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View birdsmouth's profile

Paste Wax w/Tung Oil over Shellac?

by birdsmouth
posted 02-06-2017 04:40 PM


20 replies so far

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

8916 posts in 1465 days


#1 posted 02-06-2017 04:56 PM

Hi Jillian. I’m curious why you would want to mix tung oil into the paste wax? I could see using it OR the shellac but not sure I see the need to use both. The shellac should act as a sealer coat for your paint and paste wax will give a little added protection against normal wear and tear. If it were me, I’d put a couple coats of shellac on and then paste wax and leave the tung oil out all together. I’ve never used Tung oil though so perhaps it has some usefulness in this situation that I’m unaware of. Good luck!

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View birdsmouth's profile

birdsmouth

10 posts in 1697 days


#2 posted 02-06-2017 05:15 PM

Hi Kenny,

I am going to make my own batch of paste wax, and I have seen recipes that include tung oil. My reason for making my own is so that I can make a zero voc version. Looks to me like any homemade paste wax incorporates a good amount of oil at a ratio around 3 parts oil to one part wax. What I am wondering is, would tung oil be a good choice or should I choose another oil? I guess I’m also wondering what becomes of the oil in paste wax in general…does it penetrate or can it evaporate?

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2244 posts in 3270 days


#3 posted 02-06-2017 05:31 PM

On tung oil, first comes the question of if it’s really tung oil. Next is if the hardening oil has been treated. If it has, it shouldn’t need but a few days to harden.

I’m in the camp of “why mix …” Finish, then wax, though it won’t be tough finish and will abhore water.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

8916 posts in 1465 days


#4 posted 02-06-2017 05:35 PM

Ahhh, now I understand :-) Probably a question better suited for someone more educated than I. I use Johnson’s paste wax on lots of things but never really dug into the composition. I do know that some folks make a finishing wax using either paraffin or bees wax melted and mixed with turpentine. Might give you the desired protection without the need to add any oil.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2205 posts in 2316 days


#5 posted 02-06-2017 05:35 PM

Lots of voc’s in shellac, since that seems to be a requirement. Water borne finishes will have lower voc’s, and work well over paint. Look at mcguire’s synthetic sealant instead of wax. Waxes Im familiar with all have voc solvents to soften for application. Could try pure beeswax applied with a buffer.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

617 posts in 1075 days


#6 posted 02-06-2017 05:50 PM

Milk paint is some pretty tough paint. I just put paste wax on it, after the couple of paint coats dry.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2244 posts in 3270 days


#7 posted 02-06-2017 05:52 PM

For turnings that will not see wear, I use a mix linseed or tung oil, and dentured alcoho and shellac. It is quick, but it is as durable as it is easy.l

View birdsmouth's profile

birdsmouth

10 posts in 1697 days


#8 posted 02-06-2017 05:53 PM

Kirk650,

I have also read that milk paint is tough stuff. I know it’s very hard to remove once it is applied to wood!!

Do you have any thoughts on a low/no voc wax I could use over the milk paint? Have you ever heard of using tung oil in a homemade paste wax recipe? I have been scouring the internet about that last question, and I just can’t seem to land anywhere. I think I am going to call Hope’s and see what they have to say about it.

View birdsmouth's profile

birdsmouth

10 posts in 1697 days


#9 posted 02-06-2017 05:54 PM

Kelly,

Can you tell me more about that process? When you use tung oil, do you wait for it to cure before you apply your shellac?

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5454 posts in 2820 days


#10 posted 02-06-2017 05:58 PM

Kenny, I’m not a chemist (or ChE) but as I understand it, DNA is not considered a VOC….shellac should meet his requirements.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View birdsmouth's profile

birdsmouth

10 posts in 1697 days


#11 posted 02-06-2017 06:12 PM

I just called Rust Oleum customer service, and they told me that their Bullseye Shellac is non-toxic and hypoallergenic when cured which takes about a day and a half. The rep told me to give it 3 days to be sure.

Now all I have to figure out is this paste wax question…I called The Hope Company regarding Hope’s Tung Oil, and no one could answer my question which seems kinda weird.

I imagine just plain beeswax would be extremely difficult to apply, thus the oil content in the diy recipes I have seen.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

617 posts in 1075 days


#12 posted 02-06-2017 06:30 PM

Birdsmouth, once the paint or varnish or wax dries and cures, there should be no more VOC’s. And are there any VOC’s in milk paint anyway. It’s water based. I need to google that up. And I think you said the customer wants a paste wax on the toy box. If that’s what he wants, why are you so concerned about what wax to use? Just use plain old Johnson paste wax. I have an assortment of waxes, but that’s the one I use most. Goes on easy, not tough to shine up when dry, and it doesn’t streak much.

View birdsmouth's profile

birdsmouth

10 posts in 1697 days


#13 posted 02-06-2017 06:38 PM

Kirk650,

Yep, milk paint has zero voc’s. I want to finish the outside and inside of this box and it seems to me that if I use a wax like Johnson’s, especially on the inside of the box, there will be a lingering solvent smell which is something the recipient definitely can’t have.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

617 posts in 1075 days


#14 posted 02-06-2017 09:00 PM

Melt beeswax into warm Walnut oil. Without going out to the workshop to sniff the Walnut oil, I don’t remember it having an odor. Beeswax has a slight and very pleasant odor. That may be as close as you get to odorless.

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1334 posts in 1142 days


#15 posted 02-07-2017 04:23 AM

Sounds to me like you have agreed to use a finish schedule that has so many limitations it may be unworkable. You have quite a science project ahead of you trying to develop a new and untried finishing process. I would advise against experimenting with the actual project. You need to prove the process on scrap material.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3221 posts in 1714 days


#16 posted 02-07-2017 05:32 AM

Check out Tried and True wood finishes. Their products have no VOCs and are food contact safe. Their original wood finish is polymerized linseed oil and beeswax. I like their varnish oil which is linseed and pine resin. Really wonderful stuff and would meet your client’s needs beautifully. Just make sure you allow about a week for the finishing process. It takes 3-5 coats for a durable finish and it requires 24 hours between coats, with a 2-3 extra days for the finish to completely cure.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Rich's profile

Rich

4258 posts in 916 days


#17 posted 02-07-2017 05:43 AM



I would advise against experimenting with the actual project. You need to prove the process on scrap material.

- ArtMann

Great advice. That’s a no-brainer. Always test your ideas on a similar piece of wood. We go through sometimes a dozen or more test boards before we settle on a final choice.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2244 posts in 3270 days


#18 posted 02-07-2017 06:02 PM

It’s what they call a friction polish. Turners use it because, in the world of woodworking, it’s instant. If I get an ornament turned and sanded, I can apply a finish in a few minutes.

To use it on something like a box, you might need to apply it with a buffer or equivalent. I’ve tried it by hand and it worked, but it took a lot more work.

Here are some examples from various sites:

1 unit 3lb clear shellac
1 unit methyl hydrate (denatured alcohol)
1/4 unit BLO
1/4 unit paint thinner

Some add a bit of beeswax. I use the one above, but without the paint thinner. I shake it before each use and can get a high shine. However, as noted, if it’s too easy, that should be a sign of durability of the finish, and this goes on easy (so low durability). As such, the wax you put on top, which take it back down to a satin finish, will be your [high maintenance] protection.

The alcohol gases off quickly and the BLO or tung oil harden from friction, so VOC’s shouldn’t be an issue a day or so down the road.

As to applying tung oil, I do use the polymerized stuff (I buy “pure” or “100%” tung oil, otherwise it just be linseed oil passed as tung oil) to speed hardening, which takes about twenty-four hours [and “for sure” done in three days]. I do not put any finish on it until after it’s hardened. The only exception would be the friction finish, above, when it is applied at the same time, in a mix.


Kelly,

Can you tell me more about that process? When you use tung oil, do you wait for it to cure before you apply your shellac?

- birdsmouth


View EarlS's profile

EarlS

2649 posts in 2674 days


#19 posted 02-07-2017 06:49 PM

You might consider using Behlen’s Deluxing Compound as the wax. It goes on easily and buffs out to a really nice , hard, durable finish. You might also look at Arm-R-Seal as a finish. It is a blend of oil and polyurethane.

Generally, most oils take a day or so to dry and then there is little or no smell after that. Put it in a warm dry, well ventilated area and it should be ready for the next coat within 24 hours or so. After the final coat (3-4 coats typical) let the piece sit for an extra 24 hours and it should be dry.

FWIW – the term VOC (volatile organic compounds) is in reference to organic chemicals that have high vapor pressure (evaporate at low temperatures. Generally, the term is used in reference to petrochemical based materials. Even low-VOC compounds have VOC emissions.

In the context of your comments, tung oil is technically gives off VOC’s because some of it evaporates at room temperature which is how it dries. The same holds true for many oil based finishes. The oil substrate is the solvent that the finish is dissolved or suspended in. The solvent evaporates and the finish is left behind.

In case you wonder what qualifies me to know much about VOC’s – I’m a chemical engineer.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3221 posts in 1714 days


#20 posted 02-07-2017 11:40 PM

According to what I have read, pure tung oil and pure linseed oil that have no solvents added ( why the are considered pure) have no VOCs. I think that most of them are polymerized to make them cure more quickly after application through some sort of heat treatment, which may account for why there are no VOCs. They harden through oxidation rather than solvent evaporation so you use much less than a lot of other finishes but may take a little longer to fully cure.

Whatever you do do not buy anything labeled boiled linseed oil for this client. They almost always have solvents and heavy metals (cobalt) additives to speed cure time. There are several companies making finishes made with pure linseed or tung oil but I can highly recommend Tried and True’s finishes.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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