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Tips for PSA Veneer over 4" PVC tube?

by jslanger
posted 08-11-2016 06:31 PM


19 replies so far

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#1 posted 08-11-2016 06:46 PM

I think I would just clean it real good. Seems like the PSA would stick better to the smooth surface of the PVC than a surface all roughed up.

If it were me I would use wood on wood veneer and contact cement. Then I would rough up the PVC

Another option would be to order them if you could find a size you can use.
http://www.tapeease.com/Wood%20Cylinders.htm

http://www.aitwood.com/StoreFront.Asp?WoodType=PAPER&CATID=10&Section=FIBERCYL&wDesc=Full%20Fiberboard%20Cylinders

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#2 posted 08-11-2016 06:47 PM

Thanks jbay.

I don’t have a ton of experience with veneer, but doesn’t the paper backed stuff bend better?

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#3 posted 08-11-2016 06:57 PM



Thanks jbay.

I don t have a ton of experience with veneer, but doesn t the paper backed stuff bend better?

- jslanger

The wood on wood veneer is a better product and is plenty thin enough to wrap a 4” tube. I’ve never bought it with a PSA though. I just measured a piece I have in the shop, .045

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#4 posted 08-11-2016 07:14 PM


The wood on wood veneer is a better product and is plenty thin enough to wrap a 4” tube. I ve never bought it with a PSA though. I just measured a piece I have in the shop, .045

- jbay

Cool, I’ll check it out.

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#5 posted 08-11-2016 07:35 PM

Check out Joe the woodworker site. Lots of good info for you.
http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/backed-veneer.htm

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#6 posted 08-11-2016 08:49 PM

That’s actually where I got my info regarding sanding and paper-backed working best for curves.

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#7 posted 08-11-2016 09:24 PM



That s actually where I got my info regarding sanding and paper-backed working best for curves.

- jslanger

They also recommend a smooth surface! I don’t think I would rough it up..

“What is a PSA backed veneer?
Pressure sensitive adhesive (PSA) veneer is a type of paperbacked veneer that is a simple and easy alternative for applying veneer without the need for a liquid adhesive. Utilizing 3M™ adhesives, PSA veneer provides a permanent bond to any smooth substrate that is dry and free of dust and contaminants. PSA-backed veneer is the perfect choice for cabinet refacing, hi-fi speaker building, automotive dashboards and much more. It can be cut and trimmed with ordinary tools, such as scissors or a razor knife.”

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Loren

10477 posts in 3976 days


#8 posted 08-11-2016 11:01 PM

PVC pipe can be painted to look a lot like wood,
by roughing it up and then rubbing acrylic paint
on with your fingers… it looks very convincing.

Not that there is anything wrong with veneering
but if you have some model paints you might
do a test.

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MrRon

5386 posts in 3571 days


#9 posted 08-12-2016 05:22 PM

I’m guessing you are filling the tubes with sand for weight and to eliminate any harmonic resonance. if that is the case, I would suggest filling the tubes with concrete instead. I think the tubes over time could bow or bend out of upright straight.

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#10 posted 08-12-2016 06:37 PM



I m guessing you are filling the tubes with sand for weight and to eliminate any harmonic resonance. if that is the case, I would suggest filling the tubes with concrete instead. I think the tubes over time could bow or bend out of upright straight.

- MrRon

Thanks, I’m still considering if it’s worth the trouble. There’s a slight argument that sand will dampen certain kinds of sound better than concrete. Also, there are three 4” tubes per stand anchored into 1/2” deep channels in 1.5” of Baltic Birch Plywood with threaded rods running end-to-end. I’ve used simpler versions for several years with thinner PVC and not had any issues. Have you experienced otherwise?

These are an evolution of http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/stubby_e.html in case anyone is interested.

-Jim

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clin

1020 posts in 1324 days


#11 posted 08-12-2016 08:13 PM

You don’t want the stands to transmit sound. Sand doesn’t transmit vibration well, while concrete does. So for that reason I would stick with sand.

As to the the PSA veneer, if the idea is to wrap it around and have it butt up against itself on the other side, I don’t think this will hold over time. Generally, I’m sure the veneer is intended to be attached flat. Adhesives are great with shear loads (the ones that are try to slide the veneer off). Adhesives are typically not good under tension. Due to being wrapped around it, the veneer is going to want to unwrap itself and the mating edge will be trying to pull up and away.

Now, maybe there is some way to remove the “memory” from the veneer. Something like steaming. Though I’m sure that would not go well with the PSA.

Since it would be very difficult to get a really tight seam where the veneer wraps around and meets itself, you might consider covering that with a thin strip of wood you can screw into the PVC. That would take the load off the PSA at the edges, and you don’t have to make perfect trimming cuts on the veneer. I assume like most speaker stands, these will be placed near a wall. At least close enough that people won’t be walking behind them and seeing the seam.

As to PSA surface prep, I think you would want to remove any sort of glaze to the finish. So I agree with roughing it up. But I’m talking 200 grit, not 40. And I agree with a good cleaning with alcohol or similar.

As with anything new, I’d build a test piece. Not the full length of the stand, but maybe 6”.

Something else to consider is using flexible plywood. It’s 1/4” (I think) and designed to wrap around curves, and I think can do 6” diameter without any problem. I do not know what veneers it is available in. And to some degree it will want to flatten out again too, so I don’t know that it solves anything, but just something to have a look at.

If you haven’t already, you might do a web search on veneering columns and see if you can find examples similar to what you are trying to do.

-- Clin

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Fred Hargis

5455 posts in 2821 days


#12 posted 08-12-2016 08:20 PM

If you want that veneer (PSA)_ to stick and never come off, coat the PVC first with some contact cement, let it tack up, and apply the veneer. The downside to this is that once the PSA touches the contact cement it sticks ( I mean really stick) so you have to be dead nuts from the get go. But I can guarantee you the veneer will be bonded for life to the PVC. You might want to try this on a piece of scrap (solvent based contact is fairly cheap, like $7/qt. around here) with some scrap veneer. I picked up this method from a cabinet re facing book and used it on several cabinets I redid.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#13 posted 08-12-2016 10:09 PM


As to the the PSA veneer, if the idea is to wrap it around and have it butt up against itself on the other side, I don t think this will hold over time. Generally, I m sure the veneer is intended to be attached flat. Adhesives are great with shear loads (the ones that are try to slide the veneer off). Adhesives are typically not good under tension. Due to being wrapped around it, the veneer is going to want to unwrap itself and the mating edge will be trying to pull up and away.

Now, maybe there is some way to remove the “memory” from the veneer. Something like steaming. Though I m sure that would not go well with the PSA.

Since it would be very difficult to get a really tight seam where the veneer wraps around and meets itself, you might consider covering that with a thin strip of wood you can screw into the PVC. That would take the load off the PSA at the edges, and you don t have to make perfect trimming cuts on the veneer. I assume like most speaker stands, these will be placed near a wall. At least close enough that people won t be walking behind them and seeing the seam.

As to PSA surface prep, I think you would want to remove any sort of glaze to the finish. So I agree with roughing it up. But I m talking 200 grit, not 40. And I agree with a good cleaning with alcohol or similar.

- clin

The PSA veneer is so thin that there won’t be enough pressure to unwrap itself. The adhesive is strong enough to hold it down. Also, not tough to get a good seam. Do it just like wall paper, overlap it, cut it, peel back and remove cut strip, press back. If worried, place a little glue down the edge before pressing it into place and wipe the excess that squeezes out with a wet rag.

If you go with contact cement, don’t use PSA, use the paperbacked veneer, or my choice would be the WOW veneer, and coat both sides with the contact cement. It will be a little tougher to do the seam the “wallpaper way”
I would overlap it, make my cut, then peel the center strip away by using lacquer thinner sparingly to release it.
May have to put a little more contact cement back on it to hold it down.

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#14 posted 08-13-2016 12:41 AM


Since it would be very difficult to get a really tight seam where the veneer wraps around and meets itself, you might consider covering that with a thin strip of wood you can screw into the PVC. That would take the load off the PSA at the edges, and you don t have to make perfect trimming cuts on the veneer. I assume like most speaker stands, these will be placed near a wall. At least close enough that people won t be walking behind them and seeing the seam.

This is what I was envisioning since 1) 4” PVC has a circumference of a little over 14” and at 34” long wrapping them completely results in a ton of waste from standard veneer sheets 2) I was planning on a wood strip in back to attach speaker cables to.

-Jim

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MrRon

5386 posts in 3571 days


#15 posted 08-13-2016 07:28 PM

You could use paper backed veneer and 3M “VHB” double sided transfer tape. One strip down the length of the tube; place the veneer half way on the tape; roll it around to the starting point, trim. That tape is super strong and is used in place of rivets in sheet metal. It is a bit expensive, but you can find it on Ebay at a good price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-468MP-VHB-Adhesive-Transfer-Tape-3-4-x-60-yards-New-/252144285768?hash=item3ab4f87848:g:y2oAAOSwAYtWHBC3.

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000

2859 posts in 1227 days


#16 posted 08-13-2016 08:35 PM

This is what I was envisioning since 1) 4” PVC has a circumference of a little over 14” and at 34” long wrapping them completely results in a ton of waste from standard veneer sheets 2) I was planning on a wood strip in back to attach speaker cables to.

- jslanger

If that’s the case then why even bother with the veneer. Why don’t you just glue strips of wood around the tube?
Or forget the PVC tube all together and make a 12 (or 80) sided solid wood tube.

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robscastle

5786 posts in 2532 days


#17 posted 08-13-2016 09:24 PM

Comment deleted after checking LJs profile

-- Regards Rob

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OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 2438 days


#18 posted 08-13-2016 10:14 PM

Now, maybe there is some way to remove the “memory” from the veneer. Something like steaming. Though I’m sure that would not go well with the PSA.

Veneer softener, normally used to flatten, can also be used to prebend sheets over forms.


4” PVC has a circumference of a little over 14” and at 34” long wrapping them completely results in a ton of waste from standard veneer sheets

Look around… Veneer sheets come in all kinds of size combinations. I’ll often choose sizes for parts like door panels with the final part size in mind.

Since you’re going to have a wood strip on the back for connectors, you have a defined back side and probably don’t need a perfect seam match where the sheet will meet itself. For this reason, you could use a slower drying glue, like you’d use in a vacuum press, and wrap the part in stretch wrap to apply pressure. Initially, you could apply your pre-curved sheet, hold it in place with some blue tape, and wrap the crap out of it with stretch wrap. Let it dry for an hour or two, then unwrap and be nice to it for the next 24, as the glue fully cures.

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jslanger

7 posts in 981 days


#19 posted 08-13-2016 10:23 PM


If that s the case then why even bother with the veneer. Why don t you just glue strips of wood around the tube?
Or forget the PVC tube all together and make a 12 (or 80) sided solid wood tube.

- jbay

These stands are two of 5 that I’m building. The first pair has black painted PVC and a ton of 3/4” strips spaced around with 1/4” gaps. Staining close to 100 strips for the pair was a logistical nightmare with my current workshop and weather conditions. Half a garage stall and 100 degrees plus rainy weather. For the next set, I want to try veneer. Whichever style I like best will become the front L-R and I’ll make a center stand to match.

I’m working with a small benchtop drill press, a router, and hand-saws.

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