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View Gerald Thompson's profile

Getting Away from Waterstones

by Gerald Thompson
posted 07-30-2016 01:41 PM


24 replies so far

View Andre's profile

Andre

2784 posts in 2310 days


#1 posted 07-30-2016 02:18 PM

Can you use PM-11 irons from Veritas? I have replaced all my Stanley irons, big disadvantage is not sharpening all the time!

-- Lifting one end of the plank.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3533 posts in 1985 days


#2 posted 07-30-2016 02:24 PM

Flatten ever few minutes? I use a 4/8k and I flatten about once every session, more if I’m flattening backs or doing 5 or more tools.

I would say something like 4000 just keep in mind the grit doesn’t equal between types of stones.

Perhaps a hands on sharpening class so someone could clique your technique?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#3 posted 07-30-2016 02:37 PM

I had a fellow show me about sharpening. I just don’t have the feel anymore. I even screw up with a jig. The realization hit me, I just don’t care about woodworking much anymore. It is too much for me. As an example, I have never been able to read plans. They all lock up into one item and I cannot separated them. My wife has to figure them out. I tried to put together table saw sled and started to build it backwards and ruined the whole thing. I have been trying this for 30 years and it dawned on me I have never felt any satisfaction after I made something. It seems to be all work for me.
I will keep a lot of my power tools and if my wife wants to make something I can mill the lumber and let her go from there.
Thanks for the replies.

-- Jerry

View WhoMe's profile

WhoMe

1568 posts in 3748 days


#4 posted 07-30-2016 02:54 PM

Jerry, Sorry to hear that about the woodworking.
As for getting away from water stones, I’m mixed on the diamond plates myself. Yes they stay flat but I just don’t see the same results I get with stones.

For me, I find that if I’m in any bit of a hurry sharpening, it ends up taking me longer than slowing down and concentrating on my technique. Even then, I’m not Ness as consistent as I want to be.

-- I'm not clumsy.. It's just the floor hates me, the tables and chairs are bullies, the wall gets in the way AAANNNDDD table saws BITE my fingers!!!.. - Mike -

View tshiker's profile

tshiker

62 posts in 1814 days


#5 posted 07-30-2016 05:39 PM

Jerry, Sorry you have so much trouble! I know it’s expensive, but if you are good with power tools maybe a machine like a Tormek would be better for you. With all the jigs it has it’s easy to get a sharp edge with it.

Just my opinion, others might disagree.

Tom.

View JBrow's profile

JBrow

1368 posts in 1424 days


#6 posted 07-30-2016 06:38 PM

Gerald Thompson,

Woodworking is kind of an odd avocation. I find it bit like golf, which I play infrequently. It is not clear to me why anyone does either; both are loaded with a lot of inward directed aggravation. As for woodworking and me, I suppose it is both creative and problem-solving drives inherent in my soul.

I am a little like you. Since I can rarely tell my left from my right, I often get things confused. I cannot begin to estimate the vast number of things both in the shop and out that I have had to do twice, messing up on the first try. There was a time when my mistakes made me upset. Since getting to know myself better, I just approach things realizing that I may have to re-do something and it is no big deal; I have the time and generally learn from my just made mistakes by the second or even third try.

Also, I find a completed project to be anti-climactic. After puzzling over the project plans, countless setups, dry fits, harrowing glue-ups, endless sanding and the headache of applying finish, I suppose the project ends up simply being a check mark on my list of things to do. However, I do get some joy from the reaction of my client (the wife) and the kind words of others; and the wife knows her challenge is to find my ever present mistake(s), which I have gotten pretty good at hiding.

Since it sounds like the hobby (I assume) has worn you down, cleaning up the shop and turning out the lights for a while may eventually give way the wood working itch that at one time you had to have had.

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

5227 posts in 4465 days


#7 posted 07-30-2016 07:29 PM

You’re gonna have to pick a method, and stay with it for success
There are SOOOOO many posts about the “best” way, and I go dumb and blind. Wanna sharpen to a zillion microns? There are some that do, but I just sharpen until the dumb old chisel or plane works. I have ceramics, oils, and diamonds. Add to that, there is a Makita water sharpener used for knives, etc. Pick one, and I can make somethin’ cut your danged finger nearly off. Whatcha wanna do?
Bill

-- [email protected]

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#8 posted 07-30-2016 08:59 PM

I am an RN. Many years ago I worked in ICU/CCU. One day I went to work and after report I looked at all of the cardiac monitors. I could not recognize one rhythm on the screens. Shortly I had to do a wedge pressure and cardiac out put on a patient. I could not remember how to even hook up the devices. I was a dramatic case of burn out. I worked one more day in the units before anyone would believe me. To this day I cannot read an EKG.
It seems that I have burnt out in woodworking. I know it is hard for me to go into the shop and do anything and I don’t get fired up about a project.
So I think I’ll take a long time off and if I still feel the same way I will sell off.

-- Jerry

View jwmalone's profile

jwmalone

769 posts in 1207 days


#9 posted 07-31-2016 01:24 AM

My grandfather had the same problem, but he had to have something to do, so he wound up spending lots of time down at the V.A. volunteering. He finally decided god just needed him to do something else. But I wouldn’t sell my stuff, just in case. I hope how ever it works out your happy with it.

-- "Boy you could get more work done it you quit flapping your pie hole" Grandpa

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

671 posts in 1253 days


#10 posted 07-31-2016 02:32 PM

Regarding sharpening, I use diamond plates. Sharpened all my planes yesterday. Whew!

As for woodworking, I’m not fully covered in wood chips every day. The desire to build something varies from time to time. After a big tough project I’m often a bit burnt out, but give it a short time and the desire to create is back. And even if I don’t feel the need to build big or fancy things, I’m always happy making wooden stools for kids or turning bowls or wooden tops.

Tuesday I begin on a wooden blanket chest, which will more likely be used as a toy chest. That and a small rocking chair will go to a favorite niece for her newest child.

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#11 posted 07-31-2016 08:06 PM

I gave sharpening a LV AL Jack blade another shot. I had sharpened it a few days ago and I could not get it to take shavings from end grain pine as I once had it do. It would on cherry though.
So I marched off to the grinder. I have the LV jig. I set the jig to 25d using their little angle devices. It seemed to me that if I moved the iron up to the wheel until it engaged it would be 25d. I made a lot of errors but got the thing sort of done. This was free hand mind you. I then used a jig and measured out 40cm which is supposed to be 25d. Things did not match up. The scratch marks were well behind the edge. Back to the grinder. Back to the jib and same story. I then thought I would us the little sliding clamp to stay square and see what happened.
The iron was tapered where it would reach the registration pin. I moved things around and used a small square to plum it up. All went to hell. Yes I got a hollow grind but something must have slipped as the blade is not square.
So, remembering I had another blade, I started in with the honing jig @ 25d and had at it. I started at 125 to 325 to 600 sandpaper to 800 water stone to 1000 sandpaper to 8000 Shapton. I never removed the iron from the jig. Everything was flat and checked to be so by a straight edge. I pulled the iron over my strop backwards a few times while still in the jig. It looked polished but did not seem a sharp as I recalled from the past.
I installed the iron in the plane and adjusted it so it was even all across and set to a whisper thickness. I placed a 6’’ wide 3/4’’ thick pine in my shooting board and got dust. As said earlier I once could get shavings. It was the same with cherry, dust.
So there I am. Once I could do it and now I have no idea.
I do know I am going to take all of my irons to a sharpening service and have then ground to 25d and to hell with hollow grinding and micro bevels. I can also learn to live with saw dust as this is just not worth it to me to get all wrapped around the axel wanting paper thin shavings.

-- Jerry

View Robert's profile

Robert

3533 posts in 1985 days


#12 posted 07-31-2016 10:52 PM

I don’t think its the stones, its most likely technique.

When you go to the 8000 stone, pull your iron back in the jig just a bit to increase the angle 1 or 2º and hone a microbevel.

This should solve your problem (assuming the back is dead flat).

You can also use a strop after final stone.

Good luck!

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View BurlyBob's profile

BurlyBob

6497 posts in 2770 days


#13 posted 07-31-2016 11:15 PM

Jerry, I totally understand your case of Burn out. Had that in Law Enforcement, 23 years top Sgt and hated everything about it. Eventually got a truck and car hauling trailer. I spent 2 years in primal scream therapy driving the freeways of the US delivering cars. It was the best thing for me, I actually found out that folks will wave at you with all five fingers. Hang in there buddy you’ll do just fine.

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#14 posted 08-01-2016 01:09 AM

rew, I did use a strop and kept it in the jig. I might give the MB a shot. The question is if the iron won’t cut as it is what good will a MB do? As I see it is still a repeat of the original bevel.
I have thought this over and over. I used to free hand it all. Not to be the big guy on the block but to not have to mess with a jig.
I may give it a shot tomorrow after I see my patients and get the shop A/C humming. I am in a pissed mood in a positive way. There has to be something I am not seeing. I know the damn grinder is not in my skill set and plan on trying free hand once more.
I got away from free hand as I had and old chisel that is a good and collectable one given to me. I made it look like a skew and that cooked the free hand for a while.
Thanks to all.

-- Jerry

View Clarkie's profile

Clarkie

489 posts in 2346 days


#15 posted 08-01-2016 02:48 AM

Have your tools sharpened by an expert and end the aggravation. As for not being interested in woodworking, maybe after having finely sharpened tools to work with you might feel better about that too.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3533 posts in 1985 days


#16 posted 08-01-2016 12:21 PM

Jerry, Jerry – chill!

I GAR – ON – TEE you the microbevel is your missing link. Once you do that on all your tools, you will be in glory land regarding sharpening.

Oops, wait a minute. Are you getting a burr before you go to the next grit?

If you put a microbevel (2º increase in angle) and it shaves hair and still won’t cut I would see if Burly Bob still has that car hauling trailer!!

Or tell them to beam you up :-D

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View mike02130's profile

mike02130

170 posts in 1177 days


#17 posted 08-01-2016 12:41 PM

How sharp is sharp? I’m a finish carpenter and have tried many techniques and stones over the years. I consider myself a good sharpener. I once worked in a shop with another guy who was a sharpening fiend(that’s fiend, not friend). He had all kinds of jigs and angle blocks and stones. We would do non scientific experiments chiseling and planing wood. His blades were honed, polished and stropped, while mine were finished on a green DMT stone. I ended up cutting a heck of a lot more wood than he did.

-- Google first, search forums second, ask questions later.

View b2rtch's profile

b2rtch

4892 posts in 3553 days


#18 posted 08-01-2016 01:28 PM

Watch Paul Sellers’ videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4yVgdVW7s

-- Bert

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#19 posted 08-03-2016 08:59 PM

Well I have given the LV LA jack plane iron another shot. All diamond plates are flat as are the water stones. These I checked with a LV straight edge.
I first took into the iron with a 120 diamond plate. I used a jig and measured back 40cm to get 25d. The iron was out of square and after about an hour it was still out of square just a hair. One small area on the left was low so I figured that would be an area I would not have to worry about leaving tracks. Next to a diamond plate that said coarse. It was finer than the 120. I then went to sandpaper, 325 on a flat plate. Then it was on to a 800 water stone that I rechecked for flatness across, sideways, and diagonal. Here is where I am flummoxed. The swarf line was in the middle of the stone. I kept at it and the line just became darker. I looked at the edge and the middle had a shiny spot. I do not know how this could be. Everything checked out flat including the plate the sand paper was adhered to.
I thought to hell with it. So I placed a thin plastic outdated insurance card on the stone to place the jib wheel on and went for a micro bevel. It was almost the same story only I had two small swarf trails this time.
The back of the iron is flat and polished just back of the edge. All is square, flat and so on.
Just over a year ago I could do all of this free hand and get the edges everyone wants and talks about.
The event that helped me loose my confidence was when I started to sharpen a chisel that is an old vintage and was given to me. I did this free hand and before I knew it it was skewed. It is a socket chisel and there is no way to put it in any jig I have. I squared it up on a grinder and have proceeded to ruin its looks but it is sharp.
I guess I go back to free hand and see what happens.

-- Jerry

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#20 posted 08-03-2016 09:45 PM

UPDATE!
I went free hand. I used an 8000 on a macro bevel of and unknown degree. Thanks to Bert and the Paul Sellers recommendation I stropped it hard and I mean hard on my leather with plenty of compound on it. The bevel was mirror like all the way across.
I installed the iron and plumbed it up and set it fine with the mouth set sorrta close. I place a piece of cherry in on the shooting board and took fines shavings off with no tear out.
It seems to me that a jig would be the answer. God made brains and hands before man made jigs. One just has to learn how to use them.
I am going to start sharpening lessons at “Bubbas Bait and Bridal Shop” on Tuesdays. The admission will be a six pack of Old Fort Schyler or a jar of Kim Chi.:)
Thanks to all.

-- Jerry

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1461 posts in 1728 days


#21 posted 08-03-2016 10:17 PM

Another thing you might want to look into is a worksharp 3000. It’s about as plug and play as you can get when it comes to sharpening. I’ve been running my chisels through one and haven’t had any issues. You can even add a microbevel with it.

View b2rtch's profile

b2rtch

4892 posts in 3553 days


#22 posted 08-04-2016 09:56 AM

Paul Sellers is the best.
I sharpen free hand too as did excellent craftsmen for the last 1000 years.
I use a jig only for heavy and initial sharpening like to re-new an heavily damaged blade.
Years ago I bought a worksharp 3000, I used it few times (no more than 4 or 5 times) I did not like. it I sold it. Free hand is the way to go.

-- Bert

View Robert's profile

Robert

3533 posts in 1985 days


#23 posted 08-04-2016 10:38 AM

Glad you got it sharp but boy that sounded like a lot of work. Hollow grinding would cut your work time immensely.

Paul Sellers is great, but I think his convex bevel technique increases the angle of the blade over time, which increases the wedge effect when chopping. Tendency to increase angle tends to happen in freehand sharpening anyway and occasionally take the blade back to refresh the hollow grind. BTW, on hollow grinding, I can and often do it freehand, but I will also use a jig for especially on an expensive tool.

All that stropping, stropping, stropping is totally unnecessary if you’ve sharpened to 8000, just a few strokes.

But sharpening is like love making. All different ways one common goal: satisfaction :-D

Gerald, I’m glad you discovered the value of the microbevel. Glad to see you’re back in the saddle.

Hope you’re not like me: “I know I’ve done it, but how did I do it?”

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2739 days


#24 posted 08-04-2016 11:13 AM

The hollow grinding looks to be the deal. I, however, have yet to do well with it. I have used up beater irons and I really freeze up when I use an expensive iron.
The LV jig does not serve me well as some irons are too short to register with the pin to keep the iron straight. I used a small square to align the LV LA jack iron but still had problems. I am not mechanically minded and I usually have to mess up a lot before I get the idea.
I think I will keep up with my present method even if it takes a long and boring journey to achieve the ends.
I still cannot figure out how using a honing jig did not lead to the edge I got that was not as sharp as the one I did free hand. I paid the utmost attention to all of the variables. The iron was sharp but I got saw dust shooting end grain cherry whereas I got curly shavings from doing free hand.
Not I am off to do my LN 4 1/2 then to my Steve Knight jointer. The SK jointer is another story. I had a fellow tell me I needed an real long jointer to do a table top. I got one alright. It is 30’’ long. It is made from Sapele and is a razee. The iron is super thick and hones razor sharp. I practiced on scrap and it will take whisper thin shavings. I have used it twice and now it sits. It is a great plane.

-- Jerry

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