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View Dagobah's profile

Saw struggles to cut 8/4 hard maple. Normal?

by Dagobah
posted 09-14-2016 06:38 PM


23 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5372 posts in 2791 days


#1 posted 09-14-2016 06:48 PM

I’m guessing this was rip cuts (?). Did you have burning on the cut edges? More likely it was the blade, with a true rip blade (stay with TK) or at least a combo blade with fewer teeth you may have had more success. Forrest doesn’t recommend rip cuts in wood over 1” thick with their 40 tooth WWII. But the 30 tooth does just fine. Back to the “burning” thing, it’s also possible that the fence isn’t aligned properly (?).

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Dagobah's profile

Dagobah

76 posts in 961 days


#2 posted 09-14-2016 06:55 PM



I m guessing this was rip cuts (?). Did you have burning on the cut edges? More likely it was the blade, with a true rip blade (stay with TK) or at least a combo blade with fewer teeth you may have had more success. Forrest doesn t recommend rip cuts in wood over 1” thick with their 40 tooth WWII. But the 30 tooth does just fine. Back to the “burning” thing, it s also possible that the fence isn t aligned properly (?).

- Fred Hargis

Yes, these were all rip cuts. I had no idea different blades were rated for different depths! Looking here I can see that my blade is only rated for a max of 1 1/2” rip cuts. That seems to explain it.

On the burning, I’m fairly certain the fence is well aligned. Some cuts came out with minimal burn, but a few were burned most of the length. I’ll double check it when I’m home.

Guess I’ll be shopping for a dedicated rip blade!

View JayT's profile

JayT

6106 posts in 2509 days


#3 posted 09-14-2016 06:59 PM

Freud makes a 24 tooth Diablo rip blade that does a great job (D1024X). It’s amazing how much difference that will make.

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

5492 posts in 2018 days


#4 posted 09-14-2016 06:59 PM

The most important thing for clean (& efficient) rip cuts are power, alignment, the right blade & having a sharp blade. You can sacrifice a little efficiency when giving up a little power but the remainder are all very important. From where you’re at, I would buy a new, quality thin kerf ripping blade and recheck the alignment once more just to be sure and give it another go.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View MrFid's profile

MrFid

888 posts in 2202 days


#5 posted 09-14-2016 06:59 PM

Yeah that’s a lot of teeth to push through 8/4 Hard Maple. My Forrest 40T thin kerf combo blade can sometimes burn 8/4 hard maple on the first push. I’d give yourself some wiggle room widthwise (like half a blade’s worth) then take a skim cut, and finish with a handplane. Agree with Fred that misaligned fence might be the issue with burning. With Hard maple it’s probably not pinching the blade, but that would be a suspect if you were cutting a softer wood, especially if you don’t have a riving knife installed.

-- Bailey F - Eastern Mass.

View MrFid's profile

MrFid

888 posts in 2202 days


#6 posted 09-14-2016 07:01 PM



Freud makes a 24 tooth Diablo rip blade that does a great job (D1024X). It s amazing how much difference that will make.

- JayT

Yeah I’ve got that one… it’s very good.

-- Bailey F - Eastern Mass.

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

1284 posts in 2250 days


#7 posted 09-14-2016 07:07 PM



I m guessing this was rip cuts (?). Did you have burning on the cut edges? More likely it was the blade, with a true rip blade (stay with TK) or at least a combo blade with fewer teeth you may have had more success. Forrest doesn t recommend rip cuts in wood over 1” thick with their 40 tooth WWII. But the 30 tooth does just fine. Back to the “burning” thing, it s also possible that the fence isn t aligned properly (?).

- Fred Hargis

Actually Forrest indicates that the 40 tooth Woodworker II can be used to rip 2” hardwood (for all kerf sizes). It is the 48 tooth Woodworker II that they indicate should be limited to ripping 1” hardwood.

http://www.forrestblades.com/10-woodworker-ii-saw-blade-40-teeth.html

http://www.forrestblades.com/woodworker-ii-48-tooth/

I agree that the 30 tooth dedicated ripping blade would be optimal for the task, but at $145 each the 40 tooth blade seems to be the sweet spot.

View Dagobah's profile

Dagobah

76 posts in 961 days


#8 posted 09-14-2016 07:07 PM



... would buy a new, quality thin kerf ripping blade ..

- bigblockyeti

It looks like Freud makes a few TK rip blades. One being the (D1024X) mentioned above:
https://www.amazon.com/D1024X-Diablo-10-Inch-24-Tooth-PermaShield/dp/B00008WQ2V/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1473879856&sr=1-1&keywords=D1024X

And a more expensive version:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000225UH/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=R5KTRFQ7EDJ5&coliid=I28F5IPJ8AJ2JI&psc=1

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

5492 posts in 2018 days


#9 posted 09-15-2016 12:18 AM

I think you’d be fine with the less expensive option. The more expensive blade would likely stay cooler if being used a lot under heavy load and it probably has a bit thicker carbide too so it could be sharpened a few more times as well.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7243 posts in 2497 days


#10 posted 09-15-2016 01:49 AM

When the lights dimmed, it made me wonder if adding a dedicated outlet/breaker for the saw wouldn’t help.
- Dagobah

That is a 13A saw – which is pushing a standard 15A wall circuit pretty hard. As per the manual for that saw:

A separate electrical circuit should be used for your machines. This circuit should not be less than #12 wire and should be protected with a 20-amp time lag fuse.

If you are dimming lights, then the saw isn’t getting enough juice – so putting it on a dedicated circuit should improve the machines performance. How much? Won’t know until you try :)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 960 days


#11 posted 09-15-2016 02:31 AM

Do yo have a riffing knife on your saw? The internal stress of the wood could have been pinching the blade also.
IMBI I never found a combo blade worth a poop, my thin K Freud rib blade rips great, rated excellent for ripping, and is rated very good for cross cuts, where there combo is rate only fare for both.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

598 posts in 1046 days


#12 posted 09-15-2016 02:11 PM

I use a 40 tooth std kerf Forrest WW2 blade in my 1.5 hp saw. Works fine and has for years, but it works much better since I re-aligned the fence to the blade. Don’t know how it got out of alignment, but it did, and was causing a lot of drag and burning/scorching of the edge being cut. No scorch marks now.

As for light dimming, or even a breaker being thrown, I’m guessing that the internal stresses in the wood are pinching down on the back side of the blade. I’ve had that problem many times. That, and a mis-aligned fence, will bog your blade for sure.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

8631 posts in 1436 days


#13 posted 09-15-2016 02:17 PM


Freud makes a 24 tooth Diablo rip blade that does a great job (D1024X). It s amazing how much difference that will make.

- JayT

Yeah I ve got that one… it s very good.

- MrFid

Ditto. I think a dedicated rip blade will fix your problem. You combo blade will handle most cuts but rips on thick, dense woods like HM are hard on a blade with that many teeth.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View 53d's profile

53d

5 posts in 1360 days


#14 posted 09-15-2016 04:12 PM

I have that same saw and the same blade. I think Freud says that 50T blade is good to like 1.5” maybe? A TK Rip would be better suited for wood that thick.

As for the lights dimming, you need to need to have the saw on a circuit by itself. Whoever had my house built in the 1970’s, had all the outlets in the garage put on individual circuits. So I run tools off one outlet and the dust collection off another outlet. When I tried to run a shop vac with the saw on the same outlet, it would occasionally trip the breaker. With it on it’s own circuit, it never has a problem. I’ve ripped 8/4 Walnut and 8/4 Hard Maple with the TK Rip blade and the saw doesn’t bog down at all. Only problem is stress in the wood pinching the riving knife. Sometimes it pinches so bad I physically can’t move the wood through the saw. I have to shut it down, pull it back and cut again. Riving knives are awesome considering what probably would happen in those situations without one

View jmartel's profile

jmartel

8380 posts in 2448 days


#15 posted 09-15-2016 04:31 PM

In addition to the above, are you using your saw on a long extension cord? Keep a heavy gauge cord 15ft or less if possible. I had issues with an old craftsman TS when ripping thicker wood because I had it on a 50ft cord. Put it on a shorter one and it was significantly better.

You need a dedicated ripping blade, and a dedicated crosscutting blade will do wonders for how clean the cut is as well. Personally I hate combo blades.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1366 posts in 1218 days


#16 posted 09-15-2016 04:39 PM

Dagobah,

Your experience brings to mind one of my earlier projects. The project was a workbench. The material was 8/4 hard maple, and the saw was a Craftsman 1-1/2 hp saw probably equipped with a Craftsman rip blade. Twelve 6’ rip cuts in all. I recall this project only because the each rip cut was slow going, the saw was bogging down, the cuts were burning and basement workshop was filled with smoke. Somehow I managed to power through the cuts and finished the workbench. The tips provided thus far would have sure been handy for me back in the day, but 8/4 maple is a tough material to cut.

View Dagobah's profile

Dagobah

76 posts in 961 days


#17 posted 09-15-2016 04:47 PM


In addition to the above, are you using your saw on a long extension cord?

Yes, it’s on a short, 15’ heavy duty cord.

View Dagobah's profile

Dagobah

76 posts in 961 days


#18 posted 09-15-2016 04:47 PM

Thanks for all the feedback. I’ll definitely be getting a rip blade before the next project and making sure everything is aligned. Here’s how the offending wood ended up turning out. First end-grain cutting board I’ve made. This is pre-finish.

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

372 posts in 1183 days


#19 posted 09-15-2016 06:11 PM

All the foregoing comments are good. Different blade, separate circuit. I’m of the “Tim “The Tool Man” Taylor” school of thought. More horsepower! as the third solution. While the wrong blade will bog down almost any saw under the right (i.e., worst) conditions, having enough power to do the job is another. I’ve literally burned up cheaper table saws, replaced motors, etc, trying to do too much work with them (thick or continuous ripping usually). A good (true) 3hp/240V. Unisaw or Powermatic will make quick work of 8/4 maple (or 12/4 for that matter). I’ve never been able to bog down my Rockwell unisaw and I’ve cut plenty of 8/4, 12/4 and (in two passes) 16/4 stock.

One more idea. When ripping thick stock, I will often resort to the bandsaw—-my Hitachi B600 resaw will rip anything you throw at it—even if it does have that crappy “3hp” universal (screamin’ demon) motor on it. With a much thinner kerf, and a good skip-tooth blade, this is the perfect time to call on the bandsaw for support. You’ll have to joint the faces afterwards, but you’ll do that anyway on most TS cuts.

Ok, one last thought, if you can manage it. Rewire your saw for 240v. That will reduce the current in the motor and it may run cooler. Not sure if your saw supports that or if you can manage that in your shop. Sounds like you may be electrically limited as it is. But if you are going to put in another circuit anyway…just a thought.

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Half of all boards cut to a specific length will be too short.

View Dagobah's profile

Dagobah

76 posts in 961 days


#20 posted 09-15-2016 06:38 PM



One more idea. When ripping thick stock, I will often resort to the bandsaw…
...Ok, one last thought, if you can manage it. Rewire your saw for 240v.
- sawdustdad
I don’t have a bandsaw yet, but keep finding reasons to add it to the short list.

You make a good point, if I’m going to add an outlet, why not do it right and go 220. I remember reading that the Delta can be wired for this.

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1579 posts in 3365 days


#21 posted 09-15-2016 08:35 PM

Ok I’ll throw my 2cw in on this. If lights dimming I’d say you scuking a lot of power there for the 1.5 115v line ok, but 2” is not anyhting real hard. Could be speed and you are going to fast. Could be your blade. Is it new or recently sharpened. Does it have a lot of crap on it and need a good cleainging?

Tooth count could be an issue as well thats a lot for ripping thicker stock. As others stated an out of aligned blade/fence can do it.

I like my forrest 20T for pure ripping thick stock (12/4), and WWII 40T for all others. I’ve cut 12/4 no issues but thats with more hp and slowing it down.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7243 posts in 2497 days


#22 posted 09-15-2016 09:36 PM

Couple of points -

As long as the circuit supplying power to the saw is sufficient (amperage and wire size), switching from 120v to 240v will not get you much, if any improvement. It will not make the motor any more powerful, run cooler, prolong it’s life, or any of the other myths you hear. However, if you are on an underpowered circuit shared with other devices, as this situation seems to suggest, then moving to a dedicated circuit will help – be it 120v or 240v.

Secondly, a 50T combo blade is not an ideal choice for trying to rip stock, particularly thicker hardwoods. Freud recommends that only 3 to 4 teeth engage the stock when ripping (and 5 to 7 when crosscutting). This can be accomplished by using a blade with fewer teeth, or raising the blade so there are less teeth engaging. The later might not be possible depending on the thickness of the stock and the number of teeth on the blade. Here is some info from Freud:

• The sawblade’s projection (t) with respect to the work piece must be greater than the height of the blade’s tooth (fig. 18). Increase or decrease the projection of the saw blade to improve finish quality.

• The number of teeth cutting the wood simultaneously must be between 3 or 4 for ripping and ideally 5 to 7 for crosscutting. With less than 3 teeth cutting the sawblade begins to vibrate leading to an uneven cut. If you want to cut work pieces with increased thicknesses (T-fig.21), but wish to maintain the same diameter saw blade, then use a blade with less teeth. If instead you want to cut work pieces with a reduced thickness, but also maintain the same diameter saw blade, then use a blade with more teeth.


Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View lennyk's profile

lennyk

34 posts in 1130 days


#23 posted 09-16-2016 01:14 AM

I use a Freud 24t rip blade also and have no problems with Purple Heart 2”
A world of difference vs the Freud combo blade I had before. Would never buy a combo blade again.

I also have my blade trailing edge angled just very very slightly away from the fence so the wood does not contact the trailing edge and
Less chance of burn marks there.


Freud makes a 24 tooth Diablo rip blade that does a great job (D1024X). It s amazing how much difference that will make.

- JayT


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