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View DKV's profile

Gold Standards...

by DKV
posted 09-21-2014 11:46 PM


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74 replies

74 replies so far

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

515 posts in 2501 days


#1 posted 09-21-2014 11:51 PM

I guess I missed the memo about saw stop and dewalt…...

Was there a news conference?

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View Woodmaster1's profile

Woodmaster1

1265 posts in 3124 days


#2 posted 09-22-2014 12:02 AM

Not to start a reaction of comments I think there are other table saws built as well or better than the sawstop. It has the safety feature after that I like my unisaw better. I have access to a sawstop pcs and some things are better on my unisaw. The table extension, blade guard , table size, and controls are better on the unisaw. I will not compare motors because my unisaw has 5hp and the sawstop I use has 1.75hp.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4184 days


#3 posted 09-22-2014 12:07 AM

http://www.martin-usa.com/

Northfield is the only maker I’m aware of still
producing direct drive “pattermaker” variety
saws.

Agazzani has the edge in steel framed band
saws, though Northfield still produces cast
iron ones the way they have for decades.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3940 posts in 3041 days


#4 posted 09-22-2014 12:12 AM

Loren, very nice. Which category are they the gold standard?

Samurai, I guessed Sawstop and Dewalt based on comments on this site.

-- This is a Troll Free zone.

View waho6o9's profile (online now)

waho6o9

8785 posts in 3113 days


#5 posted 09-22-2014 12:19 AM

Mafell rocks the track saw industry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn8npDkfKCo

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4184 days


#6 posted 09-22-2014 01:05 AM

Martin is pretty much the best of the best across
the whole product line. Highest prices generally
and best resale value. It’s a little academic for
a site like this because most small shops would not
be able to use a Martin to its capacity and justify
the investment… I think a Martin shaper all tricked
out costs somewhere north of $30k.

View distrbd's profile

distrbd

2252 posts in 2983 days


#7 posted 09-22-2014 03:24 AM

How about Delta Milwaukee for 14” bandsaw,Hilty power drill,Porter-Cable for router ,Wadkin British machines .

-- Ken from Ontario, Canada

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1584 posts in 3604 days


#8 posted 09-22-2014 04:15 AM

PC 7518 in the table router. That term I hear over and over.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3940 posts in 3041 days


#9 posted 09-22-2014 06:39 AM

I’m glad to see we are all of like opinion. Surprising that no one thought Powermatic was worth mentioning. Maybe it’s the cost and there are just not many out there. Retired folk have to watch where their nickels and dimes get spent and there wasn’t much to be spent when still working and fighting the union busting companies. Only the wealthy in America can afford Martin and Powermatic. The rest have to settle for Delta, Grizzly, General, Sears, JC Penney, Walmart, Canadian Tire, etc.

On a side note, did anyone know JoeLydon has his own woodworking site? Surprise to me! I think I’ll join. Good old Joe…

-- This is a Troll Free zone.

View unbob's profile

unbob

810 posts in 2440 days


#10 posted 09-22-2014 08:25 AM

I certainly did not get the memo on the SS either!
Being that the 10” saws are not the right machine for me, and just from observation, The Delta Unisaw appears to be the standard by what others 10” are judged-for better or worse. Often the old PM66 considered a little better.
Bandsaws, The Tannewitz comes to mind.

Compared to what? really good equipment no longer made, Martin, Northfield, industrial machines, or strictly current Asian imports.

View hairy's profile

hairy

2964 posts in 4069 days


#11 posted 09-22-2014 12:14 PM

http://turnrobust.com/ for lathes.

-- Genghis Khan and his brother Don, couldn't keep on keeping on...

View UpstateNYdude's profile

UpstateNYdude

934 posts in 2519 days


#12 posted 09-22-2014 12:50 PM

You really need to specify what area you’re referring to, are we talking home hobbyist shop or commercial?

-- Nick, “I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it.” – Vincent Van Gogh

View BikerDad's profile

BikerDad

347 posts in 4138 days


#13 posted 09-22-2014 06:54 PM

There are a whole lot of variables that come into play. First question is are we talking current production or not? If not? Second question is are we talking jobsite (where portability is an issue, and 120v power is a limit), large commercial (5 & 6 figure machines), small commercial, serious hobbyist, or DIY or casual user? Portable or not?

There are a few “gold standards” that can reasonably be identified:

Lamello for biscuit joiners.
SawStop for tablesaw safety.

-- I'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park! Grace & Peace.

View Woodbum's profile

Woodbum

897 posts in 3602 days


#14 posted 09-22-2014 07:26 PM

I hope that I don’t get trashed for these but these are a few of my choices for the broad hobbyist market.
This is my two cents worth: for me, as a hobbyist (Leaving out Festool which are probably the “gold standard” in terms of quality, but you need a large standard amount of gold to buy them. Too pricey for me, IMHO)

Table router motors: PC 7518
Router Lifts: Jessum or Woodpeckers
Table saw: Powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw ( I own a Griz)
Hand held router: Bosch 1617EVS or older PC 690
Drill Press: Powermatic 2800 or 1792800B or Delta 18-900L (have the PM 2800. saved and splurged)
12” Slider Compound Miter Saw: Bosch GCM12SD ( Don’t have – but covet)
12” Non Slider: Dewalt 715
Planer : Dewalt DW 735 ( price and floor space being the great factors over the 15” and 20” models)
Router Table Fence: Incra LS w/ Wonder Fence
TS Fence: Biesemeyer or Incra
ROS: Bosch ROS65VCL ( I have a couple older PC Porter Cable 382 plus 1 of the little squat PCs which is trash)
Jointer: Powermatic or Delta 8” Griz 6 or 8 inch are great values though in price v quality, IMHO

DKV is right though, most of us buy what we can afford and make it work, and if we want top or near top of the line, we have to save up our dough until we can get the brass ring while we are still working. After retirement, we are pretty much stuck with what we have, the economy being what it has been for the last 10-12 years.

-- "Now I'm just another old guy wearing funny clothes"

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

515 posts in 2501 days


#15 posted 09-22-2014 08:17 PM

You can put my vote in for Powermatic, Jet, PC, Milwaukee, and Bosch. Minor vote for DeWalt.

PM2000-finest table saw I’ve ever worked with
PM15-HH Planer-rock solid
Jet DC and Drill Press-great machines
Porter Cable Routers, saws, sanders-most have the Made in USA badges
Milwaukee cordless and corded hand tools-no complaints
Bosch hand tools-great tools
DeWalt 735, SCMS, and jobsite table saw-reliable

Too many others to list, I have a 2400 sq ft shop with 2 employees and we buy to use. Cheap tools are no bargain for me.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5767 posts in 3780 days


#16 posted 09-22-2014 08:45 PM

Sorry, but the SS being the “gold standard” is only your personal opinion. Not everyone will agree with you. Remove the safety feature and it is no better than any other saw, certainly not against a Unisaw, PM, Jet General, Oliver or Northfield. A saw should be judged by what it can do, not what it cannot do. (ie: cut off fingers).

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3387 posts in 2334 days


#17 posted 09-22-2014 09:10 PM

“Gold standard” is always someone’s personal opinion.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4592 posts in 4279 days


#18 posted 09-22-2014 09:21 PM

Oneway is king of the lathes (made in Canada)

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View RRBOU's profile

RRBOU

231 posts in 2829 days


#19 posted 09-22-2014 09:51 PM

Anything INCRA.

-- If guns cause crime all of mine are defective Randy

View waho6o9's profile (online now)

waho6o9

8785 posts in 3113 days


#20 posted 09-22-2014 09:59 PM

Oneway is top notch no doubt, however, Robust will give ‘em

some good competition.

View Mainiac Matt 's profile

Mainiac Matt

9348 posts in 2865 days


#21 posted 09-22-2014 10:05 PM

I’d have to say that Makita’s 18v LI and DeWalts 20 Vmax (18v) LI cordless drills and drivers are currently tops in their category…. Ergonomics, power, light weight, and long lasting/quick charging batteries.

-- Matt -- I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam

View unbob's profile

unbob

810 posts in 2440 days


#22 posted 09-22-2014 10:38 PM

I don’t want to be absolutely negative on the SS!
The arbor bearing arrangement looks good, I would suspect that alone would produce a better cut finish then perhaps a Unisaw.
The rest of the world looks at the SS as a fix for terrible work habits in the US-I do agree with that, check out youtube.
Often there are post here about stupid and dangerous table saw videos on youtube. Often saying what a dummy or idiot. Probably true! But, in those threads, I have asked “how does one learn to operate a table saw safely?” No replies to that question.
Really, is the answer to buy a SS and continue to do risky operations?

If one insist on placing themselves in harms way, not paying attention, and not taking every precaution , stay away from shapers!

View ,'s profile

,

2387 posts in 4083 days


#23 posted 09-23-2014 01:22 AM

I actually have no earthly idea what the gold standard is. I would not know it if I had it right in my shop. I only know that i love to play with my toys daily even if they are only a hunk of heavy scrap metal. My only hope is to surround my shop with made in US, even if it were made 30 years ago. At this time the only large machine in our shop made in Taiwan/China is our drum sander. And I have a future vision to correct that.

-- .

View distrbd's profile

distrbd

2252 posts in 2983 days


#24 posted 09-23-2014 02:10 AM

DKV,Do you have 220v?

-- Ken from Ontario, Canada

View DKV's profile

DKV

3940 posts in 3041 days


#25 posted 09-23-2014 02:11 AM

:-) Yes I do.

-- This is a Troll Free zone.

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4592 posts in 4279 days


#26 posted 09-23-2014 05:11 AM


The rest of the world looks at the SS as a fix for terrible work habits in the US-I do agree with that, check out youtube.

- unbob

Seems an overly broad generalization. I think much of the rest of the world has never heard of a saw stop.

There are few home shops in Europe with a cabinet saw in their garages. Just not something the average joe can just go buy and plug in. (not illegal… just quite rare).

European saws generally cannot accommodate Dado sets… instead requiring they be cut with a router or hand tools.
Commercial shops are all typically using big German Felder Sliding saws.

For home hobbyists, there is a contractor type saw (a Saw Bench in the UK)
I don’t see anything “Special” about this saw that makes it safer than any other tablesaw with a riving knife.
Nothing stops you from removing the dust shroud either like is so often the case with the factory dust bonnet.

I searched around and cannot find stats on accidents in the UK or EU….nor a good way to get what the relative rate is, given the UK is 60 million people, with a proportionately smaller number of hobby saw owners.

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View JohnnyStrawberry's profile

JohnnyStrawberry

246 posts in 2855 days


#27 posted 09-23-2014 09:39 AM

wow, that robust looks great. =)
We have Felder in EU – no need for SS. (Sliders rock.)
Where are the festool hypers???
A few pun intended here and there… for DKV’s amusement. :-D
Seriously though, Bosch can bear that ribbon in the jigsaw category. (At least.)
(See here)

-- What are those few hours of mine compared to those decades Mother Nature has put in it!

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5767 posts in 3780 days


#28 posted 09-23-2014 08:38 PM

A SS is a cabinet saw with training wheels.

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3387 posts in 2334 days


#29 posted 09-23-2014 08:42 PM

A fence is an airbag for a table saw. Be a real man and go free-hand.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5801 posts in 3030 days


#30 posted 09-23-2014 08:45 PM

I’m pretty sure the Harbor Freight 2 HP DC is the standard that all others are judged against. :)

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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HokieMojo

2104 posts in 4265 days


#31 posted 09-23-2014 08:46 PM

Dewalt makes the best 50 year old radial arm saws

View buildingmonkey's profile

buildingmonkey

242 posts in 2084 days


#32 posted 09-24-2014 02:33 AM

I bought a Hammer tablesaw last winter, while their promotion was on. Already had a Unisaw, but could not resist after watching the video on the Hammer site. It is the hobbyist version of the Felder sliding tablesaw. A cabinet saw is great for ripping, but using an American tablesaw for cross cutting leaves something to be desired. The euros have made a saw that is excellent for both, and you have not really appreciated sawing until you have tried one.

-- Jim from Kansas

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3387 posts in 2334 days


#33 posted 09-24-2014 02:48 AM

I’m really intrigued by the Euro sliders. I had thought they the U.S. cabinets were better for ripping, the Euros for cross-cutting. You’re saying the slider is as useful for ripping as the cabinet saw?

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5414 posts in 2846 days


#34 posted 09-24-2014 12:36 PM

I have both, a Felder sliding say and an table saw. I find myself ripping more on the table saw. All cross cuts are done on the slider.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View NoThanks's profile

NoThanks

798 posts in 2065 days


#35 posted 09-24-2014 01:33 PM



I have both, a Felder sliding say and an table saw. I find myself ripping more on the table saw. All cross cuts are done on the slider.

- AlaskaGuy

What size is your slider?
I’m looking at getting one, but feel it would have to at least have the 8’ capacity to rip a full sheet.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View Gene Howe's profile

Gene Howe

11870 posts in 3965 days


#36 posted 09-24-2014 01:38 PM

Craftsman sells some good screwdrivers.

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

View The Box Whisperer's profile

The Box Whisperer

678 posts in 2607 days


#37 posted 09-24-2014 01:42 PM

my understanding is the festool sanders are the best when paired with their vacs

-- "despite you best efforts and your confidence that your smarter and faster than a saw blade at 10k rpm…. your not …." - Charles Neil

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4592 posts in 4279 days


#38 posted 09-24-2014 07:40 PM


I have both, a Felder sliding say and an table saw. I find myself ripping more on the table saw. All cross cuts are done on the slider.

- AlaskaGuy


Nice – I don’t have the space to do both a slider and tablesaw…

Can’t get myself to sell the tablesaw to drop the coin on a slider.

even the smallest Hammer K3 saw (31×31) is 3700 bucks on sale

Can’t justify that investment for ‘better crosscuts’, but I am a garage hobby guy.
If I were doing cabinets and cutting sheet goods – - the choice is then really easy.

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View DKV's profile

DKV

3940 posts in 3041 days


#39 posted 09-24-2014 07:53 PM

I have come to the conclusion, and you guys know through past experience that my conclusions are typically spot on, that whatever you own is the gold standard. You buy what you can afford and make do through mods, addons and severed fingers. After awhile you would swear, especially to those seeking advice, that what you own is the gold of gold standards. You come to love and admire the piece of junk. Kind of like a pig with lipstick. All you see are those gorgeous lips and the bright color red. It’s hard to admit you bought a lemon or couldn’t afford something better. Thusly, it becomes the standard that you preach and push. Am I right? Of course I am. When have I ever been wrong?

-- This is a Troll Free zone.

View unbob's profile

unbob

810 posts in 2440 days


#40 posted 09-24-2014 08:10 PM

Pretty typical from a Sawstop preacher.

View 12strings's profile

12strings

434 posts in 2921 days


#41 posted 09-24-2014 08:11 PM

I think Festool has the Gold standard Tenon-joiner (Domino types)...Many of their other small Power tools have really nice features not found on the tools in my shop.

-- I'm strictly hand-tool only...unless the power tool is faster and easier!

View BikerDad's profile

BikerDad

347 posts in 4138 days


#42 posted 09-24-2014 09:09 PM

For lathes, in addition to Oneway and Robust, you’ve got to add in the Aussie classic – Vicmarc.

-- I'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park! Grace & Peace.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5414 posts in 2846 days


#43 posted 09-25-2014 03:00 AM


Off hand I forget what it is in MM but it’s the 10 foot one.

I have both, a Felder sliding say and an table saw. I find myself ripping more on the table saw. All cross cuts are done on the slider.

- AlaskaGuy

What size is your slider?
I m looking at getting one, but feel it would have to at least have the 8 capacity to rip a full sheet.

- Iwud4u


-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View buildingmonkey's profile

buildingmonkey

242 posts in 2084 days


#44 posted 09-25-2014 11:17 AM

I bought the largest Hammer slider 79 ” stroke x 48” wide. It was just under 7000 delivered with almost all the options. Bought Tenryu blades from Carbide processors.com A shorter slider would not come as far back as mine, but I wanted to be able to straight line rip as long as possible. Would have liked to get a Felder 8’ slider, but a lot more money. Find the Unisaw is becoming a table in the shop, and the Hammer is for sawing. I can glue up a panel without using the jointer now, the joints are perfectly even. And when I square up the panel, it is less than 1/32 off measuring diagonally. I use the rip fence and find I have to stand left of the sliding table, but still can control a 4×8 sheet. Actually safer, as I am not standing behind the sheet in case of a kickback.

-- Jim from Kansas

View distrbd's profile

distrbd

2252 posts in 2983 days


#45 posted 09-25-2014 04:10 PM

Hung Li Hsing (Elephant brand) Bandsaw is the gold standard against which other crappy Chinese bandsaw manufacturer is pejoratively judged,if you find a bandsaw crappier than Elephant brand ,you must run.

-- Ken from Ontario, Canada

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5767 posts in 3780 days


#46 posted 09-25-2014 06:40 PM

Gold is the only gold standard. Sliders are great, but they take up too much space. If you are afraid of cutting off fingers and buy a SS, that tells me you shouldn’t be around power tools at all.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5414 posts in 2846 days


#47 posted 09-26-2014 05:41 AM

Buying a slider had nothing to do with fingers. The room it takes is well worth ever square inch. Of course you have to have the space.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View CharlesA's profile

CharlesA

3387 posts in 2334 days


#48 posted 09-26-2014 06:11 AM



Gold is the only gold standard. Sliders are great, but they take up too much space. If you are afraid of cutting off fingers and buy a SS, that tells me you shouldn t be around power tools at all.

- MrRon

i know you’re trolling the SS guys, but you’re argument is full of holes. If you had to use the sawstop in a way different from other table saws, your training wheels and “afraid of cutting off fingers” lines might have some merit. But the operation of the SS is identical to a Powermatic or any other table saw. It just uses a basically invisible safety system that only comes into play when it activates. You’ll have to do better.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Tony_S's profile

Tony_S

1027 posts in 3619 days


#49 posted 09-26-2014 10:28 AM


A SS is a cabinet saw with training wheels.

- MrRon


If you are afraid of cutting off fingers and buy a SS, that tells me you shouldn t be around power tools at all.

- MrRon

The huge amount of disdain you hold for sawstop shines so brightly it’s beyond blinding.
So brightly in fact, it apparently completely inhibits your ability to type anything of reason, respect or worth regarding the subject.

In other words….the statements quoted above are complete, 100%, unrefined bullshit.

-- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4592 posts in 4279 days


#50 posted 09-26-2014 07:23 PM



I have come to the conclusion, and you guys know through past experience that my conclusions are typically spot on, that whatever you own is the gold standard.
>
>
Thusly, it becomes the standard that you preach and push. Am I right? Of course I am. When have I ever been wrong?

- DKV

Don’t agree on the first part – there are upgrades I want, but cannot justify.
That is far from claiming that what I have today + the mods has made what I have a gold standard. It works, but could be better.

Haven’t bought many lemons, but haven’t bought the “TOP of the TOP anything”...except maybe my Leigh Dovetail Jig.

I am sure you have been wrong…. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. :^P

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

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