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View Osterhage's profile

Table saw, jointer and planer advice needed

by Osterhage
posted 09-08-2016 03:47 AM


29 replies so far

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

979 posts in 1846 days


#1 posted 09-08-2016 04:33 AM

Take safety lessons first …

M

-- Madmark - [email protected] Wiretreefarm.com

View isotope's profile

isotope

177 posts in 2017 days


#2 posted 09-08-2016 12:46 PM



I have access to a huge supply of rough sawn cherry, walnut and maple in a barn on our family farm, and can cut more whenever.

This fact strongly suggests to me that your long term thinking should be to definitely get the three machines you need to convert this raw stock into ready to use material; jointer, planer and table saw. You kind of need all three. If budget is an issue, that CL is your friend. Particularly for the jointer. They are simple machines and new ones don’t really have any added safety features. A basic lunch box planer, even though it’ll have it’s drawbacks, will get the job done. As for the table saw, my personal opinion is that the most important element is the fence. If you get something used, try to find something with an upgraded fence. Everything else is secondary.

You definitely sound like a competent individual; however, MadMark’s point is valid. Try to find someone with lots of experience to “train” you. I did a lot of the learning by myself and had an accident when using improper technique. I got very lucky it wasn’t worse. I just didn’t know any better.

View jdmaher's profile

jdmaher

450 posts in 2972 days


#3 posted 09-08-2016 01:37 PM

I believe tables aw is a wise first priority. Since you’re rightly concerned about safety, you should at look at a SawStop. I don’t have one (I have Delta), but if I were in the market, that’s what I’d look at first. As others have advised, get some training. Before buying my first tables saw, I struck a deal to get 4 hours of instruction from the guy who sold it to me. He was missing two fingers, but he beat safety into my head for all 4 hours. It was enough to get going. 30 years later, I still have all my fingers and I still avoid any move on the tables saw that I have the slightest hesitation about.

I don’t use a jointer, but there have been LOTS of times when I wish I had one. I choose lumber carefully to make sure I can use a sled on my Dewalt planer to flatten one face. And I do straight line rip on the table saw (sometimes hand planing after). If I had the funds, I’d buy a jointer. I’ve never needed more than 13” width on my planer.

I do have 220V circuits, and that supports my 3HP tablesaw easily. I’ve never felt the need, but if I were buying new, I’d consider a 5HP (8/4 maple burns a little for me).

Usually, I advise people to go slow and see how they like woodworking before they buy a lot of equipment. With your DIY experience and interest, I bet you’re gonna love it!

First, and always, stay safe. Lumberjocks is an incredible resource so don’t hesitate to ASK.

-- Jim Maher, Illinois

View Robert's profile

Robert

3402 posts in 1873 days


#4 posted 09-08-2016 02:41 PM

IMO you are on the right track focusing on a quality. However – funds permitting – I would suggest skip the contractor or homeowner type saws and go right to a 3HP cabinet saw. My philosophy is any tool I buy is an investment, not an expense.

I believe all the major brands will do the job for you (Jet, Delta, Grizzly, PM, General and SS).

Personally, I have a Jet Xacta and it was a huge step up from the C’man POJ I was using. After nearly 15 years it has remained rock solid accurate with power to handle any task I throw at it. I believe underpowered TS’s actually increase the risk of injury.

The planer and jointer you mentioned are excellent choices and will do the rough milling task very well.

If you have never used a TS, I STRONGLY urge you to research the safety issues, watch some videos, and attend a live demo. Perhaps a SawStop would be a good consideration for you.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6099 posts in 1105 days


#5 posted 09-08-2016 02:54 PM

I do have 220V circuits, and that supports my 3HP tablesaw easily. I ve never felt the need, but if I were buying new, I d consider a 5HP (8/4 maple burns a little for me).

- jdmaher

maybe you need to use a sharp blade ??

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

5206 posts in 4353 days


#6 posted 09-08-2016 02:56 PM

Some may not agree, but I’m in the Grizz camp with no regrets at all. Price/value is my mantra, and after the purchase service and parts is important.
I wouldn’t touch the once-great Delta brands of today.
Make SURE you understand the tools very well before blasting off. Ya don’t wanna get hurt.
Good luck with your choices.
Bill

-- [email protected]

View KelleyCrafts's profile

KelleyCrafts

3716 posts in 1132 days


#7 posted 09-08-2016 03:02 PM

I would like to argue a band saw into the equation. If you have a circular saw then I would get a band saw, jointer, and planer. If you have the budget then add a table saw of course.

I buy rough lumber all the time (usually 3×8 or 3×12) and can’t even think about breaking it down to size without my band saw to resaw for thickness. If you have a circular saw you can probably get by for the time being. Just my thoughts. You haven’t stated your budget but Grizzly isn’t anywhere near the top of the line but it is a great value. I own Grizzly stuff and will likely buy more in the future, I’m happy with it.

-- Dave - http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

View Osterhage's profile

Osterhage

5 posts in 1022 days


#8 posted 09-08-2016 04:42 PM

Everyone’s advice is much appreciated so far. Definitely on board with the SAFETY concerns.

A few points of clarification:
- I have several friends with contractor T/S (and they still have all 10 fingers). I have watched many videos on safe usage too. I certainly will keep the training wheels on and get some supervised “live fire” training – that’s great advice.

- Budget is sort of whatever it takes for the right balance of price and value. I was working under the assumption the T/S would be the most expensive tool I buy and the rest would be based on that “tier” so to speak. Right now I think the top end for me is the 1023RL (~$1500 with a roller base, and hopefully find a coupon code on the back of this catalog I’m still waiting on them to send me). I started my research at the StopSaw website (and I’ve seen this said here before: “ask me about that 2x premium after I cut off my finger”) – but that’s sort of my reaction: very amazing technology, massive premium – with lots of people using other table saws safely…

- I’ll look into bandsaws… The stock I have access to ranges between 4/4 and 10/4 and I dont think anything wider than 12”, but there are some live edges in the stacks.

View HerbC's profile

HerbC

1801 posts in 3252 days


#9 posted 09-08-2016 04:54 PM

Just a brief reminder from someone who’s been there, it only takes a moment to destroy the safe record you’ve spent a lifetime building up. I had fifty years of accident free use of standard table saws when I had my “accident” which has certainly impacted my life and use of my left hand.

Good Luck!

Be Careful!

Herb

-- Herb, Florida - Here's why I close most messages with "Be Careful!" http://lumberjocks.com/HerbC/blog/17090

View KelleyCrafts's profile

KelleyCrafts

3716 posts in 1132 days


#10 posted 09-08-2016 04:55 PM

The 4/4 stuff is fine but the 10/4 stuff you will likely need a bandsaw to get where you want it. Personally I think you should look at the Grizzly stuff. Most of my tools are yard sale finds 40 years old. I do have a new Grizzly bandsaw and am very happy with it. Takes everything I’ve shoved through it thus far.

IF I ever get a new table saw I will likely get a Grizzly or a PM66 or something. Using a cheap Rockwell 10 from a yard sale now. I have a good fence on it and it works just fine. Wish it had better dust collection but I honestly don’t use it much except to rip long rough sawn to width, then to the band saw for thickness, then joint/plane, then crosscut with hand saw or miter saw.

Those are the tools you need to do the job. I honestly think the band saw and jointer/planer are the most important IF you have other rip cut methods (like a circular saw). Again, just my thoughts. I personally have all of them and need them all but if I had to give one up it would be my table saw.

-- Dave - http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8290 posts in 3768 days


#11 posted 09-08-2016 07:07 PM

The PM66 and G1023RL are industrial cabinet saws, and are significant steps above the 36-725 and G0715P hybrid saws in terms of power, mass, stability, ruggedness, quality, accuracy, long term reliability, etc. If you have 220v and ample budget, that’s the way I’d suggest you go. If a used PM66 were in nice shape, I wouldn’t let lack of a riving knife be the reason not to buy it….a decent splitter accomplishes a very similar feat, and the rest of the saw is superior to the others in most regards. A lesser saw is certainly capable of doing the job, but will fight you more. Blade and setup is critical regardless of which saw you pursue.

The G1023R series is a heck of the bang for the buck, and would give you modern safety features like the riving knife…same goes for the G0690.

If you really want the ultimate in safety and performance, something like the Saw Stop PCS or ICS.

For a jointer I’d recommend a stationary floor unit vs a portable….6” mininum, 8”+ if you can swing it. Grizzly is a good bang for the buck here too.

A good portable planer with a cutterhead lock and dust chute work well….DW735, DW734, Ridgid R4331.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View jmartel's profile

jmartel

8467 posts in 2543 days


#12 posted 09-08-2016 07:21 PM

If you can’t swing the G1023, don’t get the 715P. Accuracy issues and table mounted trunions. If you get a hybrid, get a 771. Doesn’t have the alignment issues and you get cabinet mounted trunions.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2388 days


#13 posted 09-08-2016 07:27 PM

I think if you buy the 1023 in 3hp it will be the last table saw you ever buy. Good workhorse, enough power.

If you think someday when you have more money or are in to woodworking more you want a sawstop, then you could consider going with the cheaper delta or Grizzly now.

Grizzly jointer are good if you can’t find a deal on CL. And the DW735 jointer I have is a great machine.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View bkseitz's profile

bkseitz

295 posts in 1703 days


#14 posted 09-09-2016 12:52 PM

I started with a Craftsman contractor saw and have upgraded it over the years. It may not be the most powerful think out there but it gets the job done. I work with large sheet goods, 3/4 ply, for most of my projects. So a large table has been a must.

Had I to do it over again knowing what I know now, I would likely go with a Cabinet saw either a PM66 with large side table or a StopSaw. The fact that the blade is toast when the Stopsaw goes off has me leaning towards the PM66.

-- bkseitz, Washington "if everything is going well, you've obviously overlooked something"

View UpstateNYdude's profile

UpstateNYdude

928 posts in 2376 days


#15 posted 09-09-2016 01:05 PM


The fact that the blade is toast when the Stopsaw goes off has me leaning towards the PM66.

- bkseitz

Better than your fingers/hand/random body part, I’ll take losing a $50-120 blade to losing my finger or doing some irreparable damage to my hands/arms any day of the week. Good luck pushing the wood through the tablesaw with your claw.

-- Nick, “I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it.” – Vincent Van Gogh

View Matt's profile

Matt

160 posts in 1344 days


#16 posted 09-09-2016 03:21 PM

I’ve got a Grizzly Jointer 6” and when my blades needed to be replaced I just put in the spiral cutter head. (I would have gone that route first if I had known better. ) Ideally I’d rather have a 8”, but overall the 6” really hasn’t been a hindrance with my limited work. I’ve got the lunchbox DW 735X and it’s outstanding. I’ll be adding the byrd to that once I use up the rest of the knives (it’ll be while since it came with extra knives and there is two cutting edges on each knife). I went with the SS PCS 1.75HP and have also been exceptionally happy with it. That being said, it’s pricey. Given the option to do it all over again – All I would change is I would get an 8” jointer. I’ve got a review on the SS and pics of it all in my “workshop”.

Grizzly makes good stuff and I’d recommend their products 7 times out of 10. I’m not a vendor specific type of person, but I do try and avoid “rigid” stuff at this point.

-- My "projects" always look better with beer goggles.

View Cooler's profile

Cooler

299 posts in 1236 days


#17 posted 09-09-2016 03:28 PM

I didn’t know anything about woodworking when I bought my table saw at the age of 50. The one thing I am glad that I did was to get a 48” fence. In the absence of a 48” fence you will end up doing a lot of math, and if you are like me, making a lot of mistakes.

If you have the room, a 48” wide table is a blessing.

-- This post is a hand-crafted natural product. Slight variations in spelling and grammar should not be viewed as flaws or defects, but rather as an integral characteristic of the creative process.

View Osterhage's profile

Osterhage

5 posts in 1022 days


#18 posted 09-09-2016 04:40 PM

Given the positive commentary on StopSaw – would anyone recommend the contractor version? At $1599, I guess its easier to swallow and I’m more likely to keep my fingers – but looks like a lot of compromises vs Grizzly 1023 or 715p?

There was one mention of the 771 over the 715p, does anyone else share that opinion? It’s cheaper, and the trunnions are attached to the cabinet (if that’s really a big deal), but the fence looks lighter-duty vs the 715p.

It’s practically a ubiquitous claim from owners of 6” jointers that they wish they had 8” or bigger – what are some examples of a project where the 8” would be a big help over the 6”? Would an 8” jointer be all you’d need – in other words, is it preferable to use an edge jig on a T/S and a planer sled instead of having a 6” jointer?

Sounds like there’s a lot of satisfaction with the DW735 and that a 13” planer is plenty.

There’s great information in this thread – thank you all for helping me out.

View Matt's profile

Matt

160 posts in 1344 days


#19 posted 09-09-2016 05:20 PM

The loft bed that I made would have been built to my original specifications if I had an 8” jointer. I wanted to originally use 7” bed rails. (Yea, I could have paid to get those 2 pieces face jointed but, well I didn’t.) Also when face jointing a >5” anything takes longer. That being said, the new cutter head (Byrd) is noticeably quieter and the machine (in my head) seems to not work as hard.

-- My "projects" always look better with beer goggles.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8290 posts in 3768 days


#20 posted 09-09-2016 05:39 PM

There’s definitely a significant tradeoff when comparing the G1023RL to the Saw Stop contractor saw. The G1023 has a full enclosure, enclosed 3hp motor, cabinet mounted trunnions, beefier underpinnings, Biese style steel fence, solid cast wings, and has a lot more mass. The stock SS contractor saw has steel wings and a pretty cheap aluminum fence….the fence and the wings can be upgraded, but the end cost pushes $2k to make that saw to the level of performance I’d want.

The Griz offers a lot more saw for less money IMO, but if will take a finger without flinching. It really boils down to if you want the most saw for the money, or the safest saw.

http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/34563

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Osterhage's profile

Osterhage

5 posts in 1022 days


#21 posted 09-09-2016 05:50 PM

Matt – I read your SS review – it’s very helpful. I know that price/value logic all too well… this all started with my FIL giving me a couple hundred bucks towards a “table saw fund” for helping him build a deck and me thinking that was about half the cost of the R4512 or 36-725, which are all I’d ever seen at the “big box stores”—- all before I started researching and talking to people… have now crept all the way up to “maybe the 1023”... now i might be regretting not grabbing either PM-66 off my local CL a couple weeks ago.

Knotscott – what do you see as the minimum for a hobbyist level T/S? Are the trade-offs like comparing a Corolla to a Camry to an Avalon? Sure they all get you and 3-4 other people from A to B, but there’s obviously nicer features for enjoying the ride? Or is it more apt to saying a contractor saw is a sedan and c’mon dude, you need a pickup truck for this kind of job and an F150 is good enough but an F250 would be ideal? Not really a car guy, but that analogy popped into my head…

View Cooler's profile

Cooler

299 posts in 1236 days


#22 posted 09-09-2016 06:03 PM

I have a 48” Delta Contractors II table saw and I have never felt that it was inadequate. You’d have to be cutting pretty thick stock to require a 3 hp cabinet saw.

I have wished that the blade would tilt both directions however…

-- This post is a hand-crafted natural product. Slight variations in spelling and grammar should not be viewed as flaws or defects, but rather as an integral characteristic of the creative process.

View Matt's profile

Matt

160 posts in 1344 days


#23 posted 09-09-2016 06:16 PM

If there is no rush – be patient and wait for the CL deal to come; they do come but go fast so have that cash sitting there waiting….

If I were to compare the SS contractor to the PCS to the ICS.

I’d say that the contractor is the Toyota Takoma with 50k miles on it. It’s a great truck, and has a nice fit and finish, will likely get 99% of the tasks at hand done for a hobbyist and has a pretty good crash test as well.

The PCS 1.75HP is an F250 short bed with the gas V8 motor, and a fully equipped Lariat trim package – Still pretty easy to park and you can always find a gas station.

The PCS 3HP is the F250 long bed with Powerstroke Diesel motor, also with a fully equipped Lariat trim package – but a little harder to get fuel for and parking becomes a bit cumbersome.

The ICS on the other hand is a the F450, Dually, long bed King Ranch trim. It’s not going to fit in most garages, most parking lots and spots aren’t wide enough, but you’re gonna be able to put 500,000 miles on it and drive it all day every day in a production environment with a very minimal likelihood of a problem.

That was kinda fun to write. I need to stop looking at the 2017 F450’s…... :)

-- My "projects" always look better with beer goggles.

View Osterhage's profile

Osterhage

5 posts in 1022 days


#24 posted 09-09-2016 06:47 PM

There’s no real rush, but no one who knows me would accuse me of patience in pursuit of something I want.

Glad you enjoyed the analogy…

Hey Cooler – can you elaborate on the merits of longer fence/rails? Seems most (if not all) saws come pretty “short” in that department, but there’s the option to extend. Are you referring to 48” crosscuts or extra wide rip cuts where the math gets harder? Would the alternatives be a miter saw for cross cuts and a circular saw to get a larger (4×8) panel rip cut before heading to the table saw?

View Cooler's profile

Cooler

299 posts in 1236 days


#25 posted 09-09-2016 06:53 PM



There s no real rush, but no one who knows me would accuse me of patience in pursuit of something I want.

Glad you enjoyed the analogy…

Hey Cooler – can you elaborate on the merits of longer fence/rails? Seems most (if not all) saws come pretty “short” in that department, but there s the option to extend. Are you referring to 48” crosscuts or extra wide rip cuts where the math gets harder? Would the alternatives be a miter saw for cross cuts and a circular saw to get a larger (4×8) panel rip cut before heading to the table saw?

- Osterhage

If your fence goes to 30 inches and you need a 34” wide cut, you need to do the math of 34” plus the blade thickness, and deduct it from the width of the board. Which is not too bad if it is a full width board, but once it has been cut once all that goes out the window.

I rarely use a ruler. I use two strips of wood clamped together to transfer a dimension directly to the fence. In that way my math deficiency never shows up. It is the most foolproof way I know of to take measurements.

-- This post is a hand-crafted natural product. Slight variations in spelling and grammar should not be viewed as flaws or defects, but rather as an integral characteristic of the creative process.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8290 posts in 3768 days


#26 posted 09-09-2016 07:22 PM



Knotscott – what do you see as the minimum for a hobbyist level T/S? Are the trade-offs like comparing a Corolla to a Camry to an Avalon? Sure they all get you and 3-4 other people from A to B, but there s obviously nicer features for enjoying the ride? Or is it more apt to saying a contractor saw is a sedan and c mon dude, you need a pickup truck for this kind of job and an F150 is good enough but an F250 would be ideal? Not really a car guy, but that analogy popped into my head…

- Osterhage

Many folks start with a smaller benchtop portable with a universal motor….mostly because they didn’t know any better, didn’t want to allocate more funds, didn’t have space, etc. They’ll cut wood, but are just too small, too loud, generally too fidgity, can’t really be upgraded, are more prone to break, and aren’t worth fixing when they do. It’s subjective, but I’d view the minimum that you could keep long term, grow with, and even upgrade as you go, to be a full size cast iron saw with a belt drive induction motor. A basic contractor saw with a good fence is plenty capable of being setup to do good work, and has sufficient work space in front of the blade. Solid cast iron wings can be added to something like that. If the fence is mediocre, that can be upgraded too. They’ll likely to have standard miter slots too, so many accessories can be added. The difference between a cheap benchtop and a full size contractor saw is major IMO.

The draw backs of a basic full size contractor saw are things like an outboard motor location on older models, lack of mass, smallish motor, poor dust collection, small handwheels, lighter duty under pinnings, etc. Though none of those are real show stoppers, a hybrid saw will address some of those issues with an enclosed cabinet and motor, and usually a bit more mass. Cabinet mounted trunnions are easier to align, but even table mounted trunnions should be a once and done ordeal….maybe twice! ;-) It’s worth noting that most hybrids that have cabinet mounted trunnions, are still considerably lighter duty than those found on a true industrial cabinet saw.

The difference when you get to a full blown industrial 3hp+ cabinet saw can be fairly significant. The motor power is close to double what’s found on a 120v saw, which is pretty noticeable. Even though with good alignment and good blade choice, my hybrid and contractor saws could cut to about full blade height without severe struggle, you still have to be pretty mindful of the feed rate and all the other aspects of cutting…simply put, smaller motors are more sensitive to blade selection, saw alignment, wood thickness, density, straightness, feedrate, etc. 3hp+ cuts just about anything with ease, and allows the user to dictate the pace, and usually use whatever blade is in the saw. A motor that doesn’t struggle much, will generally last longer too. The sheer mass is also pretty noticeable…a 500+ pound saw is much less prone to wiggle or movement during a cut. There’s less vibration in theory, but that’s a harder thing to notice. The larger handwheels are both smoother and easier to operate….it’s not a big deal, but is something an avid cabinet saw user would notice immediately when forced to use a hybrid or contractor saw with smaller handwheels. The under pinnings of a cabinet saw are much beefier…..in use, you’re not likely to notice, but you’re simply less likely to encounter any problems with the gears and trunnion assembly over time.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View bkseitz's profile

bkseitz

295 posts in 1703 days


#27 posted 09-10-2016 01:58 AM


The fact that the blade is toast when the Stopsaw goes off has me leaning towards the PM66.

- bkseitz

Better than your fingers/hand/random body part, I ll take losing a $50-120 blade to losing my finger or doing some irreparable damage to my hands/arms any day of the week. Good luck pushing the wood through the tablesaw with your claw.

- UpstateNYdude

Nick, That’s what push blocks, feather boards and a host of other safety equipment is for.

The blade and a new Brake Cartridge makes the price a little higher. I’m not downplaying the benefit however, for me, the price to upgrade doesn’t seem worth it at present. If I was just buying a Table Saw for the first time, knowing what I know now I’d likely invest in the SawStop 5HP Cabinet. However, my shop wasn’t a planned activity. It has grown as needs have arisen. My current focus is around dust collection which is a top priority given my asthma. Once I’ve address that its possible—unlikely unless Santa Claus is good to me—I’d replace TS.

-- bkseitz, Washington "if everything is going well, you've obviously overlooked something"

View dannmarks's profile

dannmarks

929 posts in 974 days


#28 posted 10-26-2016 12:46 AM

I have been wood working most of my life and I am older. I bought American made equipment before Grizzly and all of the other knock offs came out. I bought my clunky old 8” Boyce Crane Jointer and a Parks Planer. The Parks planer and B/C Jointer were good for its day. The Parks Planer cost $1600 new in 1980. For less than that I was able to buy an 8” Grizzly Jointer, and 3 horse Grizzly Cabinet Table Saw. Anyways I have continued to buy Grizzly ever since and I am telling you the quality is better than Delta and all the rest at a lot less cost. I have had my table saw now for 36 years and yes a bearing started going out finally. I called Grizzly and held the Phone buy the Table saw and they said yep, sounds correct. They told me the part number bearing to buy at the local motion industries store for a few bucks. It was an easy fix. I have thousands of hours on this tablesaw cutting lots of 2 1/2” thick Beech and Oak into strips for making curved cabinets. So these have been long hard hours on this baby. I have lots of other Grizzly equipment too that has worked well over all these years.

I have since sold some of my equipment (old 8” Boyce Crane Jointer and a Parks Planer) and moved across the country. My new Grizzly G0453ZW Planer will be here Friday. And then I will order a new Grizzly G0490XW Jointer next month when they come in stock again. I called Grizzly and they said to wait a few weeks to order it as it may be going on sale for Christmas after November 1st. They did not know what models were going on sale – a couple of Jointers were – so why not wait a few weeks.

View BorkBob's profile

BorkBob

127 posts in 3085 days


#29 posted 10-26-2016 01:46 AM

I’m out “yonder ways” as my wife would say. South of Bethel. I have a Griz 1023SL, a Yorkcraft 8” jointer and a Woodtek 15” planer. You are welcome to come out any time to “play”. Bring wood!!!

-- Please Pray for Our Troops / Semper Fi / Bob Ross / www.theborkstore.com

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