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View Derrick's profile

220v options in my garage?

by Derrick
posted 09-06-2016 03:49 PM


45 replies so far

View Robert's profile

Robert

3368 posts in 1840 days


#1 posted 09-06-2016 04:16 PM

Any machine that big needs to be on a dedicated circuit. Depends on FLA but you’re probably looking at 30A breaker and #10wire.

I’m not an electrician but I think you could run the planer off the dryer just build an extension cord.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3324 posts in 1747 days


#2 posted 09-06-2016 04:21 PM

You’ve got to add at least one 220v outlet for the planer anyway and since you already have 50A breaker that should make it relatively easy to add. While you are at it I would add 2 220v outlets so that you can later add a dust collector. 2 outlets would make it more flexible where you put your 2 current 220v capable tools as well. And while the electrician is there, you might as well have him put in some extra 120v outlets too. If it fits the budget , add another breaker for the extra 120v outlets around your shop and have him use a 30amp breaker and the appropriate gauge wire and at least 20 amp receptacles. You can never have too many 120v outlets in a shop.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2253 days


#3 posted 09-06-2016 04:21 PM

I use 80% hand tools, however we just upgraded our entire electrical panel because it was outdated, no breaker space, unsafe. Had the electrician install 1 220 outlet for my bandsaw (I was using the dryer outlet, which was kind of a PITA), which is the only machine that needs that large of a plug. Also had him install two 120 outlets for other stuff.

So if I’m not a electricity hog in my garage and needed three more outlets, I’d say you need to add some plugs.

I defer to electrical experts about how best to do that. I can add an outlet to an additional circuit, but when it comes to adding a new circuit to the panel, I’m gonna pay a pro.

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UpstateNYdude

927 posts in 2342 days


#4 posted 09-06-2016 05:15 PM

It depends what is the make and model of the planer you just bought? Most 5HP motors require a 30A service but if the running load is only 15A then a 20A breaker can be used. You cannot use the 50A breaker for this or the wire run for it, you run a massive risk of starting a fire or killing the machine if it did have a sudden surge for whatever reason.

If it only needs a 220V 20A breaker you can get a double pole breaker to fill that slot where the 50A was and run some new 12/2 AWG line (usually it’s yellow now in the big box stores) with a similar outlet and you’re in business. If it requires 30A can the breaker to the correct amperage and adjust the wire to 10/2 AWG (usually its orange now in the big box stores) with a similar outlet.

If you don’t know what you’re doing please call an electrician as that many amps can do some serious damage and kill you very easily.

-- Nick, “I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it.” – Vincent Van Gogh

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HerbC

1801 posts in 3219 days


#5 posted 09-06-2016 05:28 PM

The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring circuit from overload which can overheat and start a fire. It is not to protect the equipment connected to the circuit, that should have it’s own overload protection internal to the device. If the wiring for the 50 A circuit is available it could be used if it is properly sized and in good condition. If you’re going to run new wiring sized for the planer load then change the breaker to match.

Herb

-- Herb, Florida - Here's why I close most messages with "Be Careful!" http://lumberjocks.com/HerbC/blog/17090

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#6 posted 09-06-2016 05:31 PM


It depends what is the make and model of the planer you just bought? Most 5HP motors require a 30A service but if the running load is only 15A then a 20A breaker can be used. You cannot use the 50A breaker for this or the wire run for it, you run a massive risk of starting a fire or killing the machine if it did have a sudden surge for whatever reason.

If it only needs a 220V 20A breaker you can get a double pole breaker to fill that slot where the 50A was and run some new 12/2 AWG line (usually it s yellow now in the big box stores) with a similar outlet and you re in business. If it requires 30A can the breaker to the correct amperage and adjust the wire to 10/2 AWG (usually its orange now in the big box stores) with a similar outlet.

If you don t know what you re doing please call an electrician as that many amps can do some serious damage and kill you very easily.

- UpstateNYdude

It’s a Woodmaster w612.

Here is the tag from it. I’ll have to do some digging to find out more about the motor.

View Rentvent's profile

Rentvent

151 posts in 1208 days


#7 posted 09-06-2016 05:43 PM

The easy: Replace the 50A breaker with a 20 A breaker and run 12ga wire to a new outlet.

The better: Install a 50A subpanel to feed multiple 110 and 220 outlets

View teejk02's profile

teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#8 posted 09-06-2016 11:02 PM



The easy: Replace the 50A breaker with a 20 A breaker and run 12ga wire to a new outlet.

The better: Install a 50A subpanel to feed multiple 110 and 220 outlets

- Rentvent

No question on the sub-panel! Unless the OP is familiar with wiring it would be wise to hire a “sparky” on this one. He/she will be able to determine what size wire is coming from that 50a breaker which will determine the subpanel size. OP already knows about “load” and the fact rarely will 2 machines operate at the same time. EMT conduit is cheap!

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#9 posted 09-07-2016 02:14 AM

These are all great ideas. Thank you everyone!!
The 50a sub-panel sounds like the way to go. I just don’t know how easy of a time I’d have selling it to my wife.

I work with a lot of electricians, and I might be able to offset the cost of labor with beer. Otherwise, I should probably get some proper estimates.

A single 220v would be nice, but it seems like it might be wasted effort. I could just run an extension cord from the dryer until I get a sub-panel figured out. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.

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teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#10 posted 09-07-2016 12:12 PM



These are all great ideas. Thank you everyone!!
The 50a sub-panel sounds like the way to go. I just don t know how easy of a time I d have selling it to my wife.

I work with a lot of electricians, and I might be able to offset the cost of labor with beer. Otherwise, I should probably get some proper estimates.

A single 220v would be nice, but it seems like it might be wasted effort. I could just run an extension cord from the dryer until I get a sub-panel figured out. It s not ideal, but it s better than nothing.

- derrick3636

I can’t imagine the total cost would be more than $200. And your sparky may be willing to set the panel and leave the downstream wiring to you so he doesn’t have to wrestle with the dilemma of GFCI vs. standard outlets.

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#11 posted 09-07-2016 01:07 PM

It looks like this is exactly what I want to do: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDuOVe19C8M
He doesn’t wire up the individual outlets(in this video at least), but he does do the sub-panel. Our garage would be the same setup. The new panel would be going right next to the main panel.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3324 posts in 1747 days


#12 posted 09-07-2016 01:49 PM

You can probably limit the beer labor to installing the subpanel and do the rest of the work yourself. Actually, you probably just need him to connect the wire from the subpanel to the 50A breaker and inspect your work and do the bulk of the installation yourself since the video shows you how. Probably a 1 or 2 beer job max, though I would throw a burger on the grill too. Once the sub-panel is in, you can turn off the sub-panel with the 50A breaker, making it pretty easy to add circuits as needed yourself.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#13 posted 09-07-2016 02:10 PM

FWIW, When I wired my garage, I ended up installing a 125amp sub-panel and it has served well. HOWEVER, I have found that I truly need MORE breaker spots (read bigger amp box).

That said, IMO, go BIG on the sub-panel box. You will eventually find that you “need” for that unexpected new piece of equipment, lighting, more outlets, etc.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#14 posted 09-07-2016 02:51 PM



FWIW, When I wired my garage, I ended up installing a 125amp sub-panel and it has served well. HOWEVER, I have found that I truly need MORE breaker spots (read bigger amp box).

That said, IMO, go BIG on the sub-panel box. You will eventually find that you “need” for that unexpected new piece of equipment, lighting, more outlets, etc.

- HorizontalMike

Thank you for that picture and your response! That actually raises another question for me. I’m looking at parts pricing, and I’m seeing flush and surface mount breaker boxes. Yours looks to be all surface(am I mistaken?). Our main breaker panel is flush mounted. My ASSumption is that the sub would need to be flush mounted as well? Or would it be possible to transition from flush to a surface mount box, and then route everything through surface mounted conduit? I don’t know if this adds any ease to the job, but it would be an easier sell vs. ripping up our finished garage and running everything behind new Sheetrock.

I know I’m probably at the point where I should be talking to someone local regarding code compliance and whatnot. I’m just trying to get a general feel for what I’m looking at.

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Lazyman

3324 posts in 1747 days


#15 posted 09-07-2016 03:22 PM

Since your existing box is in the wall, you are probably going to have to cut into the wall anyway just to get the 50a wire from the main breaker to the sub-panel, unless you can somehow use the existing wire for the old hot tub. It might not be that much more difficult to go head and make a cutout for the sub panel and have it flush like the main panel as long as you don’t put it too far away. I am not an electrician but I am pretty sure that you can use conduit to surface mount both the 50 amp line as well as the 220 and 110 circuits that you add around your shop regardless of whether the sub-panel is flush or surface mounted, which would be a lot easier than cutting holes in the wall board and drilling holes in the studs. I think that most code also requires that you put steel plates behind the wall board on studs where you run the wire if it is not encased in conduit behind the wall.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#16 posted 09-07-2016 03:57 PM

Derrick,
My panel is indeed surface mounted since this is metal & perlon structure. I ran 2 ought (00) from the house to my garage with about 80ft of the 00. I could have gotten by with 3-Gauge but decided to err on the side of safety and use the largest wire the box could handle.

Since it appears that your main house panel (200amp) is also in the garage, 3-Gauge should fit the bill along with a 100amp breaker on the main box. It does not cost that much extra, since it will be a new install. Remember that if you are running the garage all from the sub-panel, you have to consider the maximum potential load/draw on that sub-panel. I would at least have a currently licensed sparky do the final hook-up. I did, just to keep myself out of trouble and up to code. Well worth it.

I used to be an electrician way back in the military, but now barely remember enough to keep myself out of trouble.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#17 posted 09-07-2016 08:10 PM

Well, I decided to look into my panel a bit more. What would be nice, is if I could install a sub-panel just to the left of the main panel. Basically on the other side of the stud. That would be the shortest distance I could imagine, and it would still be in a convenient location in our garage. There are knockouts on the sides of the main panel, and they butt right up to the stud. I’m sure there is some sort of regulation for running cable through a stud, but I’m just wondering if I’m way off base?

You can see the unused 50a that I’m talking about. Would that breaker be suitable to power the sub-panel?

It sound like I may as well install a flush mount sub panel. Can I still bring the cable to the surface and run it externally through conduit?

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far!

View teejk02's profile

teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#18 posted 09-07-2016 09:09 PM


Well, I decided to look into my panel a bit more. What would be nice, is if I could install a sub-panel just to the left of the main panel. Basically on the other side of the stud. That would be the shortest distance I could imagine, and it would still be in a convenient location in our garage. There are knockouts on the sides of the main panel, and they butt right up to the stud. I m sure there is some sort of regulation for running cable through a stud, but I m just wondering if I m way off base?

You can see the unused 50a that I m talking about. Would that breaker be suitable to power the sun-panel?

It sound like I may as well install a flush mount sub panel. Can I still bring the cable to the surface and run it externally through conduit?

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far!

- derrick3636

How old is your house???? And what is the brand of the panel/breakers? I’ve opened a few panels of just about every conceivable brand before but I don’t recognize this one. Looks like the “hots” coming off the old 50a breaker are “MIA” so depending on your service you might want to upgrade to a 100a subpanel (doubt you’ll ever need it though given what you already described). I added 100a subpanel in my shop when I built the house (the trencher was here for the well and was sitting idle anyway so we put him to work to trench water and electric lines to the shop before the driveway went in). So far I have put 2 240v circuits in the shop (4 slots), used 2 slots for a 3/4” emt conduit run around the shop (2 duplex outlets per box, left side odd one breaker, right side off another). Used another slot for a GFCI outlet next to the entrance door. Used one slot for 15a lighting. Used one 20a slot to give basic power lines to the “cold side” of the shop. So in total I have 9 slots used, 11 ready and waiting.

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Holbs

2196 posts in 2388 days


#19 posted 09-07-2016 09:17 PM

Mike..where was that chart when I put electrical in my garage? I like that poster :) going to download it.
Derrick..here is my blog here when I did all the electrical wiring in my garage. May or may not be informative:
http://lumberjocks.com/Holbs/blog/36080

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

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limelight

15 posts in 987 days


#20 posted 09-07-2016 09:18 PM

I recently added 220/240 to my garage shop. I installed a 60A breaker in my main, then ran 6/3 to a newly installed sub panel in my garage. For each of the garage circuits I ran 4 conductors of 10 gauge to each outlet. This allowed me to a) have the ability to have either 20A or 30A service per circuit as I see fit, and b) running a 4th neutral wire for each circuit allowed me to add 120v to each location.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#21 posted 09-07-2016 09:39 PM


Well, I decided to look into my panel a bit more. What would be nice, is if I could install a sub-panel just to the left of the main panel. Basically on the other side of the stud. That would be the shortest distance I could imagine, and it would still be in a convenient location in our garage. There are knockouts on the sides of the main panel, and they butt right up to the stud. I m sure there is some sort of regulation for running cable through a stud, but I m just wondering if I m way off base?

You can see the unused 50a that I m talking about. Would that breaker be suitable to power the sun-panel?

It sound like I may as well install a flush mount sub panel. Can I still bring the cable to the surface and run it externally through conduit?

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far!

- derrick3636
How old is your house???? And what is the brand of the panel/breakers? I ve opened a few panels of just about every conceivable brand before but I don t recognize this one. Looks like the “hots” coming off the old 50a breaker are “MIA” so depending on your service you might want to upgrade to a 100a subpanel (doubt you ll ever need it though given what you already described). I added 100a subpanel in my shop when I built the house (the trencher was here for the well and was sitting idle anyway so we put him to work to trench water and electric lines to the shop before the driveway went in). So far I have put 2 240v circuits in the shop (4 slots), used 2 slots for a 3/4” emt conduit run around the shop (2 duplex outlets per box, left side odd one breaker, right side off another). Used another slot for a GFCI outlet next to the entrance door. Used one slot for 15a lighting. Used one 20a slot to give basic power lines to the “cold side” of the shop. So in total I have 9 slots used, 11 ready and waiting.

- teejk02

The house was built in 1997. The panel is from Siemens: http://m.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-PL-Series-200-Amp-40-Space-40-Circuit-Main-Breaker-Indoor-Load-Center-P4040B1200CU/203027309?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CTHD%7CG%7C0%7CG-BASE-PLA-D27E-Electrical%7C&gclid=CJer_M-X_s4CFU1qfgodHt4LIg&gclsrc=aw.ds
I wasn’t here when they removed the hot tub, but it looks like they just removed the leads from the 50a, and the entire run all the way back to the tub itself. There’s an empty knockout in the bottom right hand corner of the panel that goes directly outside the skin of the house. I should probably fill that in…

Anyhow, I’m seeing “QP” type breakers in there. Does that help?

For my situation it would be awesome to have 2 220v outlets tied to maybe a 30a breaker, and then a handful of 120v outlets tied to a 20a. My garage is tiny, and it is just a place to store my tools. Everything is either mobile or in the process of becoming mobile. That means that it would be Mia benificial to have outlets close to the garage door, so when I bring everything outside, my outlets would be close by.

Am I way off base?

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teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#22 posted 09-07-2016 09:55 PM

looks like a “dup day”. posting to clear…

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#23 posted 09-07-2016 10:05 PM



Mike..where was that chart when I put electrical in my garage? I like that poster :) going to download it.
Derrick..here is my blog here when I did all the electrical wiring in my garage. May or may not be informative:
http://lumberjocks.com/Holbs/blog/36080

- Holbs


I will definitely read that tonight. Thank you for the link!

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3324 posts in 1747 days


#24 posted 09-07-2016 10:29 PM


Well, I decided to look into my panel a bit more. What would be nice, is if I could install a sub-panel just to the left of the main panel. Basically on the other side of the stud. That would be the shortest distance I could imagine, and it would still be in a convenient location in our garage. There are knockouts on the sides of the main panel, and they butt right up to the stud. I m sure there is some sort of regulation for running cable through a stud, but I m just wondering if I m way off base?

You can see the unused 50a that I m talking about. Would that breaker be suitable to power the sub-panel?

It sound like I may as well install a flush mount sub panel. Can I still bring the cable to the surface and run it externally through conduit?

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far!

- derrick3636

I am not an electrician (so consult one) but you should be able to use the 50a breaker you’ve got. Based upon Mike’s chart above, you’ll need a minimum of 6 ga wire to the sub-panel as long as you keep it under 20 feet or so. I can’t imagine that you will ever need more than 50 amps based upon your list of tools so 100a would be way overkill in my opinion. You would have to run 3 of them at the same time to get close to 50. As I understand it (and I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong), you can have 2 120v circuits off the sub-panel and have up to 50 amps on each (assuming appropriate gauge wire) as long as you have the 2 120v breakers on separate sides of the panel. 240v machines will pull the same amps from both sides so theoretically, you should be able to run your 5HP 15amp planer plus another 15amp 240V dust collector and still have up to another 20 amps to spare on each of 2 separate 120v circuits.

You may be able (allowed?) to drill through the stud up against the side of the main panel, but that may not be the easiest way to do it. It might be easier to go out the top or bottom of the main box as it appears they did with all of the other wires and then over to the top of the sub panel. Personally, I would not mount the sub-panel on the same stud as the main panel, even if it is allowed by code. A little extra space is always a good thing when you are trying to route heavy gauge wire. I would rather patch some extra holes in the wallboard than work in cramped space.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Rentvent's profile

Rentvent

151 posts in 1208 days


#25 posted 09-07-2016 10:33 PM

I hate working with sheetrock.

You could cut the sheetrock in the adjacent to accommodate the new subpanel. Inside the open square you can drill a hole through each stud on the left and right. Be careful when drilling through the stud that the main panel is on- there might be live wires underneath.

Cut a hole for an outlet in each of the three cavities. (one under main, one under sub, and one in the other side of sub). Be careful cutting sheetrock under main.

Pull all wire and use “old work” boxes.

No sheetrock to patch.

A couple other considerations:
Any 120V outlet in a garage MUST be GFCI or GFCI protected
If using conduit, you can NOT use romex – you have to use THHN wire
120v receptacles should be rated for 20A (see limelight’s picture above – the grey outlets labeled 120V) 20A receptacles cost more and are available in any color.
220V circuits should be dedicated to only one outlet each.
12GA wire is adequate for running 120V or 240V 20A circuits less than 50 feet.

View teejk02's profile

teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#26 posted 09-07-2016 10:42 PM


The house was built in 1997. The panel is from Siemens: http://m.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-PL-Series-200-Amp-40-Space-40-Circuit-Main-Breaker-Indoor-Load-Center-P4040B1200CU/203027309?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CTHD%7CG%7C0%7CG-BASE-PLA-D27E-Electrical%7C&gclid=CJer_M-X_s4CFU1qfgodHt4LIg&gclsrc=aw.ds
I wasn t here when they removed the hot tub, but it looks like they just removed the leads from the 50a, and the entire run all the way back to the tub itself. There s an empty knockout in the bottom right hand corner of the panel that goes directly outside the skin of the house. I should probably fill that in…

Anyhow, I m seeing “QP” type breakers in there. Does that help?

For my situation it would be awesome to have 2 220v outlets tied to maybe a 30a breaker, and then a handful of 120v outlets tied to a 20a. My garage is tiny, and it is just a place to store my tools. Everything is either mobile or in the process of becoming mobile. That means that it would be Mia benificial to have outlets close to the garage door, so when I bring everything outside, my outlets would be close by.

Am I way off base?

- derrick3636

I’ve experienced Square D, Cutler Hammer and Federal Pacific and one other brand that escapes me…never Seimens (German I think)! Your mission now would be to find a breaker for that to feed the subpanel, then the sub-panel should be what you find currently available at your local store. Square D is usually available everywhere. We can start an argument here about whether you use their “pro-grade…QC???” or drop down to their “Home-Line”. I personally have had not problems with the latter and the breakers are much cheaper. “Code” might want separate circuits for each 240v circuit (4 slots vs. 2). With a small garage you might want 2 additional 120v circuits running 12ga on 20a circuits but one will probably suffice for now. I ran 3/4”emt conduit (maybe $5 for a 10’ stick, probably less). Plenty of room for a lot of 12 wire. If you use surface mount metal boxes and emt you don’t need a separate ground wire in the tube (properly installed the tube and boxes form a continuous ground but the outlets have to be tied to the boxes to ensure you maintain a continuous ground back to the panel.

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#27 posted 09-08-2016 12:58 AM

Most and/or all of the above appears to be good advice. That said, THAT is why I decided to OVER-DO my wire/box installation (even though I shoulda’ gone even larger). Don’t like weak links and always worry about NOT having enough capable wiring for the load.

Geez, if THIS is your build time and expense, then spend the extra and just do it! For such a small amount of ”extra” expense, you will never have to look back and lament on ”...coulda’, shoulda, woulda’...”

Just my opinion. All I ask is that you remember me in about 2-5yr from now… ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#28 posted 09-08-2016 01:06 AM



Mike..where was that chart when I put electrical in my garage? I like that poster :) going to download it.
Derrick..here is my blog here when I did all the electrical wiring in my garage. May or may not be informative:
http://lumberjocks.com/Holbs/blog/36080
- Holbs

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/0529s.jpg
Found it on a Google search, ”...what size of service wire…”

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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limelight

15 posts in 987 days


#29 posted 09-08-2016 01:25 AM

Just one more addition to the above (regarding the guidance to only use THHN wired in conduit – not Romex). You can usually buy spools of THHN at the big box stores but they usually come in 500’ and it adds up if you don’t need that much. You can also buy it by the foot but the cost per foot goes way up.

Also if you are pulling in conduit (some mention using EMT which stands for Electrical Metallic Tubing) then the following charts (linked in the URL below) comes in handy for how many THHN conductors you can pull for a given diameter.

For instance, you can pull a maximum of 10 conductors of 10 gauge THHN for 3/4” EMT. For Schedule 40 PVC (which I happened to use for my install) it is 9. I can say from experience, pulling up to the max gets tough if you have a lot of corners to go through.

http://sparkyjohn.com/pipefill/pipefill.pdf

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#30 posted 09-08-2016 12:58 PM


.....[snip].....
For instance, you can pull a maximum of 10 conductors of 10 gauge THHN for 3/4” EMT. For Schedule 40 PVC (which I happened to use for my install) it is 9. I can say from experience, pulling up to the max gets tough if you have a lot of corners to go through.
http://sparkyjohn.com/pipefill/pipefill.pdf
- limelight

ALSO, whether bending conduit or using PVC please remember:
  • EACH pull of wire, from one box to another, cannot have more than 180 degrees of bends TOTAL… Each pull…
  • And the closer you come to that 180 degree MAX, the harder it gets to pull.
  • Place junction boxes where you know that the total number of bends will exceed 180 degrees.
  • Don’t be tempted to pull wire before you join lengths of pipe/PVC and glue them together afterwards to bypass that 180 Degree max. You will never be able to replace/remove it in the future because it will act as if you had tied a knot in the wire run…

Good luck!

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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limelight

15 posts in 987 days


#31 posted 09-08-2016 01:05 PM

yes! also.. these pull corners also come in handy (available for PVC, EMT, etc..)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/item/202690632

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1920 days


#32 posted 09-08-2016 01:34 PM

If using conduit, you can NOT use romex – you have to use THHN wire

120v receptacles should be rated for 20A (see limelight s picture above – the grey outlets labeled 120V) 20A receptacles cost more and are available in any color.

220V circuits should be dedicated to only one outlet each.

12GA wire is adequate for running 120V or 240V 20A circuits less than 50 feet.

- Rentvent

Romex can be placed in conduit. NEC allows it even though it’s not a good practice for complete piped systems.

It’s advisable to have 120V 20A circuits, but to use actual 20A outlets is a waste of money. Hardly if any equipment use a NEMA 5-20 plug.

The NEC is silent, but State codes vary as to outlets on 240V branch circuits. Usually 20A or less can have multiple outlets on the same circuit. 30A and up should be a single dedicated outlet per circuit.

Run lengths using 12G wire for 20A circuits depends on actual loads. To say 50 feet is the limit is wrong. In one situation 50 feet may be the limit where a 100 feet can be okay in another.

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limelight

15 posts in 987 days


#33 posted 09-08-2016 01:48 PM

“The NEC is silent, but State codes vary as to outlets on 240V branch circuits. Usually 20A or less can have multiple outlets on the same circuit. 30A and up should be a single dedicated outlet per circuit.”

That makes sense given you can buy 240V 20A outlets the provide terminals for feed-through/branch circuits like this one: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=5462-W&section=42416&minisite=10251

If you have a 4th conductor, they also make these which provide 120 and 240v in one duplex 20A outlet:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=5031-W&section=42416&minisite=10251

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1920 days


#34 posted 09-08-2016 01:48 PM


  • EACH pull of wire, from one box to another, cannot have more than 180 degrees of bends TOTAL… Each pull…
  • And the closer you come to that 180 degree MAX, the harder it gets to pull.
  • Place junction boxes where you know that the total number of bends will exceed 180 degrees.
  • Don t be tempted to pull wire before you join lengths of pipe/PVC and glue them together afterwards to bypass that 180 Degree max. You will never be able to replace/remove it in the future because it will act as if you had tied a knot in the wire run…

Good luck!

- HorizontalMike

Although no more than 180 degrees of turns is good advice, the NEC rule is no more than 360 degrees of turns between pull points.

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#35 posted 09-08-2016 02:13 PM

I knew this was the best place to start! Just so everyone knows 50’ would be the absolute max run for any new outlet from the sub-panel. I can’t stress enough how tiny our garage is. On top of that, the actual space I have to work with in the garage is far less.

When working on something, the tools I’m using are in the driveway. I just need some outlets at the front of the garage so I don’t have to snake extension cords through the house.

I have to reread this thread, to let some more of the knowledge sink in. A lot of it makes sense, I just need to make sure I’m on the same page as everyone.

I can’t thank everyone enough.

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1920 days


#36 posted 09-08-2016 03:08 PM

If using extension cords out to the driveway don’t be cheap. Buy heavy duty, nothing less than 14G and use 50’ or less if possible. Those 100’ 16G cords are horrible for power tools.

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teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#37 posted 09-08-2016 03:45 PM


.....[snip].....
For instance, you can pull a maximum of 10 conductors of 10 gauge THHN for 3/4” EMT. For Schedule 40 PVC (which I happened to use for my install) it is 9. I can say from experience, pulling up to the max gets tough if you have a lot of corners to go through.
http://sparkyjohn.com/pipefill/pipefill.pdf
- limelight

ALSO, whether bending conduit or using PVC please remember:
  • EACH pull of wire, from one box to another, cannot have more than 180 degrees of bends TOTAL… Each pull…
  • And the closer you come to that 180 degree MAX, the harder it gets to pull.
  • Place junction boxes where you know that the total number of bends will exceed 180 degrees.
  • Don t be tempted to pull wire before you join lengths of pipe/PVC and glue them together afterwards to bypass that 180 Degree max. You will never be able to replace/remove it in the future because it will act as if you had tied a knot in the wire run…

Good luck!

- HorizontalMike

I’ll add that if using EMT, be sure to ream any cuts you make to remove any burrs. I simply use a large twist drill bit in a cordless drill.

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teejk02

501 posts in 1484 days


#38 posted 09-08-2016 03:46 PM



I knew this was the best place to start! Just so everyone knows 50 would be the absolute max run for any new outlet from the sub-panel. I can t stress enough how tiny our garage is. On top of that, the actual space I have to work with in the garage is far less.

When working on something, the tools I m using are in the driveway. I just need some outlets at the front of the garage so I don t have to snake extension cords through the house.

I have to reread this thread, to let some more of the knowledge sink in. A lot of it makes sense, I just need to make sure I m on the same page as everyone.

I can t thank everyone enough.

- derrick3636

Nothing “lights up” any forum like an electrical question.

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#39 posted 09-08-2016 07:13 PM


EACH pull of wire, from one box to another, cannot have more than 180 degrees of bends TOTAL… Each pull… And the closer you come to that 180 degree MAX, the harder it gets to pull. Place junction boxes where you know that the total number of bends will exceed 180 degrees. Don t be tempted to pull wire before you join lengths of pipe/PVC and glue them together afterwards to bypass that 180 Degree max. You will never be able to replace/remove it in the future because it will act as if you had tied a knot in the wire run…

Good luck!

- HorizontalMike

Although no more than 180 degrees of turns is good advice, the NEC rule is no more than 360 degrees of turns between pull points.

- WhyMe


-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3273 days


#40 posted 09-08-2016 09:04 PM

Geez… brain fart! My brain was thinking 360 and the signal to my fingers weren’t! OOPs!

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#41 posted 09-10-2016 03:18 PM

Does anyone see anything wrong with this transition from a flush mounted box to a surface mounted sub-panel?

I’m guessing the cleaner option would be to run the cable behind the sub-panel and enter the box through some sort of 90* elbow, through the back?

I don’t know what kind of junction box this is in the picture, but it would have to have some offset knockouts in order to make that transition.

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Rentvent

151 posts in 1208 days


#42 posted 09-10-2016 04:29 PM

it looks like a homemade junction box made out of plywood that’s countersunk in the drywall.

Fail.

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#43 posted 09-10-2016 04:34 PM



it looks like a homemade junction box made out of plywood that s countersunk in the drywall.

Fail.

- Rentvent

Oh wow. Missed that. I need to get my eyes checked.

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Rentvent

151 posts in 1208 days


#44 posted 09-10-2016 11:54 PM

I was weighing my options about surface-mount vs drywall and here’s some of my reasonings:

Hacking up and fixing drywall cost me about four hours time.
It’s in a garage and I don’t have to do a very good job on the repair
It’s in a garage and I don’t have to worry too much about all the drywall dust mess
If I were to try to sell the house tomorrow, my lousy drywall repair in the garage wouldn’t be a hinderance. It’s a garage
THHN wire is expensive – especially since I’d have to buy different colors.
I’m not experienced with conduit bending and it would take me more time than drywall – especially after a dozen trips to Lowes Depot for parts that electricians stock in their trucks.
All my power stuff is mostly on one side of the garage. I only needed to hack one wall.

I also pulled a building permit when I installed mine. On the rough-in the inspector made me add some more romex staples. It was only eight staples and he waited while I added them. On the final, all he did was open the subpanel and verify that I had separated the neutral from the ground (which I had already done).

I figured that pulling a permit was a much cheaper way of having my work inspected than hiring an electrician.

If I had to do over again, I should have just made one cut in the drywall about six inches above the floor and should have used a couple 2×4’s as a guide. Instead I stupidly free-handed cut a slot as you can see in the first picture.

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Derrick

94 posts in 1497 days


#45 posted 09-11-2016 04:06 AM



The easy: Replace the 50A breaker with a 20 A breaker and run 12ga wire to a new outlet.

The better: Install a 50A subpanel to feed multiple 110 and 220 outlets

- Rentvent

Ok,

I’m still looking at what everyone posted. I looked back at the pics I posted and noticed that on one side of my main panel(left) is the 50a breaker for the hot tub. On the opposite side it appears that there is an unused 15a breaker. In the picture, it doesn’t appear to be wired up. I’ll have to pop the cover off again to verify. If that is the case, couldn’t I just wire up a single 240v 20a breaker and outlet in place of the 50a, and then swap out that unused 15a for a 20a breaker, and then run the proper size wire to the proper 20a outlet? Or maybe a couple 20a 120v outlets? Its not the best option, but it gets me up and running quicker.

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