LumberJocks

All Replies on Sheer Cut Carbide Turning Tools -- Harrison vs. Hunter vs. Other?

  • Advertise with us
View Lazyman's profile

Sheer Cut Carbide Turning Tools -- Harrison vs. Hunter vs. Other?

by Lazyman
posted 05-02-2019 01:13 PM


26 replies so far

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1553 posts in 2115 days


#1 posted 05-02-2019 01:34 PM

Nathan, put in your search engine “Aircraft Counterbores Short length”. All you have to do is get the diameters of the carbides you’re gonna use, and purchase a counterbore to match. Then tap the hole to match the screw, and it’s all centered like a professional did it. .............. Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#2 posted 05-02-2019 01:54 PM

Thanks for the tip Jerry. I will look into that. In the round carbide tools I’ve seen the round recess is milled to match the taper of the blade. Any concerns about cutting the recess with straight sides? I can grind the front profile to match the cutter’s taper easily enough but not sure it is possible to mill the taper against the handles side without a milling machine or something.

EDIT: And any thoughts about the kind of steel to use? Can I just use mild steel or do I need an alloy that is a little stiffer?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1553 posts in 2115 days


#3 posted 05-02-2019 11:10 PM

Nathan, as long as the diameter of the recess is over the size of the cutter, who cares if there is a taper to match the carbide.
A little history. I broke my neck back in 2009-2010. After it healed, when hollowing any item in normal forward rotation, my neck always hurt afterwards because of the way I had to do it. After getting a reversible lathe, all my hollowing is in reverse.
If you know anything about the older Sorby Swan neck tools, the bar is half round until it goes into the handle.. The steel cutter was a pain to sharpen, so I started using carbide. Then I got my reversible lathe. When I want to turn reverse using that tool, I remove the carbide cutter from the normal position, flip it over, and now can cut in reverse. The base of the carbide is sitting on the flat of the bar and the cutting edge is up whatever the carbide thickness is from the flat. Just adjust the tool rest height.

As far as steel goes for make at tool, I’ve been using 1018 CR or 4140 Chrome Molly. Diameter or size should be smaller that the cutting surface. If you use a 1/2” diameter or square, the area that you set the cutter should be smaller than the cutter in order to be able to cut. Below is set up for forward turning. The bar is 1/2” and the carbide is 5/8 OD. The second picture is a side view.
Forward

Forward

Next is set up for reverse turning. Also notice the grinding I did on the end of the tool. I had to do that to clear the edge of the inside surface for some pretty small hollowforms I was turning.
Reverse

Reverse

Reverse

Whatever tool shaft you choose to make, if it is a swan neck, you can either counterbore one face, and use the pilot hole to complete the other side. Tap to fit the screw you use, and now you can forward or reverse turn just by swapping the position of the cutter rather than having a right hand tool or left hand tool. This last picture below shows what I did. The larger tool has a 5/8” bar. I had to grind the end to get clearance for the cutter. The smaller one at the bottom of the picture hasn’t been tapped yet. When I have a desperate need for it, all I have to do is tap it and put a cutter on it. I made it for my Scruples, but found a temporary way around not needing it. One day. Hope this helps.

....... Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#4 posted 05-03-2019 04:08 AM

That’s a clever trick for turning in reverse with the swan necked tool. I’ll definitely remember that one for future reference. Thanks for the info.

I will have to go price some appropriate steel to see how much it will really save me to try to make my own tools. When I was looking for some tools steel for a plane iron I was making a few months back, the prices were crazy high, presumably because of the steel tariffs. I do like to make tools but the full sized Harrison specialties tools are about $55 each for the straight shafted tools , including the carbide and screw, so the steel will have to be significantly cheaper than that to justify making them myself.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12796 posts in 2765 days


#5 posted 05-03-2019 04:12 PM

I agree with Jerry, carbide tools are easy to make and I don’t know if you even need that little cut out around the blade. Joe in Tennessee made some and has a blog on it, he used aluminum bar.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

22930 posts in 3068 days


#6 posted 05-03-2019 06:41 PM

EWT? Easy Wood Tool may have what you are looking for, as well…

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View Jack Lewis's profile

Jack Lewis

440 posts in 1463 days


#7 posted 05-03-2019 11:13 PM

As one example Speedy metal has 1/2” x 36” square 1018 CR for $13.64. That is enough to make 3 tools, you mentiond AZ Carbide for the cutters and making your own handles is a fun project. I have yet to counter bore to set the cutter, I leave it rest on the bar and have NO problem with it turning, etc. A copper 1” fitting for a ferrule and you are all set. You can make 6 tools your self for what the big boys sell theirs for.
Go man go!

-- "PLUMBER'S BUTT! Get over it, everybody has one"

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#8 posted 05-04-2019 10:27 AM


I agree with Jerry, carbide tools are easy to make and I don t know if you even need that little cut out around the blade. Joe in Tennessee made some and has a blog on it, he used aluminum bar.

- Woodknack

For a regular round cutter, that makes sense. Based upon the videos I have seen for the shear cut finisher, you actually roll the tool towards the direction of the cut to sort of ride the bevel (see links in the OP) so it is best to use a round bar. At a minimum it will require me to grind a flat on the end to attach the cutter and it would probably be best to also round the tip of the bar at the 7 degree angle to match the profile of the cutter to get maximum support of the cutter as well.

I also want a 55 degree detail tool and while I am at it, perhaps a 90 degree detail tool like this. I can see that it probably does not matter that much if a round cutter has a round recess but it would seem to me that the detailers would best best to have the recess index the cutter so it cannot turn while cutting.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View moke's profile

moke

1379 posts in 3161 days


#9 posted 05-04-2019 02:33 PM

I have made many carbide tools and one, I bought the bar and insert, ie: I have the 55 degree tool you have shown. Then of course I made the handle and used copper tubing for the ring.

I suppose it does not make a difference if the cutter sat on top, but it looks and I would think would perform better, in terms of being protected, nestled into the bar. It is easy to find steel, whether it be the bar stock mentioned by Jack or just robbing other tools….ie pry bars from Harbor Freight. Just work it slowly with files. I would work it, then when I got close I would check it with a small machinist square.

I have had a metal lathe for a while, and recently got a milling table for it, so I won’t have to file anymore. But I made a bunch of tools for some friends and relatives without it…..it is great, as you can make yourself tools for next to nothing to fit a variety of different cutters. I have a variety of the Easy Wood and then some of the larger inserts, like the much larger 18mm round, that Captain Eddie sold. Most recently I made a selection of tools that are fixed to use the negative rake cutters. I also made some that are longer and beefy for being aggressive with bowls. While I am not sold that they are the only tools for turning, ( I still prefer a skew and bowl gouge) they work well and are another weapon in your arsenal for better work, and you can make them cheap and have some fun doing it.

-- Mike

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12796 posts in 2765 days


#10 posted 05-04-2019 04:12 PM

I haven’t used a shear cut carbide but I dislike the round bar carbides I made, they roll too easy and cause nasty catches. I planned on remaking them in square bar, Joe even sent me one, but I’ve been using gouges except for roughing.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View bigJohninvegas's profile

bigJohninvegas

604 posts in 1847 days


#11 posted 05-04-2019 09:03 PM

I use Jimmy Clewes mate tools, and the Mike Jackofsky 5/8 hollow pro for large projects.
I have used a few brands of carbide while taking classes. And never really cared for them. Never really liked having to roll the tool to make it work. But when I took an interest in hollow forms, carbide became necessary.
I started with the hollow pro tool for working on hollow forms. And never really considered carbide for bowls and such. Then Jimmy Clewes came up with his mate tool. I was taking a class with him at the time the tool was being designed, and got to demo the prototype. It works totally different from the other tools I had used.
The bar is flat, and is kept flat on the tool rest. No need to roll the tool to make it cut. And the tip is designed to not self feed. Very friendly tool to use.
Like you, I prefer HSS tools for most work, and finish cuts. But carbide does have its uses.
Both tools use the same #1 or #2 carbide cutters that Mike Hunter uses. And are very easy to find.
I now have a regular Mate#1 tool, a Mate #1 undercut tool that I use for hollowing under a rim, or top of a hollow form.
And I recently picked up a mega mate#2 the takes over for most the hollowing work I did with the hollow pro tool.
The only catch I have ever had was with the mega mate tool. I simply got to far out over the tool rest with it, and it bit me. So I keep the Mike Jackofsky hollow pro tool around for when I really need to reach out over the tool rest.
I will grab the mate #1 tool when hollowing a bowl, or a small box, and finish it with HSS. Never a catch, or any issues.

http://www.mikejackofsky.com/Tools.html

https://jimmyclewes.com/product/jimmy-clewes-hollowing-tools-mate-1-mate-2/

-- John

View AndyJ1s's profile

AndyJ1s

40 posts in 140 days


#12 posted 05-05-2019 05:47 PM

I have the Hunter #2 Osprey; the cutter seat is angled down toward the end. The Osprey shank is round, for rolling the tool to whatever angle to ride the bevel of the cutter against the wood. The Osprey is available with a #1 or #2 cutter, and a 3/8” or 1/2” shank, respectively.

The Hunter Hercules has a square shank with 45 degree bevel to help present the bevel to the work, with apparently the same downward angle on the cutter seat. It is available with a #1 or #3 cutter, and a 3/8” or 5/8” shank, respectively.

The other Hunter tools, including the Badger line, and I believe the Harrison Simple Sheer tools that use the same style cutter style, have the cutter seat parallel to the tool shaft axis. I have no experience with them.

Andy

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#13 posted 05-06-2019 01:11 PM


I haven t used a shear cut carbide but I dislike the round bar carbides I made, they roll too easy and cause nasty catches. I planned on remaking them in square bar, Joe even sent me one, but I ve been using gouges except for roughing.

- Woodknack

That made me look at how they are made a little more closely. Was the cutter wider than the bar? After looking at several sheer cut tools which are on round shafts and their demos, I realized that one thing that they have in common is that the cutter is narrower than the round shaft. It looks like they taper the shaft a little so where the cutter is mounted, the shaft it is about the same width or slightly narrower than the cutter. If you are cutting with the sides of the cutter outside the width of the shaft, I can see that it would tend to try to turn it in your grip. Rolling it over may reduce the tendency to catch but in my experience the flat cutters do not work as well tipped over. Perhaps getting a sheer cut cutter from AZcarbide or just mounting a narrower flat cutter and tapering the end a little to match the cutter will make it so you don’t have to make a completely new tool? Just a thought.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#14 posted 05-06-2019 01:39 PM

Some good info above. Thanks. I looked at the Jimmy Clews tools but they seem to be at the high end pricewise. The Mike Jackofsky tools look competitively priced but availability seems to be a problem. They seem to be currently out of stock and from their website it looks like they don’t sell direct. Following the link from their website to Woodturners catalog shows they are out of stock until June 11.

I am still on the fence about make vs buy. For the 55 and 90 degree detailers at least I will probably just buy the Harrison tools for those and make my own handles for them since cutting the angled index accurately with the tools on hand will be pretty tough. I may order one of the Harrison sheer cut tools and then order some cutters of difference sizes from AZ Carbide and try to make some larger or smaller sheer cut tools after I get my hands on one to emulate.

One question for making my own… If I buy some 4140 round bar for example. Will I need to heat treat it (harden and temper) or is it just naturally hard enough compared to mild steel that I don’t need to do that?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1553 posts in 2115 days


#15 posted 05-06-2019 09:29 PM

4140 is hard enough without cooking it. I have several tool rests I made from it. One is my primary tool rest and gets more use than any individual tool. It’s still pretty smooth after 9 years…....... Jerry (in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#16 posted 05-12-2019 06:09 PM

Thanks everyone for your input. In the end, I opted for (nearly) instant gratification and ordered several tools from Harrison Specialties, though I am going to orders some steel to have on hand for the next one I want. I am impressed with the cut from the sheer cut tool. Here’s a shot from my first try showing a comparison between the finish with each type in a air dry ash blank I had laying around.
  1. roughing with 1/2” bowl gouge. I prefer using this rather than my roughing gouge for making square spindles round
  2. 1” skew after roughing with bowl gouge
  3. Harrison sheer cut after roughing. Note that I got more aggressive with the depth of cut as I moved from left to right.
  4. completed roughing with Harrison round cutter
  5. completed roughing with square cutter

Note that the V-grooves were done with a Harrison 55° cutter.

I have to say that I’m am very impressed with the finish from the sheer cutter.. Probably not quite as nice as the skew but if you are going to sand it anyway, the difference is probably negligible. I’ll try it on a bowl and end grain soon. The square and round cutters had no tendency to roll. Interesting, the v-tool had the most chatter even though I’d don’t make a very deep cut.

Here is a closeup of the sheer cutter

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Wildwood's profile

Wildwood

2644 posts in 2519 days


#17 posted 05-13-2019 11:01 AM

Hunter tools designed by Mike Hunter have been around for a long time and preferred by lot of newer & older turners. Not sure if he was the first to come out with them but Mike long time turner popular with lot of turners. Know John Lucas owns Hunter tools and think may have a video using or talking bout Hunter tools.

Harrison Specialties simple a tool vendor not sure who supplies their tools. Cannot say anything bad or good about them.

Like already said carbide tools easy to make in previous posting.

Own Sorby shear scraper one handle & one each round and square cutters. I am more proficient conventional turning tools for shear scrapping and have not mastered my carbide scrapers which hang on the wall.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Sto

-- Bill

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#18 posted 05-13-2019 12:41 PM

I have a couple of nice scrapers, at least one is a Sorby, with round ends that I use for scraping the inside of bowls that work well as long as the burr on them is raised properly. Yesterday I decided to finish turning a couple of small bowls that I roughed out sometime last year that have been drying for at least 9 months. I tried using both the sheer cut carbide and the HHS scrapers and the carbide was definitely a little easier on these bowls at least. Some of that may have simply been that the carbide tools are longer so it will take a little more trial and error to get a good read on that. Neither one was particularly good at removing the chatter marks I was getting along the edge—I turned them both pretty thin.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#19 posted 05-13-2019 12:59 PM

Here’s a semi-related question…Have any of you tried sharpening your carbide inserts? I’ve see reports that you can put the insert top down on a diamond sharpening plate to re-hone them. Anyone have any luck with that?

I can tell that the carbide in my new tools is definitely much sharper than the smaller tools I am replacing but they also seems to cut better than the smaller tools did when new so I am not sure if mine are dull or they are just cheap carbide or something. They are the Rockler mid-size tools.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Nubsnstubs's profile

Nubsnstubs

1553 posts in 2115 days


#20 posted 05-13-2019 03:00 PM

I sharpen my carbides. I did them the way you mentioned using a plate. It was discovered that it was a complete waste of time. I have some jewelers loupes I used to look at the edge before sharpening and after. I could see no difference in the edge after spending 10-15 minutes rubbing it on the diamond plate.
It was time to experiment, so I glued one of those plates to a disc I made to fit into the chuck. I sharpened the inserts that way for a while. Now, I’m using a Harbor Freight very small 5” grinder using a 180, 300, 600, and 1000 grit on 6” lapidary wheels. When sharpened, they seem to be much sharper than when first purchased. All it takes is under 1 minute to go through the grits.I’ve sharpened one insert Eastwood square insert for the Ci1 about 5 times now. At 17-18 dollars each, I have already paid for the grinder and diamond lap disc’s I have.
I demoed that at my club, and several people thought that it was a good tip. The cost of the grinder was 28 bucks, the wheels were about 10 each. So, for under 70 dollars you can sharpen 1 carbide insert 5 times and recover the cost of the grinder setup I have.
I believe I posted a video on YouTube. Look for my channel, “Nubsnstubs”. When there, look for a sharpening video. I’m not in Tucson right now, and this computer I’m using is an IPad, and too educated for me. I can barely hit the keys properly much less look at my channel. if it’s not posted, I’ll get one posted when I get back home.

Edit: I just looked at my channel. Didn’t see a video, so if you choose not to, you don’t have look just yet. ..... Jerry(in Tucson)

-- Jerry (in Tucson) www.woodturnerstools.com

View bigJohninvegas's profile

bigJohninvegas

604 posts in 1847 days


#21 posted 05-13-2019 04:12 PM

.

-

-


Here s a semi-related question…Have any of you tried sharpening your carbide inserts? I ve see reports that you can put the insert top down on a diamond sharpening plate to re-hone them. Anyone have any luck with that?

I can tell that the carbide in my new tools is definitely much sharper than the smaller tools I am replacing but they also seems to cut better than the smaller tools did when new so I am not sure if mine are dull or they are just cheap carbide or something. They are the Rockler mid-size tools.

- Lazyman


Yes, I have a trend credit card size diamond stone.
Check out this video, James Barry from Trend demo of sharpening carbide.
https://youtu.be/TN0AMUa-XvA

They do get dull, and I have heard that not all carbide is created equal. Some cheap stuff out there.
But I really don’t have any idea how to tell good quality from poor.

-- John

View bigJohninvegas's profile

bigJohninvegas

604 posts in 1847 days


#22 posted 05-13-2019 04:22 PM

I have the 300/600 grit stone shown in the video, and I have used it for both carbide, and my HSS turning tool.
With the bowl gouges, I sharpen on a CBN wheel when I start a new project, or feel the tool is.really dull. Then I tend to use the credit card stone in mid project as needed to keep it sharp.
Less time on a grinding wheel, and the tools should last longer.

-- John

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#23 posted 05-14-2019 04:01 AM

Thanks guys. I just bought a couple of diamond cards for another purpose. I will have to try that with one of the carbides I have that seems to be getting dull and see if I can get the same results.

Jerry, I would like to see your setup when you have a chance. Even just a picture would help me visualize what you are doing.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View AndyJ1s's profile

AndyJ1s

40 posts in 140 days


#24 posted 05-15-2019 02:14 AM

How would one go about sharpening a cupped cutter, like the Hunter and similar tools use?

It looks like you would sharpen the tapered circumference.

Maybe insert the screw into the cutter, and chuck the end of the screw in a drill press, then hold a diamond stone up to it?

Or chuck it in a power drill, and present it to a diamond wheel?

Andy

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3383 posts in 1772 days


#25 posted 05-15-2019 11:26 AM

I was wondering the same thing Andy. The problem with sharpening the sides is that it will change the diameter. Since the Hunter and Harrison tools match the taper of the carbide it would not take much sharpening before the blade is smaller than the taper on the bar and it might not work anymore.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View AndyJ1s's profile

AndyJ1s

40 posts in 140 days


#26 posted 05-16-2019 01:01 AM

Good point. That would certainly limit the number of times you can resharpen them, but even if you could only resharpen one once, that cuts the cost of the cutters in half.

Andy

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com