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by steve
posted 07-28-2013 01:56 AM


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TobyC

580 posts in 2935 days


#1 posted 07-28-2013 02:03 AM

So you want a war! Just kidding, I pretty much agree as long as the part at the edge is flat, and the back doesn’t have a twist or a concavity.

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#2 posted 07-28-2013 02:09 AM

Agree…it has to be a “true” use-able tool to begin with…
I flatten all my irons, chisels, but I don’t over anal-ize it.

-- steve/USA

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#3 posted 07-28-2013 02:11 AM

Getting used to a war on every post.
People (in General), not all want to fight. Ha! I admire the guts, but relax…it’s mostly a My shop/Your Shop Opinion, jeez…be cool, :)

This is a Forum…a forum of opinions…onions…lettuce, let us be civil! :)

-- steve/USA

View realcowtown_eric's profile

realcowtown_eric

638 posts in 2996 days


#4 posted 07-28-2013 03:47 AM

Not to argue, but there are applications and there are applications.

Some of which will tolerate a touch of back bevel, and indeed function better with that…
I think of my adzes, where the mere touch of a back bevel allows the “wedge to ease itself up and out, instead of digging in.

The simplistic description of a wedge that steve describes implies that there are equal forces on both sides, but we all know there ain’t…maybe a mere 1/10th of a mm on one side, but an inch or two on the other side. The physics of a simple wedge cannot apply without considering the forces directing that force.

OTOH, if yer paring edge banding off of a panel with a 1/32 veneer, yer back better be absolutely flat.

And if you have to pare a 1/4 mm off of a tenon on an expensive antique undergoing repair, you want to be certain that the first chisel you use has the same characteristics of the one you pick up next, and will cut the same. Easiest to do if the back is flat on each and every chisel. OTOH, you might be able to fuss around with variably sharpened chisels trying to find the one that will follow a flat…till you found one that worked.

Besides, when yer sharpening the chisels, how do you figure out how much out of flat the bottom is, so as to take off the wire edge.

I however appreciate and understand where yer coming from steve, some of my carving tools, adzes, and particularly the power carving tools have a deliberate back-bevel (unflattness) to allow them to defect up instead of down….And when I’m rehabbing old tools, sometimes I just do the best I can, and hope for flatness in future rehabs. There is a law of diminishing returns, and sometimes you just have to accept a less than perfect , but perfectly usable result.

Eric in Cowtown.

-- Real_cowtown_eric

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#5 posted 07-28-2013 04:14 AM

I am simply saying “I” am not SO ANAL about a flat back.
I wish I had the time back for deleting this.
So, I will not watch it no more…have at it.

-- steve/USA

View Bernie's profile

Bernie

422 posts in 3896 days


#6 posted 07-28-2013 04:19 AM

All my chisels have a flat back – never touch the back except for stropping to get the burrs off. Most of my chisel work involves cutting off tenons to the flat surface or cleaning out dado cuts etc… If I encounter work that needs to be done with a beveled edge, I flip the chisel over and use the beveled side. But whatever you do with your chisels or however you want to sharpen them is OK with me. As the old saying goes… “there’s more then one way to skin a cat”.

-- Bernie: It never gets hot or cold in New Hampshire, just seasonal!

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planeBill

506 posts in 3468 days


#7 posted 07-28-2013 05:23 AM

Hell, I just flatten about a 1/4” or so behind the edge and mine work fine. I may stray a bit further but all Im ever really concerned with is just behind the “0” point, call it good..

-- I was born at a very young age, as I grew up, I got older.

View TCCcabinetmaker's profile

TCCcabinetmaker

932 posts in 3414 days


#8 posted 07-28-2013 06:33 AM

eh that’s just one arguement for worrying about flat… truth is it has to do a bit with sharpening to, a chisel isn’t as sharp without a flat line to hone to.

-- The mark of a good carpenter is not how few mistakes he makes, but rather how well he fixes them.

View Tony_S's profile

Tony_S

1460 posts in 4142 days


#9 posted 07-28-2013 09:23 AM

??

You make a post that you know damn well is going to be controversial…..

”…So I’m sure this post will ruffle some feathers with flat back worshipers ”

One person ‘slightly and politely’ disagrees with you…and you snatch up your chisels and stomp off?

”I wish I had the time back for deleting this. So, I will not watch it no more…have at it.”

Bizarre to say the least…..

-- “Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” – Plato

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richardwootton

1701 posts in 3015 days


#10 posted 07-28-2013 11:51 AM

Tony I was thinking the same thing. Looked like someone was hitting the bottle (not to mention any names) when that post came to life! I’m not judging, just blindly speculating… ;)

-- Richard, Hot Springs, Ar -- Galoot In Training

View lj61673's profile

lj61673

271 posts in 3459 days


#11 posted 07-28-2013 12:11 PM

Steve, the reason the back of any blade needs to be flat has nothing to do with a “wedge” or “geometry” or arguing.

It has everything to do with sharpness. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It’s just a physical fact.

So, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, know that making statements that refute scientific fact does not constitute “thinking outside the box”.

Having said that, do whatever YOU thinks works for YOU. Be safe and enjoy….

View 8iowa's profile

8iowa

1591 posts in 4821 days


#12 posted 07-28-2013 12:30 PM

Since it takes two surfaces to make an edge, I flatten and polish the back, but no more than about 3/8 to 1/2 inch. This is also my procedure on plane irons.

Lately, I’ve been sharpening the bevels at 25 degrees and then applying a slight micro bevel. This makes it easier to quickly “dress up” an edge by hand while I’m working.

-- "Heaven is North of the Bridge"

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6932 posts in 3553 days


#13 posted 07-28-2013 04:35 PM

“Steve, the reason the back of any blade needs to be flat has nothing to do with a “wedge” or “geometry” or arguing.

It has everything to do with sharpness. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It’s just a physical fact.”

That was always my understanding….it was tied to the sharpness. Same with plane blades.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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planeBill

506 posts in 3468 days


#14 posted 07-29-2013 12:40 AM

That’s basically what I was saying. It just needs to be flat just behind the edge so you can achieve the theoretical ) 0 radius edge. Take a look at Japanese chisels, there is only a small amount of flat surface in front of the ura and behind the cutting edge.

-- I was born at a very young age, as I grew up, I got older.

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DocK16

1199 posts in 5146 days


#15 posted 07-29-2013 02:15 AM

Sorry but your premise for a flat back as being a reference for choppin and paring is wrong from the start. Fred and lj have it right it all about sharpness and the meeting of two edges. If your back isn’t flat your tool will never be as sharp as it could be. Like Fred said, no argument just fact.

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realcowtown_eric

638 posts in 2996 days


#16 posted 07-30-2013 03:27 AM

Maybe I’m not so sorry that I contributed to this thread with my pragmatic contributions.

It’s interesting to see what comes out of the woodwork!

lj61673 said…. Two points intersecting cannot produce a sharp edge if one of them is not flat. Simple. It’s just a physical fact.

and just where does the physical fact that two points intersect produce a sharp edge (aka known as a line?)

No where in any geometry book that I own do to points intersecting produce a line/edge. Maybe you could point out the basis of that physical fact just to educate me.

and “know that making statements that refute scientific fact does not constitute “thinking outside the box”.

“physical fact” has now been replaced with “scientific fact”

I don’t understand at all!

But neither of them assertions are qualified with data points or references. andneither dogmatic assertions give any reference to pragmatic experience.

Yes there are needs for dead flat backs
Yes there are needs where a dead flat back is a drawback

This is one case where “two points interesecting” do not make a point, they make a Void which could be easily filled in with experiental data.

Cutting tool geometry ihas long been an evolving field, and while in theory it is simplistic geometry, it is so much more than that. The machinists handbook is full of tables of cutting speeds,lubricants, geometry of cutting tools for different materials, and a whack of info that is eye-opening to those that figure a simple saw blade or chisel geometry is “best”

Fact of the matter is that the more you know, the more you know what you don’t know.

Granted you won’t get to first base without the geometric knowledge, but then the application, ah the bottom line ..the application, and using your knowledge and experience to achieve that comes into play.
My clients don’t pay for my theoretical knowledge, they pay for results. My results come from making it work. Therein is the bottom line.

Richard Feynman, a leading physicist in years gone by, seldom read the current literature-as it simply repeated dogma ad-nauseum.

Grasshopper, it’s all in the experience.

Ducking….

Eric in Calgary

-- Real_cowtown_eric

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ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#17 posted 07-30-2013 12:49 PM

Eric,

Didn’t Richard Feynman say:
“If you think you understand tool sharpening, you don’t understand tool sharpening.”

Or maybe I’m misremembering and he was just talking about something simpler like quantum mechanics!

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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PurpLev

8652 posts in 4708 days


#18 posted 07-30-2013 01:24 PM

Chuck – I think the fact that you are not sure makes you qualified to understand sharpening!

and no, you don’t have to have a flat back when you sharpen – I myself stoop over most of the times when I am sharpening my irons – but I can’t stay in that position for a long time.

to the OP – when you say “I” with quotation marks, does it really refer to you? or is that “you”...? ;)

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#19 posted 07-31-2013 02:29 AM

You are much more superior Woodworkers than me.
I surrender. ~ weeping…... :(

-- steve/USA

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lj61673

271 posts in 3459 days


#20 posted 07-31-2013 12:50 PM

Eric, Do you think you could have said less if you had used a few more words?

In saying “two points intersecting” the obvious reference was two edges. I didn’t think that had to be pointed out. Now I know better. By the way, that IS a physical fact as those two edges are actual tangible “physical” objects.

As for the “scientific fact”, that would be a reference to it being proved by actual and trail and error experimentation and measurements. A flat back produces the sharpest straight edge. Period.

If you’re still confused maybe a little more reading on the subject and a lot less pontificating might serve you better.

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ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#21 posted 07-31-2013 01:02 PM

What is the point of this discussion? The OP says “I do flatten a 1/2” of the back”. That is enough for sharpening purposes and is quick and easy to do. I don’t think anyone is arguing against that.

If the point of this is that it is not required to flatten the entire length of the chisel back, I think that most people would agree with that too. I have done some work that was aided by a longer flat portion on the back. In that case, I just used a ruler against the backs of my chisels and choose the flattest one I found.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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PurpLev

8652 posts in 4708 days


#22 posted 07-31-2013 01:29 PM

I agree Chuck, I’m not sure what this is all about. I have yet to find anyone that actually flattened the ENTIRE back of the chisel – most if not all people I know just flatten the leading (near the edge) portion of the back. the OP is a bit vague in what it’s trying to present.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

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lj61673

271 posts in 3459 days


#23 posted 07-31-2013 01:33 PM

I agree, it only has to be flat where it meets the top surface.

I don’t think anyone is advocating flattening the entire back.

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404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 4029 days


#24 posted 07-31-2013 01:38 PM

There is no point. The OP doesn’t get in a sweat flattening chisel backs.

That’s nice/Hakuna Matata.

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ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#25 posted 07-31-2013 07:13 PM

Now I see the point and it is a decimal point.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#26 posted 08-01-2013 01:18 AM

Ha. I work 16 hours a day in my shop, I touch-up my chisels on the go. I use DMT duo sharp plus stones…quick and tidy. I flatten, yes I flatten the 1/2” – 1” lead end of my set…yes it’s flat. But I don’t “worry” about flattening the entire back. I used to use scary, but prefer diamond stones,for longevity of the diamond stone, and the always flatNESS. Some of you are real jerks.

So, say what ya will…and suck my balls Mr. Garrison~

Layta. this thread is dead.

-- steve/USA

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404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 4029 days


#27 posted 08-01-2013 01:21 AM

Well I never…

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Tbolt

65 posts in 2910 days


#28 posted 08-01-2013 01:44 AM

Somebody doesn’t play well with others. LMAO

-- Fumbling and Bumbling Woodworking Todd

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realcowtown_eric

638 posts in 2996 days


#29 posted 08-01-2013 02:03 AM

“hmmm”

-Eric

-- Real_cowtown_eric

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#30 posted 08-01-2013 02:15 AM

I am not a marketing guy. But I am pretty sure that it is a bad idea to have a link on stevensmasterwoodworks.com labeled “Lumberjocks Proud Member” that points to the LJ home page of this thread’s author. That page proudly displays the member’s most recent activity on the site.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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Tony_S

1460 posts in 4142 days


#31 posted 08-01-2013 02:45 AM

I like pie…....

-- “Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” – Plato

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waho6o9

9017 posts in 3636 days


#32 posted 08-01-2013 03:24 AM

Have some pi

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steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#33 posted 08-01-2013 03:30 AM

Thanks for your friendly comments.

-- steve/USA

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tomd

2222 posts in 4830 days


#34 posted 08-01-2013 04:14 AM

Some of my best screwdrivers are chisels.

-- Tom D

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realcowtown_eric

638 posts in 2996 days


#35 posted 08-01-2013 04:32 AM

I know how you feel buddy. I got some friendly comments too!

Eric

-- Real_cowtown_eric

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ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#36 posted 08-01-2013 11:26 AM

Back in the LJ Days Of Yore, this was this point in a thread where the subject of Dove Ice Cream Bars was almost certain to arise.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 4029 days


#37 posted 08-01-2013 12:08 PM

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ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#38 posted 08-01-2013 12:13 PM

Ah renners, that surely brings a tear to the eye.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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lj61673

271 posts in 3459 days


#39 posted 08-01-2013 03:22 PM

“I am not a marketing guy. But I am pretty sure that it is a bad idea to have a link on stevensmasterwoodworks.com labeled “Lumberjocks Proud Member” that points to the LJ home page of this thread’s author. That page proudly displays the member’s most recent activity on the site.”

Not the sharpest chisel in the tool box…..obviously

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8652 posts in 4708 days


#40 posted 08-01-2013 03:29 PM

someone mentioned PIE?

I’ll be bringing the popcorn…

gotta look on the bright side of life sometimes ;)

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View steve's profile

steve

363 posts in 3052 days


#41 posted 08-02-2013 12:41 AM

you guys act like children.

-- steve/USA

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#42 posted 08-02-2013 12:54 AM

When I was a child
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown
The dream is gone
And I have become
Comfortably numb.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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realcowtown_eric

638 posts in 2996 days


#43 posted 08-02-2013 04:42 AM

Pie on the darkside! sounds like more fun for the children! but I pontificate again.

Ah to be a child again and succesfully saw through the support columns of my parents house! Grandpa gave us the saws (still got the box he made), but momma freaked (dad was away in Egypt with UN forces-1958)

Last few days I’m doing exactly that with a sawsall!My shop is a mess, Got a few minutes to clean up a tad, but had to fabricate connections for a device to clean a concrete floor. Within clear site of the power hone (barbarania-another slippery slope)

And if I ever get described as a “children” agin, here or any other place, I’ll be happy to take the comment as a compliment, cause the concept of discovery of new things, attitudes, metholdologies/perspectives never ceases to entrance me. Hey, thanks or helping me re-discover my child-like fascination with tools.

Love tools, the slippery slopes they lead me down, and the interesting characters I meet along the way!

-- Real_cowtown_eric

View Tony_S's profile

Tony_S

1460 posts in 4142 days


#44 posted 08-02-2013 10:48 AM

”Ah to be a child again and successfully saw through the support columns of my parents house! ”

That made me laugh! I got busted by my Mom when I was about 7 or 8 doing my best lumber jack impression.
I got about 2/3rds of the way through a major support post in the basement…with a leather handle Estwing hatchet!

The post is still there as a reminder(new post added)....and I still have the hatchet!

-- “Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” – Plato

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#45 posted 08-02-2013 11:39 AM

This thread is certainly a victory for the minimalists. Who would have ever predicted all these interesting comments on a thread titled ”.” with OP ”.”?

Learn the ways of The Dot. Be The Dot. Surrender your adulthood to The Dot. Long live The Dot.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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Smitty_Cabinetshop

17288 posts in 3678 days


#46 posted 08-02-2013 12:04 PM

I had an Aunt Dot when I was younger that I really liked talking to. She had more to say than ”.”, which probably explains why I liked talking to her.

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. - OldTools Archive -

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#47 posted 08-02-2013 12:18 PM

Yeah, it seems like there used to be a lot more women named Dot and Dottie. I miss the Dots.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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Smitty_Cabinetshop

17288 posts in 3678 days


#48 posted 08-02-2013 12:23 PM

There were more ladies names “Agnes” too, but I don’t want to stray from the OP…

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. - OldTools Archive -

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

3370 posts in 4587 days


#49 posted 08-02-2013 12:31 PM

When I was young, my Mom sold Avon (Dig-Dong). She had a customer named Rose Thorn. Another was named Millie Sparks. That was pretty unremarkable until Millie’s house was struck by lightning and burned down.

-- "Join the chorus if you can. It'll make of you an honest man." - I. Anderson

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waho6o9

9017 posts in 3636 days


#50 posted 08-02-2013 01:38 PM

Dots rocks.

Connect the dots

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