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Dust Colletion

by tommytenspeed
posted 03-16-2012 01:31 PM


36 replies so far

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Mark Shymanski

5623 posts in 4272 days


#1 posted 03-27-2012 03:21 PM

Type in ‘Clear Vue’ in the search tool (upper right corner) and you will get a bunch of posts about this system.

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

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NBeener

4816 posts in 3733 days


#2 posted 03-27-2012 03:25 PM

I think ClearVue, Oneida, and PSI have verrrrry good reputations.

My $0.02.

-- -- Neil

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Grandpa

3263 posts in 3235 days


#3 posted 03-27-2012 03:55 PM

I have bought a Clear Vue and still have it in the box. I haven’t had the time to get it out and assembly things. I looked at the reputation of the different brands and the customer complaints of the different brands. I have not read about a dissatisfied customer from Clear Vue. I have occasionally read about poor customer from some of the others. I looked at eh horse power I could buy from each and the cost. I decided I could buy a Clear Vue 5 hp system for about the same cost that I could buy the same hp from other companies. This is supposed to be one of the best designs available. So, 1) good reputation, 2) no customer complaints, 3) same hp rating or better in most cases, 4)with $200 of the same cost, 5) best design, 6) uses the best filters….why not have the best. No I am not a Clear Vue employ nor do I have any Clear Vue stock. Those are the things I looked at when making my decision. I know other people tell me they have done the same thing for $200 but I think in many cases it was so bad that any relief in their shop was HUGE improvement. I think any improvement is wonderful but is your health worth a little more. My decision. Good luck in your research. Get braced for the piping.

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Manitario

2787 posts in 3442 days


#4 posted 03-27-2012 04:03 PM

I have a Clearvue cyclone and love it. For price/power/design I don’t think you can buy anything comparable to it. My second choice would be a cyclone from PSI; they are also well designed. Personally wouldn’t touch Oneida; I find they are overpriced and their filters are undersized for their machines.
My review of Clearvue:
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2451

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Paul Mayer's profile

Paul Mayer

1081 posts in 3625 days


#5 posted 03-28-2012 01:50 AM

I have a Clear Vue and love it. Their price performance and dust separation are tough to beat. I wrote an extensive review about the setup process and before/after results of CFM measurements at all of my tool ports here: http://www.wwgoa.com/articles/product-reviews/stepping-up-to-better-dust-collection/

-- Paul Mayer, http://youtube.com/c/toolmetrix

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wee3

76 posts in 2831 days


#6 posted 03-28-2012 02:14 AM

I was wondering about oneida air systems myself,guess i know,good luck.

-- BiLL @wee3

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#7 posted 03-28-2012 02:50 AM

Geeze, and here I thought for the last 10+ years my Oneida cyclone was doing a great job. If only I would have known…

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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cabmaker

1745 posts in 3368 days


#8 posted 03-28-2012 03:15 AM

I have an oneida. no problems. Runs for several hours each day. As stated about the filter being too small, I couldnt tell you as Im not a cyclone scientist but I will say that they (oneida) did their homework on there products. As far as comparison to others in price, cant help you, I wanted a good one so I bought one. enjoy!

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kizerpea

775 posts in 2927 days


#9 posted 03-28-2012 12:14 PM

Got tired of all the hype about collectors an built my own..in my projects…works just fine..

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#10 posted 03-28-2012 01:15 PM

This is my Oneida cyclone, I retrofitted a late model blower assembly to the early model cyclone so I would have the late model filter. It originally had the internal filter which I agree was too small. But I personally don’t think that this filter is “too small”. Performance improved when I did this.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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ruel24

79 posts in 2852 days


#11 posted 03-28-2012 08:21 PM

I’m sorry, but the clearvue just looks like a collection of parts you could get together yourself and make for a lot less. All that MDF that it uses instead of STEEL looks like it’s overpriced, to me. Until I see a definitive unbiased 3rd party comparison that says Clearvue is much better and worth what they ask, I’m going to doubt the validity. I’m pretty sure that Oneida has done a lot of R&D on their product. I’d like to see a head to head comparison of a 5HP Clearvue, like the CV1800 against a comparable 5HP Oneida, like the Pro 2000.

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Grandpa

3263 posts in 3235 days


#12 posted 03-29-2012 03:09 AM

The unit pictured above is $1895 and it has one filter on it. The Clear Vue CV1800 is $1476 with 2 filters on it. I can’t say how many inches of filtering media are in the Oneida. I got the Clear Vue shipped free to my door. It does have some MDF in it. I read Bill Pendtz’ article on the internet and I think he has done a lot of research. He sold his design to Clear Vue for the separator. I would not say that Oneida is a bad collection system but I did read about someone that had a bad time with customer service and it was on LJ as I recall. I think Penn State has built good units also but I also read someone’s complaint and thought I didn’t need that.
Tommy just asked if anyone had any experience with the Clear Vue system. I don’t know if he has come across a used one or if he just found it listed on the internet or what he has found but I don’t think anyone has slammed the Oneida. They are simply comparing the filters and we aren’t sure which model had the small filter. I just looked at the Grizzly and saw that the 3 hp cost about the same as the 5 hp CV1800. When I was in the Grizzly store I was looking at the 2 hp and the 3 hp sitting on the show room floor. a customer walked by and said get the bit one the first time. I had to come back and get a larger one. Made me think some more.

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#13 posted 03-29-2012 04:40 AM

LOL Grandpa, sorry to say, you just showed that you don’t really know a lot regarding Oneida, so you just keep it up. It is amusing.

That unit that is pictured when I bought it new was somewhere around $650 The comparable unit to that one today may be the V-System 1500 that lists for $1,186. Far cry from your $1895 you mentioned. Or maybe the 2 HP Super Dust Gorilla that lists for $1475 but its motor is bigger the unit pictured above.

The only one that Oneida sells for $1895 is in their Pro line, the Pro 2000 HEPA which is meant for professional shops (hence the Pro in its name) and not for the home one man shop woodworker That thing does 1973 Max. CFM! The Clear Cue only does 1442 CFM, so how can you compare them?

So try comparing apples and apples.

I’ll try and do that. The Clear Vue specs it’s CFM at 1442. That would match up to Oneida’s 2.5 HP Super Dust Gorilla HEPA which specs out at 1440 CFM and lists for $1635. That’s only $159 more then the Clear Vue. And guess what? The Oneida is constructed out of all metal, no MDF involved. Hmmm. Maybe that’s why the Oneida costs a little more. Ya think?

Ok so they’re both in the 1440 CFM range. But hey! Oneida does it with half the HP thus it uses less electricity and costs you less to run. That might be a plus. And it might also mean that Oneida has a more efficient blower assembly design and impeller design. Could it be Oneida knows what they’re doing?? Raw HP doesn’t mean more CFM

And the filter. Doesn’t really matter if it’s 4 times as big. What matters is the effective surface area of the filter material and that is a factor of how the pleats in the filter are designed. So yes the filter may be physically twice but as far as its filter area they both may be the same. Can’t tell by looking.

Now, Oneida supplies a fan curve for that cyclone, I couldn’t seem to find one for the Clear Vue. I’d like to see it to compare so if anyone knows where it is please let me know. So both cyclones spec out at he same CFM, but that doesn’t really mean much because manufacturers tend to spec out the maximum value and that doesn’t show its operating curve. So without a fan curve you don’t know if you get the CFM with it connected to 40 feet of pipe or only 2 feet of pipe. A fan curve will tell you that.

So in comparing these two cyclones, the Clear Vue and the 2.5 HP Super Dust Gorilla HEPA, I can’t tell you which is better. So I’m not going to. And I’m certainly not going to do it by how it looks or how much it cost. Get me a fan curve for the Clear Vue and I’ll be able to tell which will perform better using a given diameter and length of pipe attached.

But I will say if I’m buying something for $1500 and I can spend 10% more and get all metal construction, you can bet I wood. (Pun intended.)

And, I would wonder why it takes the Clear Vue 5HP to get the same CFM that the Oneida gets with a mere 2.5HP. That makes me think the design isn’t as good.

I’m going to try and get the fan curve for the Clear Vue and we’ll see. If they’re up front like Oneida is they will have one and provide it.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#14 posted 03-29-2012 01:07 PM

Well that really didn’t take long, see Clear Vue’s reply below to my request for a Fan Curve graph for their cyclone.

Clear Vue doesn’t have a fan curve for that cyclone. So you can’t determine which cyclone may perform better. So, it appears no testing was done on the Clear Vue cyclone by Clear Vue to determine CFM vs Static Pressure and produce a Fan Curve graph so that the actual performance of the Clear Vue cyclone can be known. Or they don’t want to share it.

That always makes me suspect when manufacturers are not willing to share that performance information be it cyclone or dust collector.

Without a Fan Curve graph you can’t determine air velocity, CFM, based on duct diameter, length and its resulting static pressure for a given duct work design.

So, in my previous comparison which one is really better? No one can say based on facts.

In light of this, I would rule out the Clear Vue and go with the Oneida because all the information is available to determine performance, air velocity, CFM, etc. for a given duct work design. And pay the extra $159 to get an all metal design, no wood, no plastic involved, thank you very much.

You won’t be shooting in the dark and hoping it will perform well, you will know how it will perform.

Good morning Curtis:

Unfortunately we do not have a fan curve at this time. That being said, there is a wealth of information available on our product, including a static pressure calculator, on Bill Pentz’s website at http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm.

Please don’t hesitate to ask if I can help with anything else!

Take care,
Cathy

Clear Vue Cyclones
8633 South 212th Street
Kent, Washington 98031
1-888-299-0221, ext. 700
www.clearvuecyclones.com

So I did reply to that message, explaining what I said above, without a Fan Curve graph the performance for a given duct work design can’t be determined. I also asked if I missed the Fan Curve graph for it on Bill Pentz’s site. We’ll see what they say.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#15 posted 03-29-2012 01:34 PM

The engineer in me always wants to base things on facts. Not perception, not on rumor, or color or shape or even price. Until I know the facts, the specifications.

Only then can you know if any difference in price is worth the difference in price. And worth it to you.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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jmos

916 posts in 2929 days


#16 posted 03-29-2012 02:40 PM

Curt,

As an engineer (Chemical) I agree with you about data. Unfortunately, I don’t believe any of the companies out there are providing enough data to really compare. I don’t know if you’ve spent any time on Bill Pentz’s dust collection pages, but he has nothing good to say about most cyclone manufacturers. He brings up a lot of issues that, if true, make the provided curve meaningless (falsified data, data collected with the motor running well over rated amperage). Also keep in mind that air movement is only part of the game, separation efficiency of the cyclone and the quality of the air coming out of the filters is equally important. Of course, Bill is now selling his design through ClearVue, so he does have a dog in the fight too.

The case he lays out for the development of the current commercial system is interesting and I find somewhat compelling. Like you, I like the idea of being able to buy a mostly pre-built system, made of metal. I’m a bit turned off by the erector set feeling of the ClearVue. It seems to me the ClearVue uses the construction method it does to keep costs down. But I also find it hard to believe that Oneida can move as much air with a 2.5HP blower, and get good separation as ClearVue can with a 5hp blower.

Given the fact that Bill gives away his cyclone design so you can make it yourself, and has taken the time to share all the information he has, makes me all the more inclined to believe what he is saying.

All the vendors have every reason in the world to to make their systems seems better, and with out any independent testing to verify, we really can’t know. I would really love to see one of the woodworking magazines put a series of these systems through real world performance tests, and actually measure air flow and exhaust air quality. Until then I don’t think we can really compare apples to apples.

-- John

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#17 posted 03-29-2012 04:38 PM

John, I hear where you’re coming from and I too don’t always believe what manufacturers say either. But here’s where I’m coming from in this particular case with Oneida. Here is the Fan Curve for the 2.5HP cyclone I mentioned.

It clearly shows that this cyclone will do 1440 CFM at 2.3” of sataic pressure. At what static pressure does the Clear Vue do its 1442 CFM? They don’t say. 0”? Not very useful. That be open inlet. No duct work connected. And that’s what a lot of manufactures do to make theirs look good. Is it 4”? Don’t know, that would be good. But you don’t know. With the Oneida because they supply a Fan Curve you do know. Reasonably at least, your miles may vary somewhat.

So, take my dust collection installation, I know the static pressure at the cyclones inlet is 6” when the gate for the table saw is open and that is by measurement. So using the above fan curve I can see that I can expect around 1100 CFM. Now knowing the CFM and the duct dimensions I can calculate air velocity and know if it is enough to keep the material suspended in the air stream.

Now, if that fan curve were inaccurate, don’t you think someone would call them out on it? I do. Some would like nothing better to then show them making false claims. No one has. And I doubt anyone will. Why? Because it is as accurate as can be within reason. And I believe Oneida knows that so they don’t provide inflated claims like a lot fof manufactures do..

And yes, filters are a whole different issue and a very important one at that. Clear Vue states their filter has a MERV 10 rating, Oneida’s has a MERV 16+ rating. Which do you think is better? You can upgrade the Clear Vue to MERV 15, but the Oneida is still slightly better.

These are the facts as I know them and can be verified by looking at the specs that both manufacturers provide.

You’re right, we’re not be able to compare apples to apples if manufactures are unwilling to provide a fan curve that can be verified by independent verification. And that could be you or me verifying it if we had one and had the tools to do the testing. The testing isn’t that difficult and I have the tools to do it. And have done it with what I have.

When a manufacturer cannot supply a fan curve I highly suspect that it is because they know their unit will not fair well. That may not always be the case but it sure is suspicious to me. It’s the old put up or shut up. Put up that fan curve and let us see it so your claims can be verified one way or another.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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Grandpa

3263 posts in 3235 days


#18 posted 03-29-2012 05:04 PM

Blankman you are correct I only know what I read or have personally experienced. In this case it has to be what I have read. With that said Rule24 mentioned the Oneida Pro 2000 and said he would like to see a comparison. I looked it up on the internet and that is the price it posted. Again I only know what I read. Where did you learn so much about the pricing on the Pro 2000 and today’s prices.

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Manitario

2787 posts in 3442 days


#19 posted 03-29-2012 05:14 PM

I’m not sure why this discussion seems to irritate you so much Curt.
I spent about 4 months researching all of the different cyclone options before I bought my Clearvue last year. It’s not for everyone, certainly you have to enjoy some of the tinkering process involved in assembling it; I know that there were times when I was assembling it that I wished I’d bought a preassembled unit! Clearvue used to have a fan curve up on their site; they had gone through the trouble of having their 1400 model independantly tested at a university research lab. They no longer sell the 1400, it was upgraded to the 1800 but I imagine that the curve is similar as the HP rating, impellar size and cyclone design are the same. From what I can remember, Clearvue and the higher HP PSI cyclones had the highest CFM at higher static pressures. My calculated static pressure at the end of my longest run is b/t 8-9, which would put the CFM below the recommended value if I had the “Super Dust Deputy” (my target was a CFM over 800). The 3.5HP PSI Tempest makes almost 1100CFM at a static pressure of 9, as I recall, the Clearvue was similar.
I can’t compare impellar size (which is the primary reason a DC can make high CFM at high static pressure) as Oneida doesn’t list the impellar size for their cyclones. The impellar on the Clearvue is 15”. As for filter size, the Clearvue uses 2 Merv 15 rated filters (I upgraded) from Wynn Environmental, providing 600 sq inches of surface area compared with Oneida’s 110.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#20 posted 03-29-2012 05:20 PM

Grandpa, Oneida’s web site.

When I was re-doing my dust collection system for the 4th time I was d*mned determined to do it right because I did not want to do it a 5th time. It wasn’t where I wanted it to be and doing what I wanted it to do. I had a basic understanding of fluid dynamics from college, air, liquid, same dynamics, so I got all the material I could get my hands on and read it. Including industrial design books. And I read. And I asked the experts questions. I now have a good understanding of what it takes to make a system work well.

It was pointed out to me that if I spent $45 more and bought the 3HP Dust Gorilla verses the 2.5HP one I would get 1225 CFM pulling from my table saw. Wow. I never planned to ever upgrade my cyclone now that it is working very well but I tell you that is tempting.

And I should mention, I believe Oneida uses US Made Baldor motors. Clear Vue uses Leeson, which is a good motor but Baldor are better. I think I heard from a friend that used to work at Leeson, their headquarters is just North of Milwaukee, that their motors aren’t made here any more. And that could also be a factor in Oneida’s higher cost and IMO should be a factor in the comparison. Be interesting to compare like horsepowers between the two and see what the difference in cost is.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#21 posted 03-29-2012 05:43 PM

Rob, I’m not irritated at all, just don’t like to see the Oneida bashing all the time based on perceptions and not facts, so, I just try and provide the facts. I am an engineer by education, I deal with facts, and I am very direct in my presentation of them I’m told. So sometimes I know I don’t come across real well, sorry ‘bout that.

That Tempest is impressive, and they provide a lot of specs. Even the filter area. My hat’s off to them. That looks like a really nice unit and the price is reasonable. If I were looking today I would consider it, looks like I’d get 1400 CFM with it. Wow. And the inlets on the side I need it to be. When I bought mine there weren’t the choices there are today, no Penn State, no Clear Vue, no Laguna, etc. Now the choices are many and IMO decisions should be based on facts not perceptions.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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Manitario

2787 posts in 3442 days


#22 posted 03-29-2012 06:04 PM

No problem Curt! I wish more woodworkers would look at the DC facts and make an informed choice about what they are buying! There is too much “This DC is great because it works for me…” rather than any sort of process to look at the fan curves/filter size etc. I agree, the Tempest is a nice looking machine. It never seems to come up in DC conversations but I’d be seriously tempted to buy one if I had to do it again. It is good that more an more manufacturers seem to be getting serious about giving ww decent choices for DC’s.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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Grandpa

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#23 posted 03-30-2012 01:02 AM

I can’t say about the hp differences on the Baldor vs the Leeson but the Leeson on my unit says it is made in the U.S. I don’t believe I ever bashed Oneida in anything I said. Tommy asked if anyone had any experience with the Clear Vue and he got some responses. You went ballistic and bashed all the others.
http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=XXK200001H&CatId=%7BF5F10613-9BC7-46DE-A39D-719E7DC
This is where I found the $1895 price. I just read it. I don’t know. I have never touched an Oneida. I did say I thought I could remember a LJ that had called them and another called Penn State and both reported poor customer service. Other than that I don’t have a gripe about them. They were my second choice but htat made me change my mind.

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ben10

42 posts in 2948 days


#24 posted 03-30-2012 01:58 AM

I will be installing a dc in my 1200 sq ft shop soon. I’m considering the Clear Vue & Oneida also. In my research, I read somewhere (I don’t remember where) that the 5hp Leeson operated like a 3hp. I assume it had to do with the CFM? Or maybe it takes a 5hp motor to operate the 15” fan? I’ll have to backtrack and try to find the web site I read that on. Anyway, I think I’m set on the Clear Vue.

-- Ben

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jmos

916 posts in 2929 days


#25 posted 03-30-2012 11:36 AM

Ben – it would be interesting to see where you saw that. I’d wager a very small sum of money that it was related to the fact that PSI and Ondeida claim they can get a much flow out of their 3hp systems as ClearVue gets from their 5hp system. Nice if it’s true, but given that the impellers are similar, I find it very hard to believe. Either that or ClearVue is using a lot more work in separating, leaving a lot less dust to hit the filters. Possible, but hard for us to determine.

Some independent testing of these systems would really be useful. I sent an emailr to FWW asking them if they were going to do more testing. If other subscribers requested this as well, maybe they’ll make a large tool test out of it.

-- John

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KEP

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#26 posted 03-30-2012 12:40 PM

I have a JET DC1100 that I connect to one machine at a time with 4 inch hose. I think it works reasonably well when the filter is clean; however the effeciency drops off quickly as the filter fills with dust.

I also am looking to upgrade my system and have been researching the mountains of data available on various web-sites.

I suspect that most cyclones currently being offered are quite effecient when their filters are clean and the ducting is correctly configured. PSI advertise increased filter capacity and I wonder if they use large capacity filters to compensate for less effecient cyclone dust separation.

Other factors being equal then the best system will be the one with the best dust separation resulting in sustained high airflow thru the filter. The reviews that speak of small amounts of dust being found downstream of the filter may be misleading if a larger percentage of dust is being retained in the filter. A more telling test might be to somehow measure the amount of dust between the cyclone and the filter.

-- Ken

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ruel24

79 posts in 2852 days


#27 posted 03-30-2012 03:17 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but HP of the motor has little to do with anything. It’s the RPM the motor turns the impeller. HP is a matter of how resistant the motor is to bogging down under load. If the 3HP motor doesn’t strain to obtain the desired RPM rating, spinning the impeller’s mass, then 5HP shouldn’t give you any more suction. Obviously, a 5HP motor could spin a larger impeller with more mass more easily. But, I believe the 3HP Oneida and the 5HP Clearvue both use 15” impellers? Oneida uses an aluminum impeller, and this could reduce mass and allow the 3HP motor to be efficient enough. That, and Oneida claims their impellers are balanced to an ISO standard on 2 planes, like aircraft turbines. This could make them much easier to spin.

Also, the length of the Clearvue filter is less of a concern. At some point in the size of the filter, there are diminishing returns. The length of the Clearvue filter could be nothing but overkill. If the Oneida can breath all it needs to breath in a filter that is 110 sq. ft. of filter area, what would a 300 sq. ft. filter do for it? Nothing. Unless the filter size is the bottleneck, adding more filter size doesn’t necessarily give you more suction.

I just don’t like a cyclone made of plastic and MDF that costs anywhere near the price of one that’s made of nice steel. I just think that their margins have to be pretty high, considering the materials used.

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#28 posted 03-30-2012 05:21 PM

ruel, dead on on both points.

Increasing HP gets you absolutely nothing, it’s the RPM, assuming the HP is sized properly to start with.

Now. if the motor were let’s say a 2.5 HP 1725 RPM motor and you replaced it with a 5HP 3450 RPM motor that would get you something. And the reason the HP doubles in this example is because torque in inversely proportional to RPM.

And same thing on the filter, once you get past a point there are diminishing returns. About the only thing I can think of is you might be able to go longer between having to clean it. That’s a maintenance issue not a design issue as long as it’s designed for the air flow requirements.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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jmos

916 posts in 2929 days


#29 posted 03-30-2012 06:03 PM

I’m curious where you get the size of the impeller for the Oneida systems? I’ve looked all over their web site and I can’t find that anywhere.

Yes, these are all direct impeller to motor shaft mount systems, so they are all turning at the same speed. If they are the same impeller sizes, either the Oneida motor is too small or the ClerVue is too big. Bill Pentz does talk about systems that were tested and the motors were running way over the amp rating to get the advertised flows. Without some independent testing, it’s hard for us to know. Same with filter area; 100ft2 for Oneida and 300ft2 for ClearVue; is Oneida too small or is ClearVue overkill?

Do any of the cyclone owners out there have the ability to measure their airflow, motor amps, and static pressure of their systems? I’d love to see more data in a real shop. I thought it was odd that FWW didn’t publish any data with the analysis they did recently. They showed how flow dropped off, but nothing on measured flow versus advertised flow. Nothing on static pressure or motor amps.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing Oneida. I’m currently running a Powermatic DC that I move between machines as I go; I’d love to be able to buy a portable Dust Gorilla or SMART dust collector and be able to get the air flow without having to install ductwork. I’m just not convinced I believe their advertising.

I hear you about the ClearVue materials. As I mentioned above, I’m not nuts for the overall feel of their system either. It would be nice for them to have a more rugged alternative. What I keep going back and forth about is whether the Oneida system actually does what it says, with smaller motor and filter stack, in which case I like them better, or if ClearVue has a better design and performance, and you really need the extra HP and FT2 to work properly.

-- John

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BlankMan

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#30 posted 03-30-2012 06:45 PM

Just adding, the size of the impeller is not the only factor involved so even when the impellers are the same size that doesn’t necessarily mean much.

Aerodynamics’s of the design is a key factor thus smaller well designed impellers can move more air then bigger poorly designed ones.

John and yeah, I have a spreadsheet of operating parameters of my system. Velocity pressure, static pressure, air velocity, CFM, etc. the whole nine yards. Not motor amps though, didn’t think or feel it necessary to measure that but I could. Question is, where is that spreadsheet. Did that 3-4 years ago to confirm the duct work design used with the cyclone. I remember air velocity was over the 4000 mark, one of my main concerns, but don’t remember much else. If I can’t find it I could do it again. Bottom line it worked otherwise I would have kept working on it and I didn’t have to.

And doing these measurements takes in all kinds of factors most people don’t realize. Air density, barometric pressure, temperature, etc.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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jmos

916 posts in 2929 days


#31 posted 03-30-2012 09:11 PM

Curt, given that they are both open impeller designs, could some slight differences in the vanes really make a 200% difference in the motor requirements to get the same flow (2.5hp vs 5hp)? Seems hard to believe. Most of my experience with compressors and expanders is large industrial machinery (hundreds to thousands of HP) where vendors are scratching for a 1% performance difference, so maybe I’m off base.

I also spent years as an instrument engineer, so I know precisely what goes in to taking the measurements. I know I don’t have the hardware to do it properly, and most folks don’t. It’s outstanding that you do.

If you can find the data, I’d love to see it. Honestly. No sarcasm. I would really like to see some impartial data on how you laid out your system and how the flow and pressures worked out. As I mentioned in a previous post, I’d be thrilled to convince myself I could do the job right with a 2.5 or 3 HP Oneida system. I’d order it on the spot.

I think posting that sort of data would be really helpful to those of us that are looking at cyclones, but are confounded by the conflicting data.

-- John

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BlankMan

1490 posts in 3912 days


#32 posted 03-30-2012 09:37 PM

John, You bring up a good point, 200%, never thought of it in that sense.

Actually, overall, I was not satisfied with that data and if I can’t find it I really don’t care because I’ve been kind of wanting to do it over.

Placement of the pitot tube was all wrong but I wanted to take the readings near the cyclones inlet. Unfortunately to do that so I could measure all the gates one open at a time the pitot tube was way too close to a wye upstream and way to close to the cyclone downstream. Made for a lot of turbulence which manifested as the velocity pressure reading bouncing around. So I took the high and the low and averaged it. I don’t think that was a good way to do it but all I had.

So, how I wanted to redo it was to take a 5’ piece of duct and mount the pitot tube in it so I have the recommended spacing upstream and downstream and then connect it to the ends of my two main runs and measure. And maybe also use straightening vanes in it but they can be a restriction also. That would tell me what the maximum CFM was on each main but not what each machine is getting. Maybe with the exception of the table saw since that the last thing on one main and does not reduce in size to the cabinet. If I do it I’ll measure motor current and compare it to the nameplate value.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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Manitario

2787 posts in 3442 days


#33 posted 03-31-2012 03:41 AM

John; There is a static pressure calculator on Bill Pentz’s site. It gives at least a rough approximation of what your DC will have to handle. I spent a lot of time planning out the config. of my shop and comparing the estimated static pressures with the CFM curves from the various DC manufacturer sites. As for the dust separation ability of Clearvue; (I can’t comment on other manufacturers because I only have a Clearvue!) I still only have a very small handful of dust in the filter clean out after emptying the 30 gallon bin about 12 times. The basis behind using a larger filter is to allow optimal airflow through the filter, especially as it builds up a “dust cake”. Some build up of dust on the filter is actually desirable; it assists in the dust filtering. Manufacturers refer to this as “seasoning” of the filter. If the filter is small, the “seasoning” begins to interfere with airflow. The larger the filter, the less of a problem this is. As well, eg. 1800 CFM of air and dust hitting a 50 sq. inch filter will wear it out a lot faster than moving 1800 CFM through a 300 or 600sq inch filter.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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ben10

42 posts in 2948 days


#34 posted 04-02-2012 02:17 PM

John,
I finally found the site I read about the motor hp…it is on another forum relating to a clear vue review. Here’s the link. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?23538-Cyclone-Which-one-ClearVue-won It’s post number 9 btw.
I’m not naive and don’t always believe everything I read, but if what he says is true, it might be a consideration to some. The post is 7 yrs old on sawmillcreek and not sure if it still applies to the current clearvue product, but I assume it does.

-- Ben

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Milo

869 posts in 3878 days


#35 posted 04-02-2012 02:36 PM

hA! Build a Frankenduster and have yur own fun…. ;)

-- Beer, Beer, Thank God for Beer. It's my way of keeping my mind fresh and clear...

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jmos

916 posts in 2929 days


#36 posted 04-02-2012 03:59 PM

Ben – that’s an interesting comment in that thread “The Leeson 5 hp is compressor duty rated. I understand it is acutally more like a 3 hp for real world comparrisons. Jim.”

According to Leeson’s site their compressor motor is just designed for compressor/blower applications. It doesn’t say anything about 5hp not performing as a real 5hp motor. I’ve been searching Google for a while now and I can’t find anything on this.

Is anyone familiar with compressor rated motors not providing name plate rated power?

Leesons detail page for the ClearVue CV1800 5hp motor is here: http://www.leeson.com/leeson/searchproduct.do;jsessionid=EC2E05BAC77E5F531A578049EFCBBC9F?invoke=viewProductDetails&motorNo=120554.00&productType=

Do any of our esteemed electrical experts see something interesting?

-- John

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