All Replies on square?????

I use these two, and am very happy with them:

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-E2994-7-Inch-Definition/dp/B0090DGNKE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468371967&sr=8-1&keywords=Empire+square

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-E250-Professional-Combination/dp/B000ETUNEU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1468371967&sr=8-3&keywords=Empire+square

-- Joe | Spartanburg, SC | "To give anything less than your best is to sacrafice the gift." - Steve Prefontaine

PEC makes excellent tools and their combination squares are guaranteed to .001 over 6”. Taylor Tool Works has a lot of factory seconds on their eBay store. You really can’t beat the value.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

I second PEC blemished squares. Harry Epsteins has them at great prices: http://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/tool-brand/products-engineering.html

I bought my 4” double square from them and have been very pleased with the accuracy and quality. Glad to have a fine made in USA product.

-- https://instagram.com/well.executed/

Groz makes some nice fixed squares and straight edges.
ButThey are hard to find.The quality is up there with starret.
I bought mine at Rockler they carried them for a short time.
If you see one get it.

-- Aj

+1 to the PEC cosmetic seconds – mine are great.

-- Practice makes less sucky. (Bill, Minneapolis, MN)

http://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/tool-brand/products-engineering.html

Super cool people to do business with ^, they reduced my shipping cost on an item by half and I
found that to be very pleasant and their products are great.

I’ve heard great things about PEC seconds but I have to wonder why they have so many. They have more seconds than firsts. I bought a Blue Point 12” because it was listed as Made in USA but the listing was wrong, they are made in ???? probably Taiwan or China. Seller offered to take it back but I got it for about the same price as a PEC second and it is dead nutz square and I really like it. I also have an old Lufkin 6” that is dead nutz. I’ve never owned Empire and I’ve read good things about them but having looked at them in the store I don’t think they are quite the same level of quality as my Blue Point or Lufkin combos. If you’re going to splurge a bit as a woodworker, the combo square is a good place to do it. I’d like to pick up a 24” combination square someday.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

Silly question, but how do you guys validate “dead nutz” square? Seems like you’d have the chicken or the egg debate over and over. You have to have something square to find out if the other tool is square, but how do you know your first tool is square without something known square…

You could use the Pythagorean thing but your making pencil marks and measuring and if you’re looking at .001” error you can easily exceed that with a pencil and ruler, right?

Silly question, but how do you guys validate “dead nutz” square? Seems like you d have the chicken or the egg debate over and over. You have to have something square to find out if the other tool is square, but how do you know your first tool is square without something known square…

You could use the Pythagorean thing but your making pencil marks and measuring and if you re looking at .001” error you can easily exceed that with a pencil and ruler, right?

- ScottM

I have access to CMM and optical comparators so it’s pretty easy for me. You can register off a flat edge of a board and scribe a line then flip the square and scribe another line. If the 2 are parallel, then it’s square. You can pretty much check any 2 squares against each other too. If they are square to each other, then either they are square or they are both out the same amount in the same direction and the odds of that are pretty minuscule. Of course if they aren’t square, you won’t know which is true and which isn’t.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

I have access to CMM and optical comparators so it s pretty easy for me. You can register off a flat edge of a board and scribe a line then flip the square and scribe another line. If the 2 are parallel, then it s square. You can pretty much check any 2 squares against each other too. If they are square to each other, then either they are square or they are both out the same amount in the same direction and the odds of that are pretty minuscule. Of course if they aren’t square, you won t know which is true and which isn’t.

- HokieKen

Thanks, good info. I think I’d heard of the flipping the square and comparing parallel before but always forget about it. It’s the highlighted part that I still end up in an argument with myself on!!

If you go in person to buy your square, you can check it in the store using a pencil and the flat edge of a shelf. Just keep trying different ones until you get one that works. Also, combination squares can be trued up with a piece of sandpaper: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-square-a-combination-square/
I have and like one of the PEC combination squares but if you’re willing to fiddle you can tune up a cheaper one.

-- Jeremy, in the Acadian forests

If you go in person to buy your square, you can check it in the store using a pencil and the flat edge of a shelf. Just keep trying different ones until you get one that works. Also, combination squares can be trued up with a piece of sandpaper: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-square-a-combination-square/
I have and like one of the PEC combination squares but if you re willing to fiddle you can tune up a cheaper one.

- jdh122

Indeed, it’s not hard to true a cheap square (assuming the blade is straight). But, beware of the Aluminum ones – they won’t stay true long because of the wear between the head and the blade.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

I ve heard great things about PEC seconds but I have to wonder why they have so many.
- Rick M.

The voids/flaws that cause them to be designated as ‘seconds’ can be pretty minuscule. I have several pieces of cast cookware from Le Creuset and it’s the same story – you look over them very closely and you either find something and you say, “that’s it?” or you don’t find anything at all.

Frankly, I would imagine that selling the seconds is what allows them to price the firsts reasonably, too; if they scrapped/recast the seconds, they’d recoup some material, but they’d still have to account for the additional time and material handling with a higher price.

-- Practice makes less sucky. (Bill, Minneapolis, MN)

I think Igaging makes decent stuff.
Whats so aggravating is getting 1/2 way into a project and finding out your square isn’t square.

The idea of spending $100 on a square irks me, too, but after my last project, rather than fiddling around trying to correct the square, I bit the bullet and bought a Starrett combo.

Way I look at it, its about 2 times eating out with my wife…..

I haven’t done it, but they say you can make your own squares that can be very accurate.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

I think Igaging makes decent stuff.
Whats so aggravating is getting 1/2 way into a project and finding out your square isn t square.

The idea of spending $100 on a square irks me, too, but after my last project, rather than fiddling around trying to correct the square, I bit the bullet and bought a Starrett combo.

Way I look at it, its about 2 times eating out with my wife…..

I haven t done it, but they say you can make your own squares that can be very accurate.

- rwe2156

IMHO, you made the right call. I have 6,12 & 18 inch Starrett combos and 6 and 12 inch Starrett trys. So far, every one has been bulletproof. And the try-squares are 50 years old or better.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

@rwe2156 – I agree. When I found out my HD combo I had used for the beginning of all my woodworking was actually bowed, it was very frustrating.

HOWEVER, for me it’s way overkill to pay for a Starrett or Bridge City etc at 5-10x what I can get a USA-made PEC for. Throwing money at something to assume its precision, for my budget, is a frustrating solution, so I’m really glad to have the alternative.

-- https://instagram.com/well.executed/

I treated myself to a Starrett recently. Lots of money, but it’s hefty, repeatable square and the best part is how easy to read the markings are. Best part IMO. I’ve even dropped it with no I’ll effects, though I did make myself sick when it happened.

Another tip…go buy one of those Wixey digital angle gauges. Easy way to check square, and you will use it for a million other things. It’s only about 35 bucks.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

The idea of spending $100 on a square irks me, too, but after my last project, rather than fiddling around trying to correct the square, I bit the bullet and bought a Starrett combo.

Way I look at it, its about 2 times eating out with my wife…..

I haven t done it, but they say you can make your own squares that can be very accurate.

- rwe2156

If I had just spent the money on a good quality square to start with rather than messing around with “cheaper” alternatives I could of bought 2-3 of the better quality ones. The problem I had with most cheaper squares is that even if I can get them square they don’t stay that way long term. I have a drawer of cheap combo squares that all have one issue or another.

The PEC is only $60 for the rule + 3 heads.

$30 for the usual combo part.

That’s about 2X the cost of an Empire Tru Blue but you’re getting an American made quality tool and you won’t have to tear open the retail package to test it. :)

There is also a used Blue Point with 3 heads for $50. Made in China but they are high quality, I have one.

Here is a vintage Lufkin in very nice condition. 3 heads, $30

Lufkin sold some very high quality tools once upon a time. The Lufkin calipers I have are 2nd to none. My Lufkin combo square is high quality but a little lighterweight than my BP square, that’s not necessarily bad.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

Hey guys thanks for the info, but I found several web sites that explain hoy to fix an out of square combination square its really easy kind of like tuning a plane, remove the blade, down in the track the blade rides in are two raised ridges on either end depending on which way its out you can GENTLY file one down keep checking for true until its totally square that’s what I’ve been doing this morning worked great, No idea you could do that until stared searching may have already been covered on LJ but I’m new and I missed it. Now you still don’t have a starrett but it will do until I can afford one or most likely a blemished pec like several ppl have mentioned thanks for the info guys.

-- "Boy you could get more work done it you quit flapping your pie hole" Grandpa

Starrett’s show up on ebay a lot. I got mine, with the regular and protractor head pretty cheap, $40.

Starrett s show up on ebay a lot. I got mine, with the regular and protractor head pretty cheap, $40.

- brtech

And unless it’s been abused, a vintage Starrett is likely to be dead square. If it’s not, a 1-time tune up will likely last a lifetime.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

A quality combo square is one of those tools I wish I’d bought sooner.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

All shops should have one good square that is only used to check the other squares to.Or to check that your blades or fences are still holding 90.
It should not be left out anywhere it come out and goes back. Let’s just call it the master square.Its our reference square.
Sometimes we need to do very accurate work.
Mine is a starret no 61.

-- Aj

My step father gave me a master square. He had the engineer at work make it for me its shaped like a speed square 12 by 12 its really nice but I only use it like you said, keep it in my locked cabinet along with some of my grandfathers stuff, used it to make some nice fixed tri squares but ya just cant beat a good combo. First mortis and tennons I ever made I used a homemade jig like a preacher block, basically two popsicle sticks glued at right angles at proper depth (lol had to go trailer park) but it worked, ahh the good ole days.

-- "Boy you could get more work done it you quit flapping your pie hole" Grandpa

All shops should have one good square that is only used to check the other squares to.Or to check that your blades or fences are still holding 90.
It should not be left out anywhere it come out and goes back. Let s just call it the master square.Its our reference square.
Sometimes we need to do very accurate work.
Mine is a starret no 61.

- Aj2

My Starrett try-squares are just that. They go in an air-tight box with a bag of desiccant when not in use. I keep 2 to reference each other.

Nobody’s mentioned them but vintage Brown and Sharpe combo squares are on par with the Starretts and can be had for a bit less on E-bay. Same for Mitutoyo. IMHO though, the feel and balance of the Starretts and the readibility of the satin chrome blades make them worth the premium. My opinions were formed as a machinist though and I probably wouldn’t invest the same $ in squares if it was just for woodworking.

Hey guys thanks for the info, but I found several web sites that explain hoy to fix an out of square combination square its really easy kind of like tuning a plane, remove the blade, down in the track the blade rides in are two raised ridges on either end depending on which way its out you can GENTLY file one down keep checking for true until its totally square that s what I ve been doing this morning worked great, No idea you could do that until stared searching may have already been covered on LJ but I m new and I missed it. Now you still don t have a starrett but it will do until I can afford one or most likely a blemished pec like several ppl have mentioned thanks for the info guys.

- jwmalone

I think I said it previously but I just want to reiterate that Aluminum squares will not hold up over time due to wear. And no, anodizing it won’t eliminate the failure. Maybe prolong but not eliminate. So if the one you tuned is Aluminum, recheck it often. Even if it was anodized, you filed the anodize off when you adjusted it.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

I used to have a Craftsman and Johnson (I think it was) combination squares, tried tuning them up and they would hold for a little while but then be right back out of square again. I have Craftsman try squares that were spot on when I got them but they go in and out of square. My speed squares are square and stay square but the markings are gross and useless for anything besides rough carpentry. Also have a couple of Johnson framing squares and I can’t keep them square. I’ve pinged the corners and get them square and before long they are out again. I’m going to toss them and buy something better. Any recommendations on framing squares?

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

I used to have a Craftsman and Johnson (I think it was) combination squares, tried tuning them up and they would hold for a little while but then be right back out of square again. I have Craftsman try squares that were spot on when I got them but they go in and out of square. My speed squares are square and stay square but the markings are gross and useless for anything besides rough carpentry. Also have a couple of Johnson framing squares and I can t keep them square. I ve pinged the corners and get them square and before long they are out again. I m going to toss them and buy something better. Any recommendations on framing squares?

- Rick M.

Starrett makes ‘em but their in the “value” line. I’ve never owned one but their tempered steel so probably ok. I’d buy it on Amazon and send it back if it’s out. I only have 1 framing square and it’s and old craftsman that’s still true (or was a couple of years ago which is the last time I used it.

I would think tempering would prevent movement over time so a 1 piece square should stay true IF it’s true to begin with. Ideally it would be stamped, heat treated, then ground flat and square. But my guess would be that most are stamped, milled then heat treated which may cause some distortion. Pure speculation on my side though.

Let me know if you find a good framing square. It would be handy to have a 24 incher around but I wouldn’t use it enough to justify the cost of a 24” Starrett to go in the arsenal;-)

Wonder if anyone makes a 24” speed square? They seem to be highly reliable for squareness, even in the low-end price range.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

FWIW Rick, the 24×18 square in this eBay listing appears to be the same as mine.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

its stainless steel, I’m very aware of the problems with aluminum unfortunately. But if I have to tune it up again I can deal with it until I can upgrade, thanks again guys for the info. My thermometer said 104 so every thing I got is going to melt anyway lol.

-- "Boy you could get more work done it you quit flapping your pie hole" Grandpa

Afraid most of mine are older Stanleys. I do have one Sterritt around…somewhere..

Biggest thing I try to do, is to use the same square for the entire project. No mixing back and forth allowed. I start with one square, and hide the others. Same with a tape measure.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

Afraid most of mine are older Stanleys. I do have one Sterritt around…somewhere..

Biggest thing I try to do, is to use the same square for the entire project. No mixing back and forth allowed. I start with one square, and hide the others. Same with a tape measure.

- bandit571

Good advice Bandit. I do the same with tapes and folding rules. I must admit that I regularly use all 3 of my combo squares interchangably. But that’s never caused me trouble. Using multiple tapes in the same project was a hard-learned lesson.

I would (for myself) amend your advice to say unless your squares are known to be square and have precisely graduated (1/32 or 1/64) scales.

Another “tip” I use is that I use my calipers to set my combo square for anything I need to be very precise.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

ANYONE EVER DRILL A SMALL HOLE IN A CRAPY COMBO AND MAKE A MARKING GAUGE WITH IT? didn’t know caps lock was on didn’t mean to yell

-- "Boy you could get more work done it you quit flapping your pie hole" Grandpa

ANYONE EVER DRILL A SMALL HOLE IN A CRAPY COMBO AND MAKE A MARKING GAUGE WITH IT? didn t know caps lock was on didn t mean to yell

- jwmalone

I use the groove in the rule to hold my pencil in place at the end of the rule. Some people file a little notch there to hold the pencil better.

-- 👀 --

I used to have a Craftsman and Johnson (I think it was) combination squares, tried tuning them up and they would hold for a little while but then be right back out of square again. I have Craftsman try squares that were spot on when I got them but they go in and out of square. My speed squares are square and stay square but the markings are gross and useless for anything besides rough carpentry. Also have a couple of Johnson framing squares and I can t keep them square. I ve pinged the corners and get them square and before long they are out again. I m going to toss them and buy something better. Any recommendations on framing squares?

- Rick M.
The method I use to get a square framing square at the Borg.
Take 3 or 4 squares from the tool department over to the sheet goods.Find a stack of neatly stacked plywood or mdf. Use a corner of your stack that you choose and reference the squares to it.You will find one or two that fit.Then check the best one to the others in the rack.Soon you will weed out the bad ones.
Some sheet goods have perfect corners and make a good reference.
If none of the squares jive try a different corner.
You’ll know when you have a good square in your hands.
The last task is to get it home without dropping it. :)

-- Aj

Go Starett and bite the bullet for a 4 inch double square, a 12 inch adjustable square, and and nice long ruler that has gradation to the edge. Treat these items like you would treat your mother, with unwavering care and consideration.

How can you do anything right when you measuring, layout and design tools are junk?

Don’t compromise here, don’t even think about it!

I have a Starrett combination square that I use to test other squares in my arsenal. A Stanley square tests out-of-square when checked against the Starrett; so do the other squares I have, Having a small machine shop, I rework the squares until they test right-on. Those I use for all my work, keeping the Starrett safely stored away. To answer your question, you won’t know if a square is square or not unless you can check it against a good standard. About the best you can do is to place the head against a straight surface, scribe a line; flip the square over and scribe another line. The lines will be perfectly parallel if the square is indeed square. The only trouble with this is making sure the straight surface is indeed straight.

You can register off a flat edge of a board and scribe a line then flip the square and scribe another line. If the 2 are parallel, then it s square.

- HokieKen

Yes, but how do you know if the edge is indeed straight? Really the only way is to check it, is against a “certified” square reference. Also in response to another tip, a “Wixey” is not accurate enough. I believe it is only good for ± 1/2°. I know we are talking gnat’s hairs, but 1/2° in 12” is 7/64” out of square; .105” to be more precise.

Any recommendations on framing squares?
- Rick M.

A framing square is meant to be used as a carpenters tool. Carpentry doesn’t require “machinist’s” precision. Usually ±1/32” is close enough in carpentry. Starrett used to make a framing square, but they finally realized it’s accuracy could not be held in a construction environment; they get tossed around, dinged, dropped, stolen, etc. That said, I wouldn’t spend much on a framing square.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69569&cat=1,42936

^^ Any recommendations on framing squares?
- Rick M.

A little spendy:

Nice square Waho, you have one?

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

My framing square is square on the inside and outside but not inside edge to outside edge. I don’t mow the brand but I believe it’s from one of the big box stores. To check my squares I use the 3,4,5 rule of geometry.

You can register off a flat edge of a board and scribe a line then flip the square and scribe another line. If the 2 are parallel, then it s square.

- HokieKen

Yes, but how do you know if the edge is indeed straight? Really the only way is to check it, is against a “certified” square reference. Also in response to another tip, a “Wixey” is not accurate enough. I believe it is only good for ± 1/2°. I know we are talking gnat s hairs, but 1/2° in 12” is 7/64” out of square; .105” to be more precise.

- MrRon

Actually, the edge only needs to be flat/straight, not square. Just check with a straight edge and run it across the jointer if necessary. If you have a granite surface plate, paint some layout dye and scribe your lines lightly. Most plywood has straight edges when purchased in a pinch.

Wixey angle gauges are .1 degrees not .5 and are extremely handy to have around. However, I agree that still isn’t accurate enough to check a square.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

Nah, I don’t have a Chappell Square but was seriously considering getting one.

My framing square is at least older than I am…...I keep looking at them, while out on a rust hunt…...bad manners to stand there and check for square…...

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

I have an old square that’s an 1/8” thick at least and makes any other one

look wimpy.

Since you mentioned the Pythagorean method in your initial comment, I’d like to point out something that addresses the problem of very large squares, rather than small precision ones. Namely, the 3-4-5 rule works independently of the unit of measure. You can use inches, feet, yards, meters, or parsecs. I found this handy when I was laying out the rectangle for supporting posts for my big carport (didn’t use parsecs; it’s not that big).

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

Took a look at the Thales square. Really cool!

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

Took a look at the Thales square. Really cool!

- runswithscissors

Yep, super accurate + super simple = super cool! Still on my to-do list Rick.

Somebody got a good deal on a great set here. It was actually 12 and 18” blades (not 24” like title says) but whoever won got out for less than 1/2 of new price for a square that appears to be practically new. I bid on it but couldn’t justify enough to win since I already have 12 and 18” Starrett combos. But, these are the ones to watch for on E-bay. Not bargain basement prices, but top-shelf squares at mid-range prices.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA