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View ScottRoyle's profile

Bandsaw, tire shredding mystery.

by ScottRoyle
posted 08-29-2016 08:25 PM


27 replies so far

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12817 posts in 2776 days


#1 posted 08-29-2016 08:44 PM

Are your hearing any slap or ticking before the tire goes kaplooey? The glue is failing and quickly. Heat is the enemy of glue. Since you’ve tried 2 different glues, it would seem like something is putting extreme pressure on the tire causing heat build up quickly; and that would have to be the blade, I would think.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View splintergroup's profile

splintergroup

2697 posts in 1618 days


#2 posted 08-29-2016 08:50 PM

So you are saying that the tire basically is thrown off of the wheel?
What happens to the blade?
Is it only the drive wheel that fails?
Is the tire cut, then thrown or does it just come off in one piece?

One thing that could be happening is blade tension is too low, those factory built in gauges are usually incorrect and read low (very low).

Best bet is to tension the blade by ear/deflection measurement/tension gauge.

Another thing to look at is what the wheels do when you have it all set up and ready for a cut. Spin the wheel by hand and see if the blade starts to wander or if something is contacting the tire.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7388 posts in 2595 days


#3 posted 08-29-2016 08:58 PM

Most places recommend 3M 1300 adhesive. I’ve also seen people use epoxy as well as 3M 5200, but those are a beast to remove if you need to replace the tire again.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12817 posts in 2776 days


#4 posted 08-29-2016 09:40 PM

I used 3M 77 on mine, time will tell if it is good enough.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2285 posts in 2194 days


#5 posted 08-29-2016 10:48 PM

I had to retire a Laguna bandsaw.It took several attempts to get the tires to bond with the wheel I think it was epoxy.
But the saw ran like poop it threw the wheels way out of balance. Think I went thru three sets of tires plus glue.Very expensive lesson.
So I gave up and brought the wheels over to Dailey saw service in south gate.
There I met a friendly old timer that told me nicely in aloud voice you just can’t put tires on and Hope for the best.
They did a fine job of crowning and Turing the tires to run perfect with the center if the wheel.
The saw ran better then new.

Aj

-- Aj

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#6 posted 08-29-2016 11:19 PM



Are your hearing any slap or ticking before the tire goes kaplooey? The glue is failing and quickly. Heat is the enemy of glue. Since you ve tried 2 different glues, it would seem like something is putting extreme pressure on the tire causing heat build up quickly; and that would have to be the blade, I would think.

- Rick M.


Not hearing anything before the tire hits the fan. Only one board through the saw before it shreds wouldn’t be too much heat I would think.

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#7 posted 08-29-2016 11:21 PM



So you are saying that the tire basically is thrown off of the wheel?
What happens to the blade?
Is it only the drive wheel that fails?
Is the tire cut, then thrown or does it just come off in one piece?

One thing that could be happening is blade tension is too low, those factory built in gauges are usually incorrect and read low (very low).

Best bet is to tension the blade by ear/deflection measurement/tension gauge.

Another thing to look at is what the wheels do when you have it all set up and ready for a cut. Spin the wheel by hand and see if the blade starts to wander or if something is contacting the tire.

- splintergroup

Could be tension, will check. By the gauge on the saw, I dialed up 1/2” tension for the 3/8” blade, a little over 1” tension for the 1” blade thinking a little more = better than not enough….

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#8 posted 08-29-2016 11:23 PM



So you are saying that the tire basically is thrown off of the wheel?
What happens to the blade?
Is it only the drive wheel that fails?
Is the tire cut, then thrown or does it just come off in one piece?

One thing that could be happening is blade tension is too low, those factory built in gauges are usually incorrect and read low (very low).

Best bet is to tension the blade by ear/deflection measurement/tension gauge.

Another thing to look at is what the wheels do when you have it all set up and ready for a cut. Spin the wheel by hand and see if the blade starts to wander or if something is contacting the tire.

- splintergroup


Also, the tires were more-or-less shredded into relatively small pieces, not much left.

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#9 posted 08-29-2016 11:25 PM



I had to retire a Laguna bandsaw.It took several attempts to get the tires to bond with the wheel I think it was epoxy.
But the saw ran like poop it threw the wheels way out of balance. Think I went thru three sets of tires plus glue.Very expensive lesson.
So I gave up and brought the wheels over to Dailey saw service in south gate.
There I met a friendly old timer that told me nicely in aloud voice you just can t put tires on and Hope for the best.
They did a fine job of crowning and Turing the tires to run perfect with the center if the wheel.
The saw ran better then new.

Aj

- Aj2


Thanks AJ, do you mind if I ask what did the cost of the crowning/turning cost? Was it tough to take the wheels off of the band saw?

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2285 posts in 2194 days


#10 posted 08-29-2016 11:50 PM

I had to retire a Laguna bandsaw.It took several attempts to get the tires to bond with the wheel I think it was epoxy.
But the saw ran like poop it threw the wheels way out of balance. Think I went thru three sets of tires plus glue.Very expensive lesson.
So I gave up and brought the wheels over to Dailey saw service in south gate.
There I met a friendly old timer that told me nicely in aloud voice you just can t put tires on and Hope for the best.
They did a fine job of crowning and Turing the tires to run perfect with the center if the wheel.
The saw ran better then new.

Aj

- Aj2

Thanks AJ, do you mind if I ask what did the cost of the crowning/turning cost? Was it tough to take the wheels off of the band saw?

- ScottRoyle

Taking the wheels off isn’t that hard.
I remember Dailey saw offered two different tire options one was Vulcanizing or rubber glue on.I chose the rubber.
You’ll have to call them for a quote.I only remember 125 but that might have been per wheel.Its been too long.
Good luck.
http://dailysawservice.com/

Aj

-- Aj

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1058 days


#11 posted 08-30-2016 12:03 AM

Actually less tension is better then more as long as the blade tracks straight when cutting. BUT there are so many facts and opinions out there on that and how to set tension. I go by the 1/8” diffraction over 6”, and then adjust a titch either way as needed.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7388 posts in 2595 days


#12 posted 08-30-2016 12:14 AM

Thanks AJ, do you mind if I ask what did the cost of the crowning/turning cost? Was it tough to take the wheels off of the band saw?
- ScottRoyle

When you put the new tires on… did you crown them?!?

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#13 posted 08-30-2016 12:03 PM



Thanks AJ, do you mind if I ask what did the cost of the crowning/turning cost? Was it tough to take the wheels off of the band saw?
- ScottRoyle

When you put the new tires on… did you crown them?!?

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix


Did not crown the tires, there is a slight rise in the middle of each wheel on the saw, no evidence of needing to crown the tire in the owners manual. By crowning the tire, what do you mean?

Thanks for your help!

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1570 posts in 2126 days


#14 posted 08-30-2016 02:15 PM

If you can find a rubber company that does Vulcanizing, go that route. I had my bandsaw tires done back in 1983-4, and I haven’t had any problems since. .................. Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6110 posts in 1108 days


#15 posted 08-30-2016 03:58 PM

personally I do not think it is tires at all ….. look for other problems with saw …... ie: bearings ,guides ,all moving parts

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#16 posted 08-30-2016 04:31 PM



If you can find a rubber company that does Vulcanizing, go that route. I had my bandsaw tires done back in 1983-4, and I haven t had any problems since. .................. Jerry (in Tucson)

- Nubsnstubs


Not a bad thought, will consider.

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#17 posted 08-30-2016 04:37 PM



personally I do not think it is tires at all ….. look for other problems with saw …... ie: bearings ,guides ,all moving parts

- GR8HUNTER


Thanks, I checked after the first board that I put through the machine, everything SEEMED to be working well. The Laguna ceramic guides were not pinching but were close to the blade, the thrust guide was close to the back of the blade, not touching, neither wheel wobbles…. Bearings was one of my first thoughts though. Am I missing anything else to check??

View Crickett's profile

Crickett

137 posts in 1876 days


#18 posted 08-30-2016 04:42 PM

I don’t like the idea of using any adhesives to secure a tire. When I bought the carter urethane tires they made no mention of using any adhesives and that’s because they rely on a very tight friction fit, and the friction fit gets compounded when you tension down your blade. Question – whenyou take the tire off next time or when it fails on you again, run your fingers around the lips of the flywheels and feel for any burrs, also feel for burrs in the center of the wheels since they’re slightly crowned. This could cause your shredding effect.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12817 posts in 2776 days


#19 posted 08-30-2016 05:12 PM

If you try to troubleshoot the entire bandsaw at once there are too many variables so you have to start at the first symptom and move outward logically. The problem could end up being something like bearings or tension or whatever but start at the beginning. The tires are not a problem, they are a symptom (unless you are buying raggedy used tires and not telling us). The tires are a symptom, what connects to the tires—2 things: glue and blade. So one or both of those things are either the problem or the next symptom. If the tires are coming loose then the glue is failing. So either you are using the wrong glue or using it incorrectly. If the glue is not failing and the blade is the only other thing in contact with the tire then you need to troubleshoot the blade. So the blade is generating too much heat/friction or is twisting and cutting into the tire. If the blade is fine then the friction is from another source like wheel wobble. That could be caused by bearings but if they have deteriorated enough to destroy a tire in minutes then you would hear them grinding. Are the nuts tight that hold the wheels in place? Are they assembled correctly? Did the bandsaw run fine before you changed the tires? If yes, then you need to focus on everything you touched/changed. Might be a good idea to take it apart and reassemble.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5501 posts in 3639 days


#20 posted 08-30-2016 05:24 PM

I’m confused by your post. You are saying the tire is coming off the wheel, but you also say the tire is “shredding”; two different things. A tire that is glued to the wheel shouldn’t come off. A tire that is shredding, meaning it is coming apart can be caused by too much tension and/or improper tracking. Are you sure the wheels are running co-planer?

View Crickett's profile

Crickett

137 posts in 1876 days


#21 posted 08-30-2016 06:10 PM

Flywheels don’t have to be 100% co-planar to work perfectly (being close is helpful), and as I mentioned before, tires do not require glue. You mentioned how difficult it is to get them on in the first place (heating/stretching/soaking), so knowing that, it’s highly unlikely they’ll ever slip or walk over the lip once properly installed (the co-efficient of friction here is very high). Only the flywheel and blade touch the tire so either you have a burr somewhere, or maybe you’re using a blade with a skip tooth where each tooth rakes a different way and the one that’s raked inward towards the tire is little by little slicing a tiny kerf in the tire indicating the blade might be too far back from center. That tiny kerf along with the high tension is a recipe for disaster in a short period of time. Your Laguna has a site window and a brake so fire up the saw and watch the blade tracking. Once you hear/see anything out of the ordinary, hit the brake immediately and evaluate all moving parts.

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#22 posted 08-30-2016 07:05 PM

I got an email back from Laguna after talking to customer service. I’m pasting it in below. Seems very odd that they would have me cut the tire prior to putting it on, then using a strap to adhere it to the wheel. Does this appear to be sound advise???

“Hello here are some directions for bandsaw tire install:

The following is step by step instructions for tire installations on all bandsaws. Please call customer service at 800-332-4094 with any further questions. You will need the tire, glue and hardener, small mixing dish and a nylon hold down strap (ratchet style or equivalent). Laguna Tools supplies the tire, glue and hardener. 1. Remove old tire from the cast iron wheel. There is a light glue line between the cast iron and rubber. Use a flat head screwdriver to pry the rubber up. 2. Using lacquer thinner or equivalent, clean all old glue off of the cast iron wheel. Let it dry completely. Cut one end of the new tire at a 45’ angle. Lightly sand the side that will be glued to the rim and clean 3. Apply a thin and even coat around the cast iron wheel. The curing time on the glue is minimal and the tire will need to be placed on the wheel quickly. When the end of the tire meets the 45’ first cut, cut this end to match. 5. After the tire is set in place, wrap the nylon hold down strap around the outside of the tire and tighten it down. This creates an even amount of pressure around the wheel. Let the tire set for at least 8 hours. This will allow the glue to dry completely.”

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2285 posts in 2194 days


#23 posted 08-30-2016 09:19 PM

Sounds simple enough why don’t give it a try and hope for the best.:)

Aj

-- Aj

View distrbd's profile

distrbd

2252 posts in 2842 days


#24 posted 08-30-2016 09:40 PM



personally I do not think it is tires at all ….. look for other problems with saw …... ie: bearings ,guides ,all moving parts

- GR8HUNTER


That’s what I’m thinking as well.
ScottRoyle, does the bandsaw come with old style thrust bearings?
could it be something as simple as the thrust bearings set too far back and therefore (during a cut)the blade goes passed the center of the wheel far enough so the teeth would cut into the tire?

-- Ken from Ontario, Canada

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6110 posts in 1108 days


#25 posted 08-30-2016 11:00 PM

That s what I m thinking as well.
ScottRoyle, does the bandsaw come with old style thrust bearings?
could it be something as simple as the thrust bearings set too far back and therefore (during a cut)the blade goes passed the center of the wheel far enough so the teeth would cut into the tire?

- distrbd

yes if tire is being shredded the teeth of blade are defiantly making contact with tire …...I hardly think it is a glue/tire issue .....good luck to you

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#26 posted 08-30-2016 11:50 PM

Thank you all for your time and input! I’m going to spend some time troubleshooting my wheel situation and put another tire back on; will use many of your recommendations to evaluate the saw before i put more wood into it. I’ll closely look at..
Wheel alignment/co planar
Burrs on the wheels
Inspect the blade teeth
Blade tension (independent of the scale) 6” = 1/8” deflection
Verify no wheel wobble
Make sure guides and thrust bearings are dialed-in perfectly

Once I feel confident that I’ve eliminated these as problems, I’ll run the saw for a few minutes and stop to inspect how the tires look and check to feel if there is any heat buildup before going any further. Will report back to my LJ friends as a follow up to help educate our community. May take me a few days to accomplish.
Again thanks very much!

View ScottRoyle's profile

ScottRoyle

11 posts in 1037 days


#27 posted 09-19-2016 12:41 AM

Hello, again thanks for your input to help me troubleshoot this vexing problem!

I purchased another two tires, these from Laguna. The tech from Laguna was very helpful and emphasized using epoxy adhesives rather than what what I had been using (industrial strength rubber cement). Evidently, this is the secret sauce. I put the new tires on and used J.B. Weld epoxy to cement them on the wheels. I let the epoxy set over night and re-sawed a bunch of lumber the next day with no issues. Evidently adhesive selection is key. Although I had to heat the tires to make them pliable in order to wrestle them on the wheel, thinking that they almost would not need adhesive at all, they still needed an EPOXY adhesive to bond the tires to the wheel.

Lesson learned!

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