LumberJocks

All Replies on Keyed pulley, smooth shaft??

  • Advertise with us
View Derrick's profile

Keyed pulley, smooth shaft??

by Derrick
posted 08-29-2016 01:31 AM


38 replies so far

View DirtyMike's profile

DirtyMike

637 posts in 1324 days


#1 posted 08-29-2016 04:24 AM

I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1085 days


#2 posted 08-29-2016 04:35 AM

Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#3 posted 08-29-2016 01:49 PM


I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike


Thanks for the heads up on the bearings. I’ll get it pulled apart and see what I have.

I’ll also take a look at woodgears to see if there are examples of the keyway slots being cut.


Sounds like the wrong motor/bearings for a pulley and a belt drive. Silk purse out of a sows ear. Good luck, Cheaper/free is not always better. Live and learn.
Motor shafts where the key way slot would be are usually harden, I dont know about a threaded pool pump, if is it whould hard/expesive to have a key way slot cut into it.

- nightguy

Thanks for the advice. The motor might not be ideal, but I can’t be the first person to ever attempt something like this. If the cost of using what I have is going to be ridiculous, I’ll just cut my loss and move on. I’m sure I can throw the motor back on CL. If the fix is something similar to what DirtyMike described, I don’t see that as too big of a deal.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#4 posted 08-29-2016 03:49 PM

Here’s the motor. I took everything apart. I haven’t located numbers on the bearings yet, so I can upgrade, but I’ll keep looking. Everything looks to be in good shape.

View bobasaurus's profile

bobasaurus

3599 posts in 3606 days


#5 posted 08-29-2016 05:43 PM

I suppose you could grind a flat into the round portion of the shaft, then just use a standard set screw pulley (you can buy them online). Or try to find an adapter for the threaded section somehow.

-- Allen, Colorado (Instagram @bobasaurus_woodworking)

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

5784 posts in 2143 days


#6 posted 08-29-2016 08:16 PM

It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don’t go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7408 posts in 2621 days


#7 posted 08-29-2016 08:45 PM

What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it’s either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can’t remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Those motors are not reversible, so pay attention to how you mount it. A jointer running backwards isn’t going to do you much good :)

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#8 posted 08-29-2016 08:47 PM



I am going through the same thing, I picked up 5 3hp pool pump motors from my buddy. I only have 1 that has a shaft over 1/2 inch though. Be aware that pool pump motors are not meant to have a side load. I have seen where guys will replace them with side load rated bearings. I am considering cutting the threaded end off and keying it with an angle grinder. Matthias wandel and John heisz have done it this way for their homemade tools. If your bearing seats are cast into the impeller outshaft housing you have to trim it up to get the pulley closer to the bearing. post some pics and good luck

- DirtyMike

I found this on woodgears http://woodgears.ca/strip_sander/
Towards the bottom of the article he talks about grinding a keyway. Is that similar to what you’re talking about?

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#9 posted 08-29-2016 09:45 PM



It is very (very) unlikely you will need to upgrade the bearings on that motor to handle the radial load that a belt drive will subject them to. While the original design generated little radial force, manufacturers don t go out of their way to install smaller bearings until you start dealing with large motors, not consumer stuff. Grinding a flat on the side might not be ideal, but it will work and reliably for a long time if the pulley fits the shaft well.

- bigblockyeti


What BBYeti said ^^^^

I have an almost unlimited supply of those motors for free… My BIL has a pool service company, and like most pool service companies, they will replace a bad motor rather than attempt to fix it (faster, easier and larger profit). For 98% of them, it s either the bearings that have gone bad (causing the motor to squeal) or a bad start capacitor. They ship out the old motors by the pallet load as scrap metal, and I can rummage through them all I want to see if there is anything worth while to snag. Can t remember the last time I actually had to BUY a start capacitor :)

Point is, the bearings in those motors are standard 62xx series deep groove radial ball bearings. Exact same bearings in just about every other electric motor you will find on a typical wood working machine. They can certainly be used to power a jointer… but they are much longer than a more traditional motor, and as you have noticed, they have a threaded end to engage the impeller rather than a more common keyway/setscrew arrangement. While a keyway could be machined into the shaft, it would be cheaper and easier to just grind a flat.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Well, these are great answers. Thank you guys!!
I at least want to look into bearings just for knowledge. It would be nice to at least know what I have, if/when it comes time to replace.

Right now it looks like I have ball bearings on the pulley side of the shaft, and I’m not sure what kind of bearing it is on the opposite end. It’s not ball or tapered roller. It looks fixed, and the shaft just rotates inside of it. Not sure how to better describe it.

Looking at different articles, I swear I’ve seen those deep groove radial ball bearings on both sides of the shaft. Am I wrong in thinking that’s a thing? Is that something worth looking into?

Again. Thank everyone for all of the help!

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7408 posts in 2621 days


#10 posted 08-29-2016 09:55 PM

It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then – and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#11 posted 08-29-2016 10:31 PM



It is possible that it has a bronze sleeve bearing at the back end (end where the electric hooks up), but that is unusual as they need to be oiled every now and then – and just TRY to get a pool owner to go out every few months to put a couple of drops of oil in their motor! If it does, check for an oil fill hole somewhere on the end bell.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix


Maybe like this little guy right here?

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7408 posts in 2621 days


#12 posted 08-29-2016 10:39 PM

Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636

There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it’s a bugger to press out those things.

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1085 days


#13 posted 08-29-2016 10:41 PM



Here s the motor. I took everything apart. I haven t located numbers on the bearings yet, so I can upgrade, but I ll keep looking. Everything looks to be in good shape.

- derrick3636

In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#14 posted 08-29-2016 11:02 PM



Maybe like this little guy right here?
- derrick3636

There you go! Use a good non-detergent 20W oil (3-in-1 makes an electric motor specific oil that you can find in the borg). There should be (usually) some felt packing around the sleeve bearing that absorbs the oil and distributes it evenly over time. If you already have the motor open, it might not be a bad idea to pull the felt, clean it good in a solvent, and re-saturate before you re-assemble the motor. Those things are dirt magnets and get really nasty dirty over time, and the motor you have is pretty old.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Check the sleeve bearing and shaft for wear and damage… hopefully they are fine, as it s a bugger to press out those things.

- MrUnix

I’ll take a look at those better. Nothing looked damaged with my initial inspection.
So now that there’s a better idea as to what I have, is there any reason I shouldn’t use this motor? Of course I still need to get the pulley figured out, but there are a ton of resources out there for those.


In your 4th pic there is a dimple on the shaft, it might be a good spot to anchor a pulley with a cone head set screw if that spot works laterally to align with the cutter head pulley.

- nightguy

I noticed that. Ill look into that kind of set screw. Are you talking about using that dimple and a set screw along with grinding a flat spot on a different side of the shaft and using another flat bottom set screw?

The pulley that came with the jointer had 2 holes for set screws that are 90* apart. This pulley won’t work with the current motor, but if this is what you’re talking about I’ll have a better idea what to look for.

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1085 days


#15 posted 08-30-2016 12:16 AM

This one, look at the pick of Allen Safety St Screws, Conical would go in the dimple, Cup or flat on a key way or a flat spot on the shaft, click on the pic to inlarge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_screw

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#16 posted 09-21-2016 03:22 PM

!

Just a small update. I’m going to try the grinding a flat spot method first. The new pulley came in. I took a little off with a file first. I figured a lot could go wrong in a short amount of time with an angle grinder, so I opted for the slower approach.

The pulley fits snug, but that’s just me testing it by hand. Hopefully I can mount it, wire up a switch, and run it in the jointer by this weekend.

View rick1955's profile

rick1955

264 posts in 1853 days


#17 posted 09-26-2016 03:53 PM

Split tapered bore bushing type pulleys don’t need a key way. That’s the solution you want.

-- Working smarter with less tools is a true crafts person...

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#18 posted 09-26-2016 10:39 PM

How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#19 posted 09-27-2016 03:34 AM



Split tapered bore bushing type pulleys don t need a key way. That s the solution you want.

- rick1955


I will have to google those to see what you’re talking about. Thank you for the recommendation.

How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe

I’m just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I’ll just keep it the same for now.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12845 posts in 2802 days


#20 posted 09-27-2016 05:11 AM

What am I missing? The shaft has a dimple for a grub screw. The pulley has spot for a grub screw. Why are you grinding the shaft?

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#21 posted 09-27-2016 01:17 PM


What am I missing? The shaft has a dimple for a grub screw. The pulley has spot for a grub screw. Why are you grinding the shaft?

- Rick M.

You’re not missing anything. Another member mentioned the same thing. I was basing my original question off of which type of set scree that came with the pulley. At the time, I wasn’t aware those types of set screws existed. I just saw the one I had with a flat bottom, and was worried about how well it would stop the pulley from spinning on the shaft. I should’ve paid better attention.

Turns out that it wasn’t that big of a deal. I filed a flat spot on the shaft, and the pulley went on just fine. I was able to wire up the switch and motor yesterday, and spin the cutterhead for the first time. Once I got the tensioner figured out, everything ran smoothly. Now I just have to learn how to install/set the knives, so I can give it a real test.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#22 posted 09-27-2016 02:13 PM



How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe

I m just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I ll just keep it the same for now.

- derrick3636

I’m surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#23 posted 09-27-2016 03:03 PM


How many cuts per minute are you sizing the pulley for?

- WhyMe

I m just keeping it at what it was when I received it. The jointer came with a 2.55in pulley on the motor and the cutterhead. The motor itself is 3450rpm. I ll just keep it the same for now.

- derrick3636

I m surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.

- WhyMe

It is a 3 blade. You know what. Let me double check the sizes. I’ll size them up again here in a bit.

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#24 posted 09-27-2016 05:43 PM


I m surprised the original setup has the same size pulley on both the motor and cutter. That will give you about 10,350 CPM with a 3450 RPM motor. I think 13,000 to 14,000 CPM will produce a cleaner cut. I assume the cutter is 3 blade.

- WhyMe

Well it does appear that another(thankfully inexpensive) mistake was made on my part. The pulleys are the same size. The manual doesn’t say much, but there are different part numbers for the separate pulleys.

I’m guessing the original owner gave me a pulley off of something else when I picked up the jointer. He gave me a couple bags of parts along with the jointer. I think he just found stuff laying around his shop. If that’s the case, no harm no foul.

So it appears in in the market for a larger drive pulley. I know there is some math involved on this one. If the driven pulley is 2.55in, how much larger of a drive pulley should I be looking for?

Surplus Center lists: 2.75, 2.95, 3.15, 3.35, 3.55, and 3.95 as the next sizes up on a 5/8 shaft. Will any of those get me to that 13k to 14k speed you’re talking about?

Just so I can gain some more knowledge, what is the math involved in determining that speed? That seems like a handy bit of info that’ll be useful in the future.

Thank you for catching my mistakes and for the help!!

Derrick

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#25 posted 09-27-2016 06:34 PM

3.35 dia / 2.55 dia = 1.314 factor X 3450 RPM = 4533 RPM X 3 Blades = 13,599 CPM

So cutter pulley is 2.55 and motor pulley will be 3.35.

3.55 motor pulley will give you 14,408 CPM.

Edit: I went back and looked at the link you posted for the jointer and the specs show 13,500 CPM

View Derrick's profile

Derrick

103 posts in 1561 days


#26 posted 09-27-2016 06:56 PM



3.35 dia / 2.55 dia = 1.314 factor X 3450 RPM = 4533 RPM X 3 Blades = 13,599 CPM

So cutter pulley is 2.55 and motor pulley will be 3.35.

3.55 motor pulley will give you 14,408 CPM.

Edit: I went back and looked at the link you posted for the jointer and the specs show 13,500 CPM

- WhyMe

But if the pulley he gave me wasn’t the original, that 13.5k wouldnt be achievable right? They both can’t be 2.55. I think I’ll just stick with the math you laid out, and buy the correct size pulley. They’re not expensive, and having a couple extra pullies laying around isn’t going to hurt anything.

Thanks again!!

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#27 posted 09-27-2016 07:05 PM



But if the pulley he gave me wasn t the original, that 13.5k wouldnt be achievable right? They both can t be 2.55. I think I ll just stick with the math you laid out, and buy the correct size pulley. They re not expensive, and having a couple extra pullies laying around isn t going to hurt anything.

Thanks again!!

- derrick3636

Correct, if both pulleys are the same size you’ll have the same cutter RPM as the motor. To get 13500 CPM you need to have a cutter RPM of 4500.

View ErichK's profile

ErichK

80 posts in 1086 days


#28 posted 09-27-2016 08:25 PM

Those pulleys will do:
Size: RPM
2.55 : 10350
2.75 : 11161.76471
2.95 : 11973.52941
3.15 : 12785.29412
3.35: 13597.05882
3.55: 14408.82353
3.95: 16032.35294

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7408 posts in 2621 days


#29 posted 09-27-2016 08:40 PM

What am I missing? The shaft has a dimple for a grub screw. The pulley has spot for a grub screw. Why are you grinding the shaft?
- Rick M.

In order to use the ‘dimple’, you would have to get really lucky and find a pulley that has its set screw in the exact right spot – otherwise the pulleys (motor/cutterhead) won’t line up properly. May or may not be a problem depending on how adjustable the cutterhead pulley is. Grinding a flat will allow the pulley to be set at the correct position without having to worry about it.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Easy to use jointer/planer CPM calculator can be found at the VM site here.

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

5784 posts in 2143 days


#30 posted 09-27-2016 09:33 PM

You can’t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you’re looking for, you need to know the pitch diameter of each pulley with the belt cross section you’re planning on using. Different belt cross sections can result in different pitch diameters on the same pulleys.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7408 posts in 2621 days


#31 posted 09-27-2016 09:48 PM

You can t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for,...
- bigblockyeti

Sure you can… we ain’t sending a rocket to Mars or anything here :) Realistically, any difference will be so minimal that it can be safely ignored – particularly on wood working machines.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#32 posted 09-27-2016 10:29 PM


You can t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for…..
- bigblockyeti

Tell that to all the websites that have pulley size calculators.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulley-diameters-speeds-d_1620.html

View jerryminer's profile

jerryminer

958 posts in 1864 days


#33 posted 09-27-2016 11:07 PM


You can t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for
- bigblockyeti

Tell that to all the websites that have pulley size calculators.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulley-diameters-speeds-d_1620.html

- WhyMe

OK. That’s exactly what the calculator you linked to does—it uses the pulley diameter to get the ratio!!

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1160 posts in 1983 days


#34 posted 09-27-2016 11:44 PM


You can’t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for
- bigblockyeti

Tell that to all the websites that have pulley size calculators.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulley-diameters-speeds-d_1620.html

- WhyMe

OK. That s exactly what the calculator you linked to does—it uses the pulley diameter to get the ratio!!

- jerryminer

I’m missing the point of your comment. Bigblockyeti said you can’t calculate it that way, not can.

View ErichK's profile

ErichK

80 posts in 1086 days


#35 posted 09-27-2016 11:53 PM


You can t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for
- bigblockyeti

Tell that to all the websites that have pulley size calculators.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulley-diameters-speeds-d_1620.html

- WhyMe

OK. That s exactly what the calculator you linked to does—it uses the pulley diameter to get the ratio!!

- jerryminer

I m missing the point of your comment. Bigblockyeti said you can t calculate it that way, not can.

- WhyMe

I think jerryminer didn’t realize that you and Yeti weren’t the same person, and that you were posting a counter-point.

View DirtyMike's profile

DirtyMike

637 posts in 1324 days


#36 posted 09-27-2016 11:57 PM

I am really lost now.

View jerryminer's profile

jerryminer

958 posts in 1864 days


#37 posted 09-28-2016 12:45 AM

I might be getting lost, too.

I see now (I think) that Whyme was indeed providing a counter-point to the claim that pulley diameter is not appropriate for calculating RPM ratios.

Can we agree that pulley diameter IS adequate—-or at least that the OP can safely use a calculator like the one in the link?

Sorry I muddied the water

-- Jerry, making sawdust professionally since 1976

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

5784 posts in 2143 days


#38 posted 09-28-2016 02:25 AM

I’ve had to correct more than a few folks that think because they found it on the internet it must be true. As Brad stated you can probably get close enough working with wood working machines for it not to matter. If close enough is good enough then forgo the technicalities and get whatever is closest. I make my living off precision, not close enough, that’s why I brought it up.

You can t just measure the pulleys to get the ratio you re looking for…..
- bigblockyeti

Tell that to all the websites that have pulley size calculators.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulley-diameters-speeds-d_1620.html

- WhyMe


-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com