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View carver1942's profile

Talk about dangerous

by carver1942
posted 05-29-2014 01:02 PM


26 replies so far

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

5349 posts in 5011 days


#1 posted 05-29-2014 01:22 PM

Wahhhhhh!
Bill

-- [email protected]

View thetinman's profile

thetinman

294 posts in 2589 days


#2 posted 05-29-2014 03:17 PM

Ed – the sad thing is that you see this kind of stuff on YOUTUBE all the time. Most of the time they turn off the comments so you can’t call them on it.

I know you don’t do this stuff on your new saw.

Terry

-- Life is what happens to you while you are planning better things -Mark Twain

View Ted's profile

Ted

2877 posts in 3262 days


#3 posted 05-29-2014 03:27 PM

I put my fingers that close to the blade all the time, but I certainly don’t recommend anybody else do it. He knows where the blade is and where his fingers are.

-- You can collect dust or you can make dust. I choose to make it.

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8703 posts in 3849 days


#4 posted 05-29-2014 03:42 PM

+1 what Tedster said.
This guy is not a novice and he can still count to ten.

Safety is in the software (the operator) not in the hardware ( the saw guards etc.)

There are many of us who do things on a regular basis that we would not recommend to others but we are comfortable with our experience and knowledge of what we are doing.

Please don’t be too quick to judge.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Tomoose's profile

Tomoose

422 posts in 4424 days


#5 posted 05-29-2014 03:42 PM

Watching things like this just makes me cringe.

Tom

-- “I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it.” Pablo Picasso

View NoThanks's profile

NoThanks

798 posts in 2580 days


#6 posted 05-29-2014 03:57 PM

What happened? I didn’t see where the problem was.
Definitely not for Amateurs. LOL (there’s always one in the group)

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View thetinman's profile

thetinman

294 posts in 2589 days


#7 posted 05-29-2014 04:09 PM

My issue is not what he did – in the privacy of his own home so to speak. He did it as a how-to video. I could even accept it if he made a statement about how he was a professional – don’t try this at home. After all we all know that the blade guard was only removed for the camera. Otherwise we all use it all the time.

-- Life is what happens to you while you are planning better things -Mark Twain

View Underdog's profile

Underdog

1649 posts in 3086 days


#8 posted 05-29-2014 04:24 PM

Nothing wrong with what he did?!
Are you kidding me?

No fence, no splitter, no push stick, no guards….

-- Jim, Georgia, USA

View NoThanks's profile

NoThanks

798 posts in 2580 days


#9 posted 05-29-2014 06:50 PM

There are many of us who do things on a regular basis that we would not recommend to others but we are comfortable with our experience and knowledge of what we are doing.

Please don’t be too quick to judge.

+10

thetinman, I totally understand what you are saying.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View Ted's profile

Ted

2877 posts in 3262 days


#10 posted 05-29-2014 09:35 PM

Riding a bicycle without a helmet is more dangerous that what we saw in that video, and something else I do all the time. But in all fairness I have to admit I would not attempt that cut if, say, I had the hick-ups.

-- You can collect dust or you can make dust. I choose to make it.

View Underdog's profile

Underdog

1649 posts in 3086 days


#11 posted 05-30-2014 02:44 AM

To say I’m shocked that many of you make that kind of cut routinely is an understatement. At the VERY least you should use a fence…

Are you people frickin’ crazy?

-- Jim, Georgia, USA

View ShaneA's profile

ShaneA

7085 posts in 3649 days


#12 posted 05-30-2014 02:52 AM

The fingers close to the blade, for an experienced operator…maybe not that big of deal. Doing it while ripping a board without a fence seems a bit hazardous, to me. But hey, they are his fingers.

View Randy_ATX's profile

Randy_ATX

881 posts in 3493 days


#13 posted 05-30-2014 03:04 AM

I tend to agree with underdog. Especially the second cut closer to the 4:55 mark. I WOULD NEVER have my fingers and hands that close to the blade. No guard, no splitter, no fence, no push stick, nada. Safety 101.

-- Randy -- Austin, TX by way of Northwest (Woodville), OH

View ,'s profile

,

2387 posts in 4598 days


#14 posted 05-30-2014 03:06 AM

Seems to me that ripping without the rip fence is what would be troubling for me. If when ripping without a rip fence the work piece shifts left or right or gets out of alignment with the blade it can pinch the blade and start to kick back, that would be when things could get uneasy. I would say there are times myself, along with many others might rip wood and have our fingers a bit closer to the blade than should be. In our shop we cut ourselves some simple push blocks from wood so there really is no reason to get the fingers too close to the blade with scrap push blocks near by.

-- .

View BenR's profile

BenR

341 posts in 3679 days


#15 posted 05-30-2014 03:10 AM

Underdog -rock on. I would not make that cut like he did either, and I have the SawStop (suppose it didn’t work).
Those more experienced than I may choose to make that cut. Maybe they know something I don’t. The great thing is – it’s their fingers.

-- Ben in Va

View Paul's profile

Paul

721 posts in 2616 days


#16 posted 05-30-2014 04:17 AM

I personally didn’t see anything wrong in the video. I have less than 2 years experience on my table saw and would personally never try a free hand cut like that. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with it.

That said, I visited the shop of a person with considerable knowledge and many many years of experience under his tool belt this week(along with another shop last week) He made some cuts on his table saw and bandsaw that were very routine for him that I would not consider doing myself with only 2 years with my table saw and power tools.

He only has ten more fingers to lose. Apprenticeships are a long lost thing of the past. The internet is a great way of showing people the “rite way of doing things”. It’s also a great way to show people in ten seconds a dangerous cut done by someone with decades of experience that would be very dangerous for a novice but not so dangerous in the hands of someone with 10, 20, 30 years of experience or more than the individuals that scoff at the “dangerous” cuts.

Being mostly self taught and a safety sue myself I gauge internet how videos with a grain of salt. Having the opportunity to visit 2 shops in the last two weeks with a collaborate of roughly 550 years of personal shop experience you quickly learn what power tool techniques are acceptable to the professionals vrs what you do.

Real experience bodes well, seeing someone make routine cuts that I personally wouldn’t make was an eye opening experience for me. Will I do the cuts I saw over the last 2 weeks myself? Absolutely not! The risky to me cuts that I would never do personally were handled with caution and well executed.

Paul

View Ted's profile

Ted

2877 posts in 3262 days


#17 posted 05-30-2014 04:29 AM

I’d like to know how the blade is going to cut the skin from 1/4” away. Is the blade going to jump off the arbor and gitcha? No… the blade is in one place and the fingers are in a different place. They may be close together, but close and touching are two completely different things. Now if somebody is clumsy and sticks their finger into the blade, that’s a different story. Like the guy in the video, I know to not do that.

As for the fence, of course I use it when making long rips. It’s quicker and needless to say, more precise. But you know what? The fence is more likely to cause kick-back than anything else. As a board is being ripped and the stress released on the fence edge of the board, that side of the board could bow and actually push the wood into the exiting edge of the blade, thus lifting the board and throwing it back at you. A riffing knife, or splitter, will help prevent this to an extent. However, if there is enough stress the riffing knife could be pushed to the side. This is the very reason short fences are common in Europe—there is no fence beyond the blade, so nothing for the wood to pinch against.

Underdog, we’re not frikin’ crazy… we’re just of a different school. Like I said in my first post, I would not recommend anybody else try this.

-- You can collect dust or you can make dust. I choose to make it.

View Ted's profile

Ted

2877 posts in 3262 days


#18 posted 05-30-2014 04:34 AM

Paul, you make a good point about internet videos… they must be taken into perspective.

-- You can collect dust or you can make dust. I choose to make it.

View jinkyjock's profile

jinkyjock

488 posts in 2625 days


#19 posted 05-30-2014 10:37 AM

I don’t think anyone here is recommending such unsafe practices are good, particularly for inexperienced machine operators.
However, accidents can and do happen even to the best of us, not that I consider myself best.
Last year I was ripping some 3×2 for framing and didn’t notice a large knot (on the waste side) in a piece as I was running it through the saw.
As the knot passed through the saw it broke, got caught up in the saw, and the splinter was thrown back into my finger which was well away ( I thought) from danger.
The splinter had a razor edge and took a chunk out of my finger.

As Tedster says I have a European saw with adjustable rip-fence, riving knife, blade-guard, and I always have my push-sticks handy.
I now use my push-sticks more than I ever have
My finger was a bit mangled for a time, but has healed well after excellent medical treatment, bit tender in cold weather.
The guy in the video looks like an old hand so perhaps merits some slack, just hope he teaches his grandkids better.
Sorry it’s not a great picture, need to get a new phone, but am also thinking chisels.
Tough choice.

View carver1942's profile

carver1942

93 posts in 2755 days


#20 posted 05-30-2014 11:37 AM

Having many years experience doing the wrong thing only means the person was darn lucky. I have 50 years experience in machine work and have seen “experienced” workers do some pretty stupid things and get away with it. It’s when you don’t get away with it that shows how horrific the injuries can be. Table saws are not pencil sharpeners, when accidents happen it happens so fast and the injuries so bad it can change a persons life in a fraction of a second. For those that think I’m being overly judgmental about the video maybe they will find this information from the National Consumers League a little more informative. From the NCL;
”The number of table-saw injuries has risen to 40,000 annually, an increase of 10,000 a year in the last decade. About 4,000, or 10 percent, of the table-saw accidents each year result in finger amputation
This is not my opinion, it is fact. My opinion is, to push a piece of wood through a table saw blade freehand without a fence and some form of push stick is nothing short of foolhardy. Getting away with it often is fine until the time you don’t, and the results won’t be pretty. Think of it, 4000 fingers a year, 11 a day!!
A video such as this one is seen by many thousands of people. Some have the experience to know what is the proper way to operate a saw, but many are novices. A video like this does a tremendous disservice to them. And too approve of such actions on a forum with novice members seeking how to use their tools properly, from “experienced” members also does a disservice to our novice members. JMHO
Ed

View fuigb's profile

fuigb

593 posts in 4008 days


#21 posted 05-30-2014 12:43 PM

I agree with the sentiment that the old hands have some measure of responsibility to lead the young, both here as well as on vids cast out onto the interwebs.

I’m also overwhelmed by the (IMO) overly-litigous ways of society and a little flaunting of free will in the face of the nanny state and Big Brother sometimes brings satisfaction. Look at the manual for any tool that was sold new in the past 15 or 20 years and likely there are more pages of CYA legalese as well as unnecessary warnings for actions that should be a matter of common sense.

The answer? I don’t know. I resent both the scolding of the safety nazis and the lack of respect demonstrated by the manufacturers in their printed material. I’m not a dummy, afterall, and at that the very nature of this livelihood/hobby is dangerous and so casualties are to be expected when the tools have sharp edges. But… people see and then they do, and so arises the nightmare where the habits of the vets, the pros and the fools become the behaviors emulated by the green vid-watchers.

-- - Crud. Go tell your mother that I need a Band-aid.

View MrKnowItAll's profile

MrKnowItAll

20 posts in 2525 days


#22 posted 05-30-2014 04:30 PM

So, will it be ok to call this unsafe AFTER this guy finally loses a finger?

I thought the newbies did stupid/unsafe stuff, and the old pros had it figured out. not the other way around….

-- -because I said so, that's why

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

28236 posts in 3734 days


#23 posted 05-30-2014 04:59 PM

Lost just the tip of a finger on a Delta Contractor’s saw one year.

Fence was it use
Guards were in place, with kickback prawls in place

Cutting 1.5” solid foam board for a concrete wall pour. Board got jambed inplace by a prawl getting bent in towards the spliiter guard. turnoff the saw, blade still free-wheeling along…..tip of the tooth caught my index fingernail about halfway up the nail….

Left Index Finger is 1/8” shorter ( now) the the right one. Not a Recommended way to trim a fingernail. Flap on end was getting in the way, spat it out, wrapped the finger up good to prevent leaks, and returneed to saw more boards. It was sore for a few days, though. No stiches, nothing was there to stitch back on anyway. Pouring “crete, no time to dawdle around with a bad finger….

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

1939 posts in 3367 days


#24 posted 05-30-2014 05:51 PM

Sooner or later a second of inattention will result in a saw operator making a minor mistake. That’s why safe sawing technique uses redundant measures to protect the user. If a finger is jerked three inches towards the blade and your hand is 6” away with a push board between that’s still three inches of difference between a scare and an amputation.

If one safety measure fails, there needs to be at least one additional precaution preventing an accident. Never rely upon one thing to prevent injury (looks dangerous but I’ll be careful).

If a person feeds the board straight, doesn’t put fingers in the cutting path and uses properly cured wood with no internal stress, there won’t be any accidents. However, if the board is twisted slightly (a wasp flies at the operator’s face) or the operator shifts his fingers an inch over (last cut of the day) or the board has reaction wood an accident can easily occur.

In such a situation, who will be unharmed? The guy using a fence, pushstick and riving knife or the guy with both hands on the board two inches from the blade and no riving knife or fence?

-- See my work at http://altaredesign.com

View EPJartisan's profile

EPJartisan

1123 posts in 4176 days


#25 posted 05-30-2014 08:57 PM

I’m not making any excuse.. there are many levels of expertise, each of us find our own methods and change them when we get more confident and learn new ways to get the result we want. There are those of us who love wood and those of us that love tools. I love wood. A blade is a blade, be it spinning on a motor or in my hand… I control the wood, I know the wood I am using and I take the time to consider all the ways I can get the wood into the shape I need with the tools at hand. Not a single woodworker, no matter how long in practice, is going to say “It’s okay to be sloppy”... and it is best to be safe in every way.

My only advice here is be mindful in your critique within the teaching of unsafe methods…to make sure you are not judging and disrespecting a greater skill level and knowledge level than yours…just because you do not understand why they chose that method. Make no mistake YOU should always be safe.. but I will make the cuts as I am most comfortable and confident…. and I am most confident using my dexterity, my knowledge, and my perceptions as my primary safety tool so I can use my tools to their optimal performance in order to get the result I want. I take risks… and I take these risks very very seriously thank you!

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

View MarcRochkind's profile

MarcRochkind

12 posts in 2485 days


#26 posted 06-22-2014 08:23 PM

shipwright: “Safety is in the software (the operator) not in the hardware ( the saw guards etc.)”

This is an extreme oversimplification. To me, “safety” involves reducing the probability of an accident. There are both “software” and “hardware” steps that one can take. Many hardware steps are simple, don’t compromise efficiency, and may have other benefits. I’m thinking of riving knives, crosscut sleds, good lighting, and things like that. There are many software steps as well (concentration, not working when fatigued, understanding what cuts are potentially dangerous, good technique, etc.)

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