/byrd-shelix-jointer-heads/

All the classical methods of which I am aware for minimizing tear out have already been mentioned. Since you are willing to entertain wild guesses, I offer this one which I have not tried.

I suspect tear out occurs when the jointer/planer knife grabs the ends of fibers and pulls on the fibers until the fibers break leaving tear out. I wonder whether if the fibers were “glued together” if tear out could be minimized? If it would, then perhaps applying a clear finish to the rough boards (at least where the grain direction changes) could tame some of the tear out. After the finish is cured, perhaps the binders in the finish would help keep the fibers intact and bound together and thus reduce tear out.

Using a finish that will be applied to the project at the end would be best since some residual finish could be left on the boards. Of course any residual finish left after milling could affect glue-ups so avoiding areas that will be glued would be a good idea.

Since I am not sure whether this method will help and given that this method would delay the milling, trying it out on a single problematic board would be best.

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#12 posted 02-18-2017 03:12 PM



No dust collection. And it is definitely tearout where the grain direction changes. If I feed boards from opposite direction it just chips out the other way. I m wondering if perhaps the wood is to dry. It has been stored in a farmer s shed for 40 years. Thanks Loren, I m open to even wild guesses at this point.

- Dave Smith

When you say it chips out the other way, does it chip out in the same place or in a another place where the grain is running uphill relative to the new direction? Does making the lightest cut possible help at all?.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#13 posted 02-18-2017 03:56 PM

Thanks for the idea Jbrow. Since will be finishing with linseed oil I will try a small area. Like you say I will have to stay away from any glueup areas. Lazy, the chipping occurs in another place. Yes, where the grain runs uphill. Am working 3’ to 5’ boards and they all have at least 1 change in direction (some of the 5’ers have 3 or 4). Loren, I’m attempting to put a back bevel on the knives at present. Seems like a good idea. At this point I am resigned to a lot of scraping and sanding as I have already planed over half of the stock for this project. Guess I’ll have to cough up the money for a helical cutter before the next project with this Ash. Since a helical cutter is almost as much as I paid for the planer, maybe a whole new machine. Thank you all for the assistance. What a great community you have here!

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#14 posted 02-18-2017 04:05 PM

Yes, making cut’s less than 1/64” and very slow feed rate seems to help but not eliminate the chipping. But my planer does not have variable feed rate.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#15 posted 02-19-2017 05:19 AM

Not to insult your intelligence but here are a couple of silly things I would check if I was having this problem:
1) You said that you sharpened you jointer knives. Are they sharp enough that they would cut your finger if you rubbed it down its length? Also what angle is the bevel sharpened at?
2) Planer knives were just replaced. Make sure you didn’t install them backwards? Same thing goes for the jointer blades.

The last time I had chipout problems it turned out to be that the jointer blades were set too high (or out feed was too low).

Maybe a picture of the chipout will help someone spot the problem.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View papadan's profile

papadan

3584 posts in 3876 days


#16 posted 02-19-2017 08:04 AM

Use water to soak the boards, not just dampen them. the damp layer is cut away and the dry is tearing out. Soak them, it’s old dry wood, they will dryout quickly

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#17 posted 02-20-2017 01:10 AM

Lazy, you wouldn’t want to run your finger down the jointer blades very hard. I just tried to hold the factory bevel, as close as I can measure it’s about 40°. Sharpened on diamond stone to 2000 grit. It was suggested to put a 5° back bevel on them, but I’ve not had time to try yet. Set blades to suggested height but found that lowering them slightly helped. Pretty sure their not backwards, bevel out, correct. Don’t worry, you can’t offend what I don’t have. LOL. Case in point, I don’t know how to put a picture on here. But I’ll try. Will further demonstrate my lack of intelligence with my answer to papadan. Will soaking the boards cause them to warp?

Tried to insert pictures. If they worked. The bottom board is one of very few without a chance in grain direction. It came out fine. The top board is fine until hits uphill grain.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

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harriw

129 posts in 2715 days


#18 posted 02-20-2017 04:22 AM

Something else to try… Try going at the problem spots with a #80 scraper or similar (reverse the direction as needed to work with the grain) before sending the board through the planer? I haven’t exactly tested this exhaustively, but the few times I’ve tried it, it does seem to help a little at least. I just figured by doing that, you’re removing beforehand (in a grain-friendly way) some of the offending fibers that the planer blades would otherwise grab and tear. Then you’re planing the rest of the board down to match what you already did with the scraper.

-- Bill - Western NY

View Matt Hegedus's profile

Matt Hegedus

147 posts in 1301 days


#19 posted 02-20-2017 09:30 AM

Couple options come to mind

Personally, I would live with the tearout from the machines and deal with it with either a card scraper, a no 80 scraper, or my mujingfang jack plane with a back-beveled blade (12 degree back bevel for a total 57 degree cutting angle) I have the same issue on curly maple and that’s how I solve it. Works amazingly well on figurey, tear out prone woods like maple ash and Osage orange.

Of course that may not be feasible for you, depending on size of the project. But that mujingfang price is right. Zero complaints once I got it set up like that. It’s my go-to tearout eraser.

Let us know what you come up with.

-- From Pittsburgh, PA

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2481 posts in 2305 days


#20 posted 02-20-2017 01:24 PM

The tear out looks about normal too me.If that’s the cut from your jointer it looks like you have a knife or two that’s high.
If that’s the surface from your planer it’s really bad.Not sure there’s anything you can do about it.
Good Luck

Aj

-- Aj

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Tennessee

2901 posts in 3022 days


#21 posted 02-20-2017 01:31 PM

Not to be a killjoy, but for me, it did not finally disappear on planing until I finally went to a spiralhead.
As far as my jointer, it has straight blades, and yes, if I run up into the grain I will get a little chipout. On pieces that will be butt jointed together for say, a cutting board, not usually a problem.

-- Tsunami Guitars and Custom Woodworking, Cleveland, TN

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#22 posted 02-20-2017 03:50 PM

Welcome to Lumberjocks by the way!

Based on the pictures you uploaded, on the board at the top of your photo you are getting chip out where the grain has changed direction so that you are cutting uphill as in the diagram I included earlier. The grain is changing direction about 9” (?) from the left end of the board where there is sort of an X pattern in the grain. If I am thinking about this correctly, you started feeding from that end of the board? Once the grain changed back to flat and then downhill, you got no visible chipping. Not sure that you can do much about that other than cutting the board where the grain changes direction and feeding that section through in the other direction (or getting a $piral cutter head).

The grain pattern of board on the bottom of the picture looks like an almost quarter or rift sawn pattern which should give you less chipping as well but the main thing is that the grain doesn’t appear to change as drastically, at least in the section visible in the picture.

BTW, I think that my jointer’s blades have a 45 degree bevel angle which I have always thought was pretty standard so if you sharpened them to 40, that might be making matters worse?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Dave Smith's profile

Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#23 posted 02-20-2017 04:05 PM

Yes, the surfaces pictured are from the jointer. Boards all need flattening. Am already looking at spiral cutterheads. I will try a back bevel on the planer knives. Will let you know how that works out. This project, about 110 bf, is going to be a lot of scraping and sanding. Thanks for all the ideas.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

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Kirk650

672 posts in 1256 days


#24 posted 02-20-2017 04:16 PM

Like someone else mentioned, the spiral cutterhesd will likely solve the problem. I could not joint Osage Orange with the standard straight blades. After I went to a spiral carbide cutterhead, I can now joint Osage Orange.

What I don’t know is if my Dewalt 735, with sharp new blades (straight) and set on the slow feed rate, could work without chipout. What I do know is that the planer, when set on the slow feed rate, has not caused chipout on any wood I’ve run through it IF I take small cuts. Not so far.

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Kirk650

672 posts in 1256 days


#25 posted 02-20-2017 04:19 PM

Oops, I doubled

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Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#26 posted 02-20-2017 04:31 PM

Did not measure the angle very accurately, just matched the original. I believe the back bevel idea mentioned above may help. Seems valid anyway. Won’t get back in the shop for a day or two. With all the grain changes in this wood I’ve just been trying to feed in the direction with the most downhill grain (I have another 800bf of the same). I have looked at the DeWalt 735’s. Do they sell one with spiral cutterheads or do you have to add later? Am also looking at grizzly g0453z w/spiral cutterhead. Has anyone used the grizzly?

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#27 posted 02-20-2017 05:12 PM

Dewalt doesn’t sell a 735 with a spiral cutterhead but Byrd makes a Shelix replacement head for it that is about as expensive as as the planer cost initially which definitely makes you consider buying one like the Grizzly you mentioned.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Dave Smith's profile

Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#28 posted 02-20-2017 05:24 PM

Exactly. I know the grizzly is not a top end machine, but I’ve heard good things about them and I’m not wealthy.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#29 posted 02-20-2017 05:46 PM

I love my Grizzly 17” bandsaw. I would definitely consider one of their spiral head planers if I needed to replace my D735.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

672 posts in 1256 days


#30 posted 02-20-2017 05:57 PM

Although I am very fond of my Dewalt 735, my brother has a 15 inch Grizzly with the spiral cutterhead that I have my eye on. He doesn’t use it anymore. Before I put a spiral carbide cutterhead in the Dewalt, I’d probably talk to my brother or just go ahead and get a new Grizzly with an even bigger cut. In the interest of self preservation, I would discuss this with the wife before I started throwing money at a problem that doesn’t really exist. The Dewalt works just fine as-is.

View EarlS's profile

EarlS

3088 posts in 2856 days


#31 posted 02-20-2017 06:28 PM

All of these ideas are great from a technical standpoint, but my go to solution for tearout has been, and will always be 150 grit on my belt sander after planing. Leave the planed boards a bit proud (1/32 or less) and sand them. You remove any planer marks (waves) and start the sanding process. It is a good way to get the heavy sanding out of the way before starting on cutting or other work. It is certainly less expensive than a drum sander or a helical cutter head. If the tear out is too deep, fill it and sand it out. Otherwise, flip the board over and check the other side.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

View Dave Smith's profile

Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#32 posted 02-21-2017 02:56 AM

Thanks for the opinions on grizzly. Appreciate it. Now I just need to pick up a winning lottery ticket.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View Lazyman's profile (online now)

Lazyman

3948 posts in 1895 days


#33 posted 02-21-2017 03:07 AM

I was just browsing through the March Woodcraft catalog that showed up in my mailbox this weekend and I happened to notice that Rikon has a 13” benchtop planer with helical cutter head advertised for $679. I know nothing else about it but might not require a lottery ticket to be able to afford it this decade.

Model number is 25-130H.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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TungOil

1329 posts in 1002 days


#34 posted 02-21-2017 05:42 AM

the grain in that board reverses. You will never get a clean cut. Cut off the offending 8”, toss it in the fireplace and move on. No board will yield 100% usable material, there is always some waste. Don’t over think this- sometimes the answer is simple.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View Dave Smith's profile

Dave Smith

86 posts in 972 days


#35 posted 03-15-2017 01:08 AM

Just to follow up this topic. Thanks for all the suggestions. Many of them helped. This project required up to 60” boards so cutting at changes in grain direction was not really an option. But in the end, it was just very difficult wood. Hand planeing even caused tearout. I even got some small tearout with a cabinet scraper when I went against the grain accidentally. I left boards about 1/16” thick and worked with a belt sander, then a cabinet scraper before finish sanding. Came out alright​. I hope to have a new planer with a helical cutter before I work anymore of this Ash. It is beautiful wood, I believe it is just old and very dry. I purchased a large stack from a local farmer at what seemed a reasonable price. Got an even larger stack of Walnut from the same guy and it works”like butter”. Thanks again to everyone for your assistance.

-- Dave Smith - If our phones fall, we panic. If our friends fall, we laugh.

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1745 posts in 3316 days


#36 posted 03-15-2017 01:20 AM

what ever you do….please don’t back bevel your knives…..

It will make for a very weak cutting edge…...I have no idea who came up with this one….but they should not be giving advice

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