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Bosch Going Up Against Sawstop

by todd4390
posted 03-16-2015 09:24 PM


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236 replies

236 replies so far

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OSU55

2772 posts in 3042 days


#1 posted 03-16-2015 09:28 PM



Too bad it s not someone like Powermatic.
- todd4390

??? What’s wrong with Bosch doing it?

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jmartel

9168 posts in 3202 days


#2 posted 03-16-2015 09:37 PM


Too bad it s not someone like Powermatic.
- todd4390

??? What s wrong with Bosch doing it?

- OSU55

Bosch doesn’t make cabinet saws.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

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MrUnix

8510 posts in 3251 days


#3 posted 03-16-2015 09:52 PM

Bosch is a member of the Power Tool Institute (PTI), which developed a safety design that is better and more efficient than SawStop years ago, and any member of PTI is free to implement it without royalty or other compensation. Unfortunately, the CPSC, PTI and Gass himself have stated that anyone who does will be taken to court over SawStops overly broad patents. It will be interesting to see how he reacts if they do indeed bring it to market.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Tennessee

2936 posts in 3567 days


#4 posted 03-16-2015 10:02 PM

I don’t think SawStop stands a chance if they choose to do a lawsuit. The technology Bosch is talking about is exactly what the airbag industry uses, and is in no way similar to clamping a moving object to stop. That would be more like the automatic braking systems that are starting to pop up in cars when the car detects an oncoming crash.

In this case, instead of sending an inflatable bag into your face in a few milliseconds, they are retracting a blade with the same technology. The SawStop technology seems to be totally different, save that the two only cross with the grounding effect of a finger touching the blade. In this case, that is fairly general and I would hope that Bosch becomes the second of what will surely become a multitude of saw manufacturers in the future who will have this finger saving technology. Maybe it will even be cheaper if they start to sell a line of table saws.

-- Tsunami Guitars and Custom Woodworking, Cleveland, TN

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Kazooman

1540 posts in 3005 days


#5 posted 03-16-2015 10:05 PM

That’s really interesting! I love my SawStop cabinet saw, but it is good to see some other manufacturers entering the field. Competition results in innovation and reduced prices for consumers. The SawStop system that destroys the brake and the blade is less than optimal, but good enough for me when housed in an otherwise high quality cabinet saw.

I am curious to see how the Bosch system works. The SawStop system uses the energy inherent in the rotating blade to drive the blade below the table while the aluminum brake block halts the rotation. Bosch seems to be using air bag technology to generate the energy that drives the blade down. I am eager to see just how this works to provide a stable depth setting for the saw blade in normal use and an easily replaceable safety component. Could be better than the SawStop method. Or not.

As a retired science guy who spent far too many hours working with the patent attorneys trying to craft the optimal patent applications to carve out our little slice of intellectual property, I wonder what the situation is regarding table saw brakes. I have no clue just where this stands, but at some point the concept of using the capacitive measurement to trigger a brake might have been patentable. Does SawStop have any intellectual property position that could hinder others?

Note: The other replies were posted while I was (slowly) typing. All I can say is don’t underestimate the ability of an expensive legal team to muck up this whole issue. I have no knowledge of the history of the technology behind table saw brakes, but I know from experience that the legal fog can throw a multitude of monkey wrenches in the best laid plans, even when you KNOW you are right.

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Kazooman

1540 posts in 3005 days


#6 posted 03-16-2015 10:18 PM


Hi Tsunami:

I just noticed your link to your website. I’ll have a deeper look after dinner. My “other” hobby is guitar electronics. Amps, effects, etc. Mostly restoration of vintage stuff. It is as addicting as trying to achieve that perfect fitting dovetail!

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Rayne

1319 posts in 2592 days


#7 posted 03-16-2015 10:21 PM

After reading the article, I can’t imagine a lawsuit even surfacing due to how different the two technology would be working with the only exception being the flesh / blood sensors. This really isn’t a brake system but more of a retraction system. You get to save the blade, flip the sensor and be back in business without spending a dime; at least until it happens again, then you’ll need a new sensor. Very intriguing. Competition at its finest.

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dawsonbob

3995 posts in 2808 days


#8 posted 03-16-2015 10:27 PM

Given the size of Bosch, and the technology they’re using, I can’t see any way that SawStop could prevail in a lawsuit.

Even if it seemed close to we outsiders, I think a judge would look at it as a public safety issue and see SawStop as trying to deny a safety feature to the public. As I understand it, the law frowns on monopolies.

-- Mistakes are what pave the road to perfection

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TheFridge

10863 posts in 2538 days


#9 posted 03-16-2015 10:59 PM

The first challenge is always the most important.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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Kazooman

1540 posts in 3005 days


#10 posted 03-16-2015 11:01 PM

All I can say is if I had to do it we would have patent claim(s) such as…....

(1) We claim a method whereby the triggering of a safety brake or other control mechanism is initiated by a measure of the capacitive difference in electrical potential created by the direct contact of human flesh or contact of human flesh through any conductive material with a machine tool component.

(2) the subset of claim #1 where the machine tool is a table saw.

(3) the subset of claim #2 where the contact of human flesh is through a finger.

(4) the subset of claim #3 where the safety brake is a sacrificial piece of aluminum that jams into the blade.

And on, and on, and on….

This is actually how most patent claims read. The big “generic” claim and then a host of dependent claims. Just where your eventual patent coverage ends up is the result of tons of litigation.

I sure don’t know what legal position SawStop has in this, but I am certain that they will be weighing in.

@Dawsonbob: Yes, there are many instances where the law frowns on monopolies, but Patent Law is one place where the law actually supports them. Patents provide the inventor the exclusive rights to utilize their invention for the limit of the patent term. This is a way to promote innovation by allowing someone who invests the time, effort, and money to develop a new technology to recover their investment (and hopefully much more).

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MrUnix

8510 posts in 3251 days


#11 posted 03-16-2015 11:23 PM

I sure don’t know what legal position SawStop has in this, but I am certain that they will be weighing in.

Steve Gass (owner of SawStop) was and is a patent attorney… ‘nuff said.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Redoak49

5179 posts in 3041 days


#12 posted 03-16-2015 11:24 PM

I am a Sawstop owner but hope that the Bosch technology works.

It will be interesting to see the actual statistics of how fast it works. I hope it is as good as the Sawstop.

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isotope

177 posts in 2677 days


#13 posted 03-16-2015 11:36 PM

The purpose of patents, at least from society’s point of view, is to encourage companies to spend time/money/resources to develop new inventions. The way this is done is by striking a deal; where if you are granted a patent, you can restrict other people from using your invention. Therefore, providing you the opportunity to make money. NO ONE would spend millions of dollars trying to invent something, if the moment they tried to make money, someone could, instead of spending the money to invent something themselves, could just copy the invention and compete with them on the market. The key to all this is that this exclusively has a time limit. As far as I know, patent protection expires after 20 years (in the US). The other important point is that you can sell your patent rights, allowing other people to use your invention, in exchange for money. Usually, in the form of royalties. So, if others wanted to make table saws with brake technology, they could have bought the rights from SS.

Without knowing any of the specifics, I’m going to guess that the SS patents are about to expire and companies are getting ready with their own products.

Edit: I should add that I am also a SS owner and I also hope Bosch develops a new saw. Competition is a good thing. But, I also think SS broke new ground by developing a great safety feature and deserved the right to restrict other people from copying them. Until the patent expires…..

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Kazooman

1540 posts in 3005 days


#14 posted 03-17-2015 12:14 AM

Good summary. I agree, as a SawStop owner, that there is room for a ton of innovation in this field. I hope that the Bosch entry is the first of many. I would love to see some innovative system make my SawStop technology obsolete.. Good reason to purchase another tool!

Never, ever, underestimate the power of the dependant patent claims and their ability to tie a program up in legal limbo until some court, somewhere, determines the actual limits of the prior claim. And then we are on the chase backwards through increasingly broader claims until a judge cries “enough”!

“Bazillions” of dollars have been won or lost on this legal quagmire of a battle field. The potential income stream from selling table saws pales in comparison.

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MikeDVB

180 posts in 2234 days


#15 posted 03-17-2015 12:51 AM

Very interesting. I am curious to see this system in action in slow-motion.

-- Mike

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TimberMagic

114 posts in 2232 days


#16 posted 03-17-2015 01:10 AM

I’ve used a SawStop and plan to buy one to upgrade my underpowered contractor saw. It is an amazing product, and a decent cabinet saw even without considering the safety features. I applaud SawStop for defending their turf. They ponied up the development dollars to bring the technology to market, and went so far as to offer it up for a cost. So what? OK, maybe a little irritating that they requested that all saws use their technology, but they at least offered to sell the technology. You do what you need to do to maximize profits before your patents expire.

People don’t like the owner? OK, I can understand now. I didn’t know he was an attorney … :-)

-- Lee

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SteveMI

1167 posts in 4347 days


#17 posted 03-17-2015 01:30 AM

I have access to a SS and really consider it a fine cabinet saw. It seems to me that the cost difference between the SS and other cabinet saws has shrunk. That said, there are two frozen blade assemblies mounted on the wall, one due to a moisture pocket and the other is still unknown. No blood has needed to be wiped up though.

The Bosch will be another option if it meets the cabinet saw level.

Steve.

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altendky

169 posts in 3263 days


#18 posted 03-17-2015 02:05 AM


NO ONE would spend millions of dollars trying to invent something, if the moment they tried to make money, someone could, instead of spending the money to invent something themselves, could just copy the invention and compete with them on the market.

- isotope

From Wikipedia:


It took Gass two weeks to do the design, and a third week to build a prototype based on a ”$200 secondhand table saw.”

Would he not have created it if patent rights were only for 5 years? Or if they didn’t exist at all? There certainly are inventions that take massive amounts of money and manpower but so many great inventions do not. Same goes for copyright, probably even more so though copyrights keep on getting longer and longer (you’ll love it or hate it, but here’s a copyright video from a few years ago).

I’m not saying that copyright and patents shouldn’t exist but I think that they are often given away too easily and in most cases for much longer than needed.

Anyways, thanks to Gass for making SawStop, no thanks for trying to make money by forcing other companies to pay into his monopoly, and thanks to any company that continues to try to develop a product that improves the marketplace and expands our options.

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Holbs

2378 posts in 3082 days


#19 posted 03-17-2015 02:14 AM

But… what happens if I get things mixed up? I put my airbag in my saw, and saw blade in steering wheel?

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

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dawsonbob

3995 posts in 2808 days


#20 posted 03-17-2015 02:18 AM

Cutting edge steering wheel?

-- Mistakes are what pave the road to perfection

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InstantSiv

262 posts in 2647 days


#21 posted 03-17-2015 02:29 AM

Competition is good!

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Shadowrider

183 posts in 2262 days


#22 posted 03-17-2015 04:59 AM

Isn’t the sensing method the same exact thing in those lamps that turn off/on by touch? Has he brought litigation against the lamp companies? Me thinks he doesn’t stand a chance suing Bosch or that the patent office did zero research in granting his patent. I really could believe the latter.

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rick1955

264 posts in 2483 days


#23 posted 03-17-2015 11:51 AM

http://www.whirlwindtool.com
Don’t forget Whirlwind is working on one as well…

-- Working smarter with less tools is a true crafts person...

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Gshepherd

1727 posts in 3254 days


#24 posted 03-17-2015 11:55 AM

I do hope Bosch gets to the market place with that technology. I be interested in getting one. I purchased the Sawstop slider for my PM66 and called to check if it would just bolt up or what mods I would have to make for it and they had no idea but I got the darn pitch of buying their saw and why didn’t I think it was important to replace my Pm66 to save my fingers…... That was a real turnoff for me. I will say that the slider is top shelf and it does use the same bolt holes as a PM66, you just have to make the holes on the Sawstop bigger to get it flush with the table is all…..

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

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OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 3163 days


#25 posted 03-17-2015 12:04 PM

As a SawStop owner since 2010, and user for years before that, I hope everyone can have blade stopping technology someday. It’s good stuff…

I hope more systems that work as well as the SS version come out, as competition often drives better ideas. Good on Bosch!

That said, any new system would need to work without guard, be as user friendly, and not prevent the use of sleds, jigs, etc… to be competitive with SawStop. The Whirlwind version would be great on saws that do nothing but rip or crosscut with a miter gauge, but it fails miserably everywhere else. The elegance of the SawStop system is that aside from bypassing it when cutting wet material, it is transparent to the user, allowing every tablesaw operation ever devised to be performed as if the system wasn’t there.

One of the reasons for Bosch to be adding a brake may be the market entry of the SawStop job site saw. Once that saw hits the market, every other job site saw that gets used by employees, customers, students, anyone who didn’t purchase the saw… just became obsolete.

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OggieOglethorpe

1276 posts in 3163 days


#26 posted 03-17-2015 12:12 PM

Mr. Unix…

Unfortunately, the CPSC, PTI and Gass himself have stated that anyone who does will be taken to court over SawStops overly broad patents.

Got a source for this? I’d like to learn more.

Thanks!

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tsdahc

109 posts in 3404 days


#27 posted 03-17-2015 12:52 PM

I was a Bosch TS owner and am now a SS owner. I think its great Bosch is coming out with this, will give SS a little competition with their new worksite saw. I think its a good thing as a little competition never hurt anybody. I do not think that this will really change the cabinet saw market, Bosch isn’t in the business of stationary tools, at least not yet. I’m sure SS will want to protect their patent but I’m pretty sure Bosch can litigate them out of business. Bosch is massive compared to SS, even if SS has a valid patent infringement case, Im sure the lawyers could make a pretty good go at draining SS through the court system. I hope that doesn’t happen as I think SS makes a really nice saw and would hate for them to go away over it.

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SirIrb

1239 posts in 2283 days


#28 posted 03-17-2015 01:06 PM

Which begins my issue with intellectual property. I have 7 or 8 patients in my name that the company I worked for got. I still hate the whole idea. I stalls progress.


Bosch is a member of the Power Tool Institute (PTI), which developed a safety design that is better and more efficient than SawStop years ago, and any member of PTI is free to implement it without royalty or other compensation. Unfortunately, the CPSC, PTI and Gass himself have stated that anyone who does will be taken to court over SawStops overly broad patents. It will be interesting to see how he reacts if they do indeed bring it to market.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix


-- Don't blame me, I voted for no one.

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helluvawreck

32122 posts in 3919 days


#29 posted 03-17-2015 01:08 PM

Hoorah for Bosch. I think that it is a great thing. Competition is always good to have and usually leads to better value.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- helluvawreck aka Charles, http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

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albachippie

773 posts in 4088 days


#30 posted 03-17-2015 01:13 PM



Very interesting. I am curious to see this system in action in slow-motion.

- MikeDVB

Me too. Also, if Bosch does succeed in this, it may mean that we get a safety system in Europe at last, where Sawstop have so far apparently failed to satisfy safety concerns. I shall watch with great anticipation!

Garry

-- Garry fae Bonnie Scotland

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devann

2260 posts in 3745 days


#31 posted 03-17-2015 01:27 PM

Bosch has a novel idea there. It should do well in the marketplace. For all of the noise about the Saw Stop Co. and related patents here is my 2¢.

I recall many years ago when dealing with patent lawyers that a patent could be granted for even an improvement on an existing product. To put this in the simplest of terms, a paper clip. There was a person that held the patent for a paper clip. Along came a secretary and she thought it would be a good idea if the paper clip had some small notches made onto it to improve the gripping power of the paper clip. The secretary was granted a patent for the improvement to the paper clip.

Another example: it has to do with trade marks. I remember years ago when I would buy record albums. You know those black pieces of vinyl that spun around our turntables @ 33 1/3 rpm. I’d get a new album, transfer to reel-to-reel for home use then dub to cassette tapes for the automobile. One of the more popular cassette tapes was the TDK sa90. Along come some outfit and they chose to label their cassette packaging KDT and they had a logo that was remarkably similar to the TDK brand. The “copycats” were sued, but they won the lawsuit. It seemed that even a slight variance was allowed. It didn’t help the copycats. The bad publicity,inferior product & everybody being angry at them saw the copycats fold and disappear from the market.

-- Darrell, making more sawdust than I know what to do with

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bbasiaga

1259 posts in 3048 days


#32 posted 03-17-2015 01:59 PM

Bosch certainly has an army of its own laywers, who feel at least reasonably confident that they can survive a challenge in court by the SS guys. It may also be possible that Bosch never intends to market this in the US, believing they can get to Europe where (as I think I understand) SS has not gotten a foot hold.

I like the SS saws. Wish I could get one, but don’t have the space or the money at the moment. Maybe with stuff like this on the market, it will put downward pressure on the pricing.

-Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

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Minorhero

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#33 posted 03-17-2015 05:40 PM

There is no doubt that sawstop has patents that would be infringed by this device as described thus far. In the past sawstop has sued folks who made any kind of blade brake. I remember a fellow had a system that used lasers for the detection system and he got shut down by sawstop a few years back.

All that said, there have been significant changes in the patent law recently. It is now easier to bust a patent, and after litigating a case in the trial court it can not be completely re-litigated on appeal. That last one may sound odd, but you used to have to litigate the same case over and over thus adding a lot to the cost of patent cases. Now you only need to do it once and let argument work in your favor on appeal. What this means is that companies like Bosch are willing to take on sawstop and try and bust their patent. It remains to be seen if sawstop will take up the challenge and risk losing their entire IP portfolio, or ignore this one because it doesn’t threaten their core market….yet.

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CharlesA

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#34 posted 03-17-2015 05:48 PM

Hasn’t the whirlwind been vaporware for years now?

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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Woodbum

950 posts in 4118 days


#35 posted 03-17-2015 06:08 PM

As big as Bosch is, who’s to say that a cabinet saw is not in their future vision. That being said however, the jobsite market could be huge for this type product. You can bet Sawstop will weigh in. Gass will piss and moan and whine, but ultimately his advocating for mandated safety features in all table saws could come back to bite him in that this is what he has been advocating for…except it ain’t his. Competition makes this Country cool.

-- "Now I'm just another old guy wearing funny clothes"

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MrUnix

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#36 posted 03-17-2015 07:01 PM

Got a source for this? I’d like to learn more.

Unfortunately, the CPSC site is acting up (they claim ‘maintenance’), so I can’t search the archives for the actual meeting transcripts… however, here is an article in Popular Woodworking that summarizes it:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/cpsc-table-saw-rules-emotion-vs-numbers

The relevant excerpt to your query is:

In 2009, the Power Tool Institute was awarded a patent for a safety mechanism that retracts the saw blade below the table on contact, without engaging the blade with a brake mechanism. Any of the companies that are members of PTI can use this technology. But PTI, Gass and CPSC have all acknowledged that any implementation of a device that met the conditions of the rule would result in lengthy litigation over the patent claims held by Gass.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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OggieOglethorpe

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#37 posted 03-17-2015 07:08 PM

Thanks!

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CharlesA

3462 posts in 2850 days


#38 posted 03-17-2015 07:09 PM

A little more news

Looks like the SS jobsite and the Bosch will be competing head to head.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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Shadowrider

183 posts in 2262 days


#39 posted 03-17-2015 08:06 PM

This is from 2011:

[quote]For eight years, Gass has lobbied the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to require all table saws sold in the U.S. to be equipped with SawStop or a similar safety device. Agency officials have studied the question but stopped short of acting. They may soon take it up again, and if they impose the requirement, that will make Gass a happy—and potentially rich—man.

His rivals are anything but happy. The Power Tool Institute, a Cleveland-based trade group of major manufacturers including Robert Bosch, Stanley Black & Decker (SWK), Ryobi, and Techtronic Industries, is fighting Gass’s efforts. They say requiring a blade brake would destroy the market for the cheapest, most popular saws, adding $100 or more to the price of consumer models that typically sell for less than $200. The CPSC puts the industry’s cost at about $70 million a year.

Full article here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/magazine/content/11_25/b4233032712156.htm
[/quote]

And this is from 2014:

[quote]That last bit, about less expensive alternatives, has to do with a safety system that has never been offered to the tool-buying public. The system—which consists of electronics and a pyrotechnic drop mechanism—was jointly developed under the auspices of the Power Tool Institute (PTI), a trade group that represents many of the world’s power tool companies. It works like this: when the saw’s electronics sense flesh (or some other conductive material) they fire a .22 caliber blank and use the resulting gas pressure to retract the blade below the table in a matter of milliseconds—fast enough to prevent serious injury to the person whose flesh touched the blade (see slideshow). According to PTI, the blade isn’t damaged and for the cost of a shell (the kind used in powder actuated fastening tools) the mechanism can be reset and the saw put back into action. Activating the SawStop mechanism destroys the blade and a $70-90 cartridge.

PTI received a U.S. patent (7,628,101) for its safety system in 2009 but claims actions by SawStop have prevented its use. In comments submitted (see page 11) to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) in March 2012, the PTI said that when SawStop learned of the pyrotechnic drop mechanism it “amended one of its then-pending patent applications to purportedly cover any table saw that, instead of application of a blade braking system, would retract the blade rapidly within 14 milliseconds –using any retraction technique after detecting contact.” That application was accepted by the U.S. patent office—effectively nixing any competing system that relies on fast retraction of the blade. The power tool companies could make use of the PTI safety system but it would mean engaging in costly patent infringement litigation with no guarantee they’d prevail.

Full article here:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/safety/sawstop-v-the-world_o.aspx[/quote]

The takeaway that I get is that the PTI is and has been fighting Sawstop to the point of even getting their own patent, not working with them. I wasn’t aware of the Sawstop designer tying to obtain a government mandated and government granted monopoly. I just thought it was his marketing. What a douchebag!

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runswithscissors

3129 posts in 3078 days


#40 posted 03-17-2015 10:57 PM

I’ve been advocating for a system like this for maybe a couple of years now. My objection to SS (aside from Gass’s bullying tactics) is that it accomplishes its purpose too destructively. Like driving into a bridge abutment instead of having working brakes.

I suspect that the companies that rebuffed Gass may have objected to it on these grounds, as well as his monetary demands.

Simply getting the blade out of the way is all that’s needed. Period.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

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English

690 posts in 2530 days


#41 posted 03-18-2015 12:39 AM

I’m a SS owner. Love the saw, But I think competition is a good thing.

-- John, Suffolk Virgina

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daddywoofdawg

1029 posts in 2627 days


#42 posted 03-18-2015 01:11 AM

all you have to do is add a little tweak and skirt the patent.and I think patents only last 13 years.

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lateralus819

2243 posts in 2942 days


#43 posted 03-18-2015 04:53 AM

This had my thinking on my long drive today about Bosch using it’s “auto” tech.

Why couldn’t they make the arbor longer on the other end a develop a smaller disc break setup similar to a car. When flesh is sensed it actives the caliper to halt the blade? Dunno probably wouldn’t make sense but hey! I was bored.

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jmartel

9168 posts in 3202 days


#44 posted 03-18-2015 05:07 AM



This had my thinking on my long drive today about Bosch using it s “auto” tech.

Why couldn t they make the arbor longer on the other end a develop a smaller disc break setup similar to a car. When flesh is sensed it actives the caliper to halt the blade? Dunno probably wouldn t make sense but hey! I was bored.

- lateralus819

Wouldn’t stop the blade fast enough. I’m skeptical that this technology mentioned would stop it fast enough as well.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

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ElChe

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#45 posted 03-18-2015 05:25 AM

The Saw Stop is only rated for hot dogs. The Bosch can handle kielbasa and salami.

-- Tom - Measure twice cut once. Then measure again. Curse. Fudge.

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AHuxley

874 posts in 4374 days


#46 posted 03-18-2015 05:33 AM

This had my thinking on my long drive today about Bosch using it s “auto” tech.

Why couldn t they make the arbor longer on the other end a develop a smaller disc break setup similar to a car. When flesh is sensed it actives the caliper to halt the blade? Dunno probably wouldn t make sense but hey! I was bored.

- lateralus819

Wouldn t stop the blade fast enough. I m skeptical that this technology mentioned would stop it fast enough as well.

- jmartel

The interesting bit of info is that one site (at least) is suggesting the Bosch accomplishes the “event” in 50 microseconds which is 10 times faster than SS claims, however this is not the official Bosch claim as they have not officially released this info yet.

I have no question that a system cross purposing airbag technology could actually be faster than the current SS method but that doesn’t mean it is or isn’t. Even when the numbers come out (and I am sure they will be vetted by SS and others) it still begs the question of what is really fast enough.

My gut tells me that any early skepticism regarding the effectiveness of the Bosch system is probably not warranted. From a performance standpoint Bosch is in the enviable position of having a benchmark system to work against. SS was in somewhat of a brave new world initially, they had to design the system in the theoretical world, but “all” Bosch has to do is ensure their system meets the operational specifications of the SS and they basically know they are golden. From a liability standpoint I expect they are very sure of their product since they have a LOT to potentially lose, far more than SS did in its infancy at least in terms of actual money, Steve Gass probably had a pretty large personal financial stake tied up to begin with though almost surely personally fairly well insulated, but still probably spent some sleepless nights worried about a suit that found a way to pierce the corporate veil.

For me I am happy to see the competition and hope it spreads to larger saws, however I am simply looking on from the sidelines since I am happy with my saw which short of the blade brake (or break if you prefer) is more or less the equal of the ICS.

edit forgot the link to the site I referenced http://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-table-saw-gts1041a-preview/14811/

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AHuxley

874 posts in 4374 days


#47 posted 03-18-2015 05:37 AM



The Saw Stop is only rated for hot dogs. The Bosch can handle kielbasa and salami.

- ElChe

Those are more Eastern and Southern European sausages, my guess they are rated for bratwurst and knackwurst but I am guessing Bosch doesn’t want anything to do with blutworst as it would seem to be something they are trying to avoid making.

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MrUnix

8510 posts in 3251 days


#48 posted 03-18-2015 06:27 AM

The interesting bit of info is that one site (at least) is suggesting the Bosch accomplishes the “event” in 50 microseconds which is 10 times faster than SS claims, however this is not the official Bosch claim as they have not officially released this info yet.

I have no question that a system cross purposing airbag technology could actually be faster than the current SS method but that doesn t mean it is or isn t. Even when the numbers come out (and I am sure they will be vetted by SS and others) it still begs the question of what is really fast enough.

My understanding is that the SS fires the mechanism by releasing a compressed spring. The Bosch method is to use a .22 caliber nail gun cartridge, which when fired, produces some 10,000 pounds of force that pushes a piston in a cylinder. The cool bit of it is that once fired, you can re-arm it by simply removing the end cap and replacing the cartridge and firing pin. Once the blade is lowered below the table, it doesn’t really matter how fast or slow the blade comes to a stop since it is out of harms way.

You can read the patent here: http://www.google.com/patents/US7628101
(complete with detailed description and drawings)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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altendky

169 posts in 3263 days


#49 posted 03-18-2015 11:57 AM

The theory of what speed is needed isn’t that complicated. I don’t know what is really a ‘normal’ blade speed but I’ll take 5000 RPM and also an 80 tooth crosscut blade. The basics are:

Time between teeth: 150 microseconds

In kickback situation assuming acceleration to blade tooth speed and 1/16in acceptable blade/finger overlap: 24 microseconds

For reference, the speed of the teeth (and my estimated maximum velocity towards the blade in a kickback) is: 149 miles per hour

I normally include the equations here but LJ was interpreting them as bold formatting and such… follow links for the if you care to check my equations.

Now, what to do with those basic numbers? I would guess that the latter two are tighter requirements than actually need to be met because kickback is not going to instantaneously accelerate the wood and your hand to the speed of the blade and it would also slow the blade down some. With some estimates for weight of the moving components when retracting the blade we could make a rough estimate of the velocity achieved by a .22 caliber blank. I’m guessing we could find enough data to identify it’s energy release. Note that while we would have a LOT more mass to accelerate than a bullet, per Wikipedia it seems that bullets are in the 1-3000MPH range so at less than 150MPH we have a bit of leeway there.

For completeness, this is a shower/breakfast grade analysis that in part neglects the scenario of a blade lifted to full height with a finger moving towards it more or less perpendicular to any motion. But, it does point towards needing response/actuation times down in the 10’s of microseconds range similar to the 50 microsecond unofficially referenced number for Bosch.

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Bill7255

428 posts in 3337 days


#50 posted 03-18-2015 04:22 PM

i think it is great that Bosch is getting into the game. Sure SawStop will review to make sure their patents are not infringed, but I believe Bosch knows what they are doing. I see this ending up more like a PC vs. Mac type thing. Some like/ hate one, but both companies doing well. Bosch will need to prove their effectiveness and reliability. Then there will be a cost to this. SawStop had to design their saws from the ground up, where Bosch just needs to modify theirs. So I think Bosch will be able to introduce still a lower price. Then will the CPSC re-look at making blade technology mandatory? Seems like this will force other companies into something. I too did not like the fact Glass tried to force his technology on everyone. However to me the PTI was telling me I did not need it. Finally Bosch has stepped up and come up with a method to compete with SawStop. All the PTI whining about patents is just that. Bosch has proven that. I bought a SawStop based on my decision and not anything else.

-- Bill R

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