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All Replies on Sargent Planes - Type 2 #407 Refurb

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Sargent Planes - Type 2 #407 Refurb

by HorizontalMike
posted 02-05-2017 06:17 PM


17 replies so far

View Don W's profile

Don W

19201 posts in 2954 days


#1 posted 02-05-2017 06:21 PM

That looks great Mike.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View TravisH's profile

TravisH

668 posts in 2321 days


#2 posted 02-05-2017 06:39 PM

That turned out very nice. Always good to see the labor pay off with a nice tool in the end.

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EugdOT

289 posts in 941 days


#3 posted 02-05-2017 07:03 PM

Looks brand new off the assembly line, great work

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

10605 posts in 4438 days


#4 posted 02-05-2017 07:39 PM

COOL find…

COOL restoration…

COOL TOOL…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View Druid's profile

Druid

2069 posts in 3182 days


#5 posted 02-05-2017 07:58 PM

Hope it performs as nice as it looks.

-- John, British Columbia, Canada

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corelz125

723 posts in 1362 days


#6 posted 02-05-2017 08:27 PM

Mike is there much of a difference in outcome with the electrolysis bath compared to using evapo rust?

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canadianchips

2626 posts in 3383 days


#7 posted 02-05-2017 08:43 PM

Nice save.
I personally like sargent over stanley. They feel beefier to me !

-- "My mission in life - make everyone smile !"

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7788 posts in 3300 days


#8 posted 02-05-2017 08:44 PM

View Don W's profile

Don W

19201 posts in 2954 days


#9 posted 02-06-2017 01:03 PM

Mike, that’s a great article on electrolysis. Thanks for posting it.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View Ken90712's profile

Ken90712

17671 posts in 3575 days


#10 posted 02-06-2017 04:02 PM

Nice work Mike, fun project.

-- Ken, "Everyday above ground is a good day!"

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7788 posts in 3300 days


#11 posted 02-06-2017 06:36 PM

Thanks folks!

FWIW, I just posted on my website a Sargent Frog Comparison Type Study. I am of the opinion that the early Types 2 and 3 Frogs actually have a half-brother, AKA Type 2-1/2.

The Type 2-1/2, as I call it, is a hybrid between the Horseshoe with the Patent Date twisted lever, AND the Type 3 that has the folded lever and newer working end. I have at least three examples with the twisted Patent Date lever and the NEWER working end.

Any ideas Don? I will post to LJs once we come to an agreement on this. Thanks.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

19201 posts in 2954 days


#12 posted 02-06-2017 10:09 PM

What a coincidence. I was looking at this this morning. I think it may have to do with size

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7788 posts in 3300 days


#13 posted 02-07-2017 12:47 PM



What a coincidence. I was looking at this this morning. I think it may have to do with size
- Don W

Don,
I’m not real sure. Just double-checked and I actually have four “T2-1/2” as I call them. One “Type 2-1/2” on the linked image is on a #5408, two are #5414, and one a #414. FWIW, one #5408 has round frog nuts and all the others have square frog nuts on the bases. If it were not for the #5408 sized frog/plane, I would totally agree with you on the frogs.

As far as the bases, my examples of the #5400 series planes (I think size DOES matter here):
  • #5408 and smaller have round frog nuts
  • Starting with #5410 and larger, all of mine have square frog nuts on their bases.
Checking my Sargent catalogs for lateral types, the illustrations show:
  • 1894 catalog shows Horseshoe laterals
  • 1910 catalog shows Folded lateral
  • 1922 catalog ” ” ”
  • 1928 catalog ” ” “

I guess the bottom line is that what I am calling a “Type 2-1/2” frog, occurred between or at the same time as both the Horseshoe and Folded laterals patented in 1891.

While trying NOT to completely re-write Heckel’s Type Study of planes, IMO using the “2-1/2” moniker keeps Heckel’s original Plane Types relevant, as shown on his ID and Value Guide, but still allows for this anomaly.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

19201 posts in 2954 days


#14 posted 02-07-2017 05:48 PM

Mike, here is how I see it.
A type 1 is pre-lat.
A type 2 is a horseshoe with a twisted end.
A type 3 is twisted on one end and a simple folded to make contact with the iron on the other end.
A type 4 is folded in a U shape on one end and simple folded to make contact with the iron on the other end.

A type 2 or horseshoe has the has a rounded topped frog like this

A type 3 will have an ogee shaped frog like this

So I’m a little confused. I though you were referring to something different. The Ogee shape seems to be slightly different from size to size.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7788 posts in 3300 days


#15 posted 02-07-2017 06:22 PM

OK, good. That actually makes more sense, with both of Wright’s patents have the same twisted ‘1991 lever’ and different working ends. And then, the folded ‘U’ (Type4) lever came in with the advent of the VBM (in the 1910 Catalog). Got it! Geez, I was always thinking about the lever end and not the working end, hence my ongoing confusion.

SOooo, with all that being said, then all of the #5400 series would need to have Types 2 or 3 frogs on thin bodies. This works!

Just corrected my web page, just remember to refresh.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

19201 posts in 2954 days


#16 posted 02-07-2017 06:59 PM

Heckel makes this very very confusing.
On page 39 it states “TYPE 2 and 3 have the horseshoe style lateral adjuster. which has a horeshoe style pivot…....

The only thing that makes sense there is if it said
“TYPE 2 and 3 have the twisted style lateral adjuster. which has a horseshoe style pivot…....

The other things you want to look at are the two patents. I really don’t think the second lateral is patented at all. The second patent for Feb 3 1891 is for a lateral very similar to the horseshoe, that uses the adjuster fork mechanism for a pivot, with the disk above the pivot. The disk could still be bent (like the Unions) but its not like the type 3 lateral.

Heckel also only mentions 2 types of laterals for the transitional planes, which would lead me to the same conclusion you originally had, but then mentions a type 1, 2 and 3!

And it’s obvious that VBM started at the same time as the third (or type 3) lateral.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

22934 posts in 3069 days


#17 posted 02-07-2017 07:11 PM

kept looking at the plane at the top of this thread…..seems I had something that looked a bit like it…

except this plane ( now in the hands of fellow LJer BEKA) is a #3 sized, marked as a Fulton.

View of the frog, and..

The frog’s seats. Rear handle is a replacement, as the OEM one was moldy, and crumbled apart. A “Before”
( since DonW won’t allow it on HIS threads)

I had already shot it with some PB Blaster…...thought it could also kill the yellow fuzz growing out of the wood…

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

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