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View nightguy's profile

Wood Movement

by nightguy
posted 08-04-2016 02:22 PM


35 replies so far

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1462 posts in 1783 days


#1 posted 08-04-2016 02:38 PM

Hi DKV

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6679 posts in 1271 days


#2 posted 08-04-2016 02:44 PM



Hi DKV

- AZWoody

DKV ?

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View Robert's profile

Robert

3569 posts in 2039 days


#3 posted 08-04-2016 02:48 PM

Hi DKV

Ya think???.....11 posts in 1 day.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View IHRedRules's profile

IHRedRules

116 posts in 2035 days


#4 posted 08-04-2016 03:53 PM

Try gluing a bread board end on to a wide piece and let me know how that works long term. 99.9% chance that something gives.

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1446 posts in 1375 days


#5 posted 08-04-2016 04:03 PM

I have seen the result of ignoring the effects of change in humidity far too many times on this set of forums and several others to dismiss the problem. Some 35 or 40 years ago, I experienced the problem myself before I learned better. I agree that the issue is often overblown but there are calculators which accurately predict changes in wood dimensions with changing humidity and they are fairly accurate. If the piece is varnished or painted, that simply slows down the reaction. It doesn’t prevent it. One can’t always keep a piece of furniture in a tightly controlled environment.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12945 posts in 2939 days


#6 posted 08-04-2016 04:12 PM

A plus trolling, you already have a couple fish on the line.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View rhett's profile

rhett

743 posts in 4226 days


#7 posted 08-04-2016 04:16 PM

Wood moves, FACT.

If expansion and contraction are destroying your projects, you can’t blame wood. You can only blame yourself, for not taking this fact into consideration.

-- Doubt kills more dreams than failure.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2561 posts in 2357 days


#8 posted 08-04-2016 04:22 PM

This is good news.Every wood worker should test what they read or hear.Its the only way to learn from experience.
Then when someone asks you to make a table or wood cabinet.They will have confidence when they build.
It’s way more enjoyable to have your own knowledge in your head then relying on Utube or a bunch strangers on a woodworking forum.

Aj

-- Aj

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

6013 posts in 3372 days


#9 posted 08-04-2016 05:08 PM

Moisture content in wood changes whether it has a finish applied or not. Lacquer for example will slow the movement of moisture in and out of the lumber, but does not stop it.

Numerous examples abound relating to cracked table tops when wood movement wasn’t accounted for.
It is most glaring when the end grain is bound, such as tops wrapped with trim or applied breadboard ends.

I’m not sure you’re going to change anyone’s mind on this topic.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1368 posts in 1479 days


#10 posted 08-05-2016 12:36 AM

nightguy,

Regarding your questions:

How many here have wooden topped work benches in a garage, or shop that is not environmentally controlled?

They are mounted tightly to the base, any issues?????

Back in the day in the late 1980s, I gave no thought to wood movement when I built my workbench. I glued up hard maple to form a top that is 1-1/2” thick and 28” wide x ~60” long. I wanted an elegant look so I edge banded the perimeter with red oak. The corners were joined with well-fitting half-blind dovetailed joints and the banding was glued to the maple perimeter. All exposed surfaces were received several coats of finish. The top was lagged to the base in nice tight fitting holes.

The workbench has been at home in two basement workshops and two garage workshops. Its current home is in a garage with occasion wintertime heat in Ohio. The basement workshops stayed comfortable without auxiliary heating or cooling. Neither basement was especially humid. The first garage workshop had no climate control in NW Arkansas.

It was not too long after completing the workbench, cannot remember how long, that I noticed the dovetailed joints opened up 1/16” at each corner and there is some checking in the field of the table, though not too bad. I attribute these defects to the maple top changing dimensions across its width.

Since that time I have provided the ability for solid wood tops to expand and contact on my various projects. Every now and again I hear a distinct pop which I attribute to a table top changing size and forcing movement within the fastening system I employed.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

7511 posts in 3926 days


#11 posted 08-05-2016 12:36 AM

Everyone knows wood expands and contracts with humidity and temperature.
Otherwise, why do wooden items breakdown when they are outside?

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#12 posted 08-05-2016 01:16 AM



nightguy,

Regarding your questions:

How many here have wooden topped work benches in a garage, or shop that is not environmentally controlled?

They are mounted tightly to the base, any issues?????

Back in the day in the late 1980s, I gave no thought to wood movement when I built my workbench. I glued up hard maple to form a top that is 1-1/2” thick and 28” wide x ~60” long. I wanted an elegant look so I edge banded the perimeter with red oak. The corners were joined with well-fitting half-blind dovetailed joints and the banding was glued to the maple perimeter. All exposed surfaces were received several coats of finish. The top was lagged to the base in nice tight fitting holes.

The workbench has been at home in two basement workshops and two garage workshops. Its current home is in a garage with occasion wintertime heat in Ohio. The basement workshops stayed comfortable without auxiliary heating or cooling. Neither basement was especially humid. The first garage workshop had no climate control in NW Arkansas.

It was not too long after completing the workbench, cannot remember how long, that I noticed the dovetailed joints opened up 1/16” at each corner and there is some checking in the field of the table, though not too bad. I attribute these defects to the maple top changing dimensions across its width.

Since that time I have provided the ability for solid wood tops to expand and contact on my various projects. Every now and again I hear a distinct pop which I attribute to a table top changing size and forcing movement within the fastening system I employed.

- JBrow

I guess I did not explain my original Thread enough, you are constraining it with your other wood border, just like who posted here about gluing bread board ends to a table. My point if you just face joint and seal it, in normal living conditions, no issues.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11521 posts in 1697 days


#13 posted 08-05-2016 02:15 AM

Wood only moves at night when no one’s watching. Has anyone ever actually seen it move? Me neither but when I leave on especially humid Summer mornings, my door’s always a little tighter than it is during the winter. Damned wood gremlins.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#14 posted 08-05-2016 06:43 AM


Wood only moves at night when no one s watching. Has anyone ever actually seen it move? Me neither but when I leave on especially humid Summer mornings, my door s always a little tighter than it is during the winter. Damned wood gremlins.

- HokieKen

Turn on our AC at night to 69, go to work and turn it up to 77, your door wont stick, and the place will still be cool when you come home, Delta Effect.
Same as the winter time, heat on when you come home, lower at night and while gone for work or dont you have AC?
Exterior doors if wood suffer through both sides of the environment

View Tony_S's profile

Tony_S

1043 posts in 3642 days


#15 posted 08-05-2016 10:53 AM



You all drive me nuts here with your wood movement! Table tops move ect. If using kilned dried lumber, seal the end grain where most moister comes in to affect wood width changes, live in a house with AC, and even open windows in the fall and spring, there is nothing to worry about. Movement specs is for unfinished wood, in an open environment, and they dont tell you there range of humidity it goes through.
I have never had a problem with table tops.
Store bought table tops are fasten tightly to the frames/skirts.
How many here have wooden topped work benches in a garage, or shop that is not environmentally controlled?
They are mounted tightly to the base, any issues?????
Get passed this wood movement. It is boring and redundant to hear it here to every Newbie building a table. It is useless info. Unless that is all you can say, and useless/inaccurate info. Even raw wood for a pick nick table out doors in the rain does not move that much as you Nay Sayers tend to Preach here.

- nightguy

You have no clue….

-- “Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” – Plato

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5569 posts in 2910 days


#16 posted 08-05-2016 12:49 PM

I agree, I laid out a board on my table saw last night and this morning I looked at it and it hadn’t moved a bit.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6679 posts in 1271 days


#17 posted 08-05-2016 02:41 PM



I agree, I laid out a board on my table saw last night and this morning I looked at it and it hadn t moved a bit.

- bondogaposis

LMAO @ bondogaposis

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

5234 posts in 4519 days


#18 posted 08-05-2016 03:43 PM

And besides all that crap, Nightguy can’t spell. Maybe his dictionary moved due to lack of use.
Bill

-- [email protected]

View wseand's profile

wseand

2796 posts in 3600 days


#19 posted 08-05-2016 11:01 PM

I’ve seen it move. It’s real. Some people say I’m crazy.
Lost my first wife over it.
Night dude, you better start believing or they will come for you too.

View MadMark's profile

MadMark

979 posts in 2012 days


#20 posted 08-05-2016 11:23 PM

Made a chessboard 1/4” thick as an inlay in my hot/humid Florida shop. Brought it to work (IT dry air) laid it flat and within minutes it was severely warping. Flipped it over and it self flattened out and started warping the other way. Stood it up on edge and it returned to flat. All in minutes.

This is also why you don’t lay lumber flat on concrete …

M

-- Madmark - [email protected] Wiretreefarm.com

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

7511 posts in 3926 days


#21 posted 08-06-2016 12:04 AM

Paper is wood, correct?

Cut a strip of newspaper 1”×2” and lay it in your palm and, unless you are cold blooded, it will curl.

Flip it over at it will curl the opposite direction.

You have just witnessed Web based magic!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5421 posts in 2868 days


#22 posted 08-06-2016 12:15 AM



Paper is wood, correct?

Cut a strip of newspaper 1”×2” and lay it in your palm and, unless you are cold blooded, it will curl.

Flip it over at it will curl the opposite direction.

You have just witnessed Web based magic!

- oldnovice

How long do I have to hold it in my hand before the magic begins?

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#23 posted 08-06-2016 01:55 AM



And besides all that crap, Nightguy can t spell. Maybe his dictionary moved due to lack of use.
Bill

- Bill White

Dont ever misspell a word here that I read!! Ya know what they say about throwing the first stone. Did you ever think the spell check here is not the greatest??

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

7511 posts in 3926 days


#24 posted 08-06-2016 03:05 AM

AlaskaGuy, up in Alaska it might take while.
If you want to speed up tell process, wash your hands in very warm water and blot them dry that way you have added heat and moisture.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#25 posted 08-06-2016 04:35 AM



Made a chessboard 1/4” thick as an inlay in my hot/humid Florida shop. Brought it to work (IT dry air) laid it flat and within minutes it was severely warping. Flipped it over and it self flattened out and started warping the other way. Stood it up on edge and it returned to flat. All in minutes.

This is also why you don t lay lumber flat on concrete …

M

- MadMark

Thats is part of my point, once it was inside, and I bet alot of exposed end grain.

View xmastree's profile

xmastree

47 posts in 1539 days


#26 posted 08-06-2016 04:36 AM

I wanted to start my own wood movement but my wife said no.

-- Every tree is a Chistmas tree with its gifts hidden inside.

View xmastree's profile

xmastree

47 posts in 1539 days


#27 posted 08-06-2016 04:40 AM

And by the way, composite wood moves too. In my den I installed one of those Pergo floors that you have to leave a gap around the perimeter so it can “float” – when I got home the next day it had floated into the dining room.
Wood moves.

-- Every tree is a Chistmas tree with its gifts hidden inside.

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#28 posted 08-06-2016 06:00 AM



And by the way, composite wood moves too. In my den I installed one of those Pergo floors that you have to leave a gap around the perimeter so it can “float” – when I got home the next day it had floated into the dining room.
Wood moves.

- xmastree

Thats is one of the keys, it is not wood, a composite, with a printed picture of wood on the top. Did you have it in the house for a few days to acclimatize like the instructions say b4 the install? Every 16ft an expansion joint is required, did you install one? You even do that with a real, raw hardwood floor material that is Kilned dried, 3-5 days in the house you are installing into b4 installing..

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#29 posted 08-06-2016 06:10 AM



Try gluing a bread board end on to a wide piece and let me know how that works long term. 99.9% chance that something gives.

- IHRedRules

But did you seal the end grain with a film finish of what you attached the bread board to first??? Bet not!!

View Tabletop's profile

Tabletop

139 posts in 1306 days


#30 posted 08-06-2016 07:16 AM

First off I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings and do not want to purposely offend any of you, so with that said…

Wood does move that is fact. The amount it moves depends upon a huge list of factors. If I were building picnic tables I probably wouldn’t consider it. However, I build high quality furniture at a premium price. Anything short of excellent doesn’t fly with my customers. I take Into account that wood does/will move and what is that going to look like. I wish I had a dollar for every raised panel door customers have brought me that were built and finished by someone that didn’t take into account wood movement. After a few seasons there is a paint or stain line where wood used to be covered inside a rabbit.

In 2005, I built my wife a huge table, 48” by 108”. It was made using white oak and a laquer finish. Finished measurements were dead on 48”x108”. 4 months later, in February, it was 47 13/16 and again in May it measured 48 1/8”. Length never changed. I know this because my oldest daughter did a science project and we plotted several wooden items.

So, if your not really concerned with the pursuit of perfection, then just do whatever you want.

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

6679 posts in 1271 days


#31 posted 08-06-2016 03:35 PM

think he is saying table walked from dining room to living room …....LMAO

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#32 posted 08-07-2016 01:36 AM


First off I don t want to hurt anyone s feelings and do not want to purposely offend any of you, so with that said…

Wood does move that is fact. The amount it moves depends upon a huge list of factors. If I were building picnic tables I probably wouldn t consider it. However, I build high quality furniture at a premium price. Anything short of excellent doesn t fly with my customers. I take Into account that wood does/will move and what is that going to look like. I wish I had a dollar for every raised panel door customers have brought me that were built and finished by someone that didn t take into account wood movement. After a few seasons there is a paint or stain line where wood used to be covered inside a rabbit.

In 2005, I built my wife a huge table, 48” by 108”. It was made using white oak and a laquer finish. Finished measurements were dead on 48”x108”. 4 months later, in February, it was 47 13/16 and again in May it measured 48 1/8”. Length never changed. I know this because my oldest daughter did a science project and we plotted several wooden items.

So, if your not really concerned with the pursuit of perfection, then just do whatever you want.

- Tabletop

So it moved over 48” a total 5/16, 5/64th per ft of width, which is way below to guide lines of raw wood posted on some raw wood movement. It moved from one extreme to the other 5/64” per foot, what environment was it in?
Solid hard wood floors are nailed/stabled to the sub floor, sealed only on the top side and no issues with expansion.
I am not saying wood does not move, just that you dont have to pay the attention to it that is extremely exhibited here in controlled environment. Ya if you live in Western FL with a Swamp Cooler then you do.

View Tabletop's profile

Tabletop

139 posts in 1306 days


#33 posted 08-07-2016 02:09 AM

Dining room, northeastern corner of Mississippi. I understand what your saying, wood doesn’t necessarily move 1” per foot or some other crazy amount but it still can’t be ignored. The movement in my example was about 1/4”, not a big deal when fastened correctly. This movement tends to be consistent horizontally. If you try to stop that 1/4” of movement, you will lose. Mother Nature will always win. If not allowed to move horizontally then it will move vertically. This causes warping, some may tolerate a table corner to be an 1/8” or so off, some may not. I tend to lean towards the “not”.

View nightguy's profile

nightguy

213 posts in 1221 days


#34 posted 08-07-2016 05:31 AM



Dining room, northeastern corner of Mississippi. I understand what your saying, wood doesn t necessarily move 1” per foot or some other crazy amount but it still can t be ignored. The movement in my example was about 1/4”, not a big deal when fastened correctly. This movement tends to be consistent horizontally. If you try to stop that 1/4” of movement, you will lose. Mother Nature will always win. If not allowed to move horizontally then it will move vertically. This causes warping, some may tolerate a table corner to be an 1/8” or so off, some may not. I tend to lean towards the “not”.

- Tabletop

I agree, down South lots of Humidity!!!

View robscastle's profile

robscastle

6545 posts in 2763 days


#35 posted 08-30-2016 12:23 PM

Just another one of the zero contributors we have to contend with

-- Regards Rob

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