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All Replies on Box joint blade set no longer cuts 1/4" kerf???

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View Dan Thomas's profile

Box joint blade set no longer cuts 1/4" kerf???

by Dan Thomas
posted 02-09-2019 09:47 PM


50 replies so far

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

1311 posts in 2174 days


#1 posted 02-09-2019 09:55 PM

My guess would be those blades are created as close to 1/4” as possible under the Metric system (6mm is .14 less than 1/4”). The shims exist to adjust the width as necessary to get them exactly what you need. Now why they cut 1/4” before and not now, I don’t know unless the blades had debris between them or maybe your jig had enough play to fall within the tolerance. Like if your threaded rod is not an Acme rod, there’s a good chance it has enough play, but not enough to really affect your work so all seems well. Just a guess.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#2 posted 02-09-2019 10:11 PM

Thanks, Rayne, and that all makes sense, except that the reason I noticed this is that when I used my jig this time, the box joints didn’t fit.

As for the rod not being exact, it’s 16 threads per inch. I’m no expert, but I think if it wasn’t exactly 16 TPI, the nuts wouldn’t fit.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

993 posts in 1737 days


#3 posted 02-09-2019 10:48 PM

I’m not familiar with a box joint set, but I do have a dado stack. The two outer blades are marked as to which is inner and outer on the arbor. I don’t even know if this would make any difference in the with of the cut, but is it possible that you have gotten them turned around? Maybe the teeth are slightly off-set or maybe the plate is slightly thickened on one side ???

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#4 posted 02-09-2019 10:51 PM

Unfortunately, no, I don’t have them on wrong. But it would have been nice if that was the problem! :)

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#5 posted 02-09-2019 10:55 PM


My guess would be those blades are created as close to 1/4” as possible under the Metric system (6mm is .14 less than 1/4”).

- Rayne

I’ve thought some more on this, and I have an idea. Suppose the box joint set always cut a narrow kerf, but my old table saw was misaligned enough to cause it to cut a wider kerf – to the point where it evened out to 1/4”? I know I tuned up my old table saw at one point, but I don’t remember if it was before or after I cut the last box joints.

Would it be possible for a table saw to be misaligned enough to cut a kerf wider by .014”, and not be noticeable otherwise?

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4412 posts in 2623 days


#6 posted 02-09-2019 11:19 PM

I would not worry and just use shims.

One thing I have found is that I have to adjust finger joints for the wood I am using. I need a little different set up if I am using oak, Ash maple etc.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#7 posted 02-09-2019 11:25 PM

I think you show a lot of wisdom. But I want to know why this is happening!!!! I suppose I should just shrug it off and do what you say. It’s probably not worth the aggravation.

Thanks!

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Rich's profile

Rich

5226 posts in 1224 days


#8 posted 02-09-2019 11:27 PM

Rayne hinted at it, but the first thought I had was to just add shims.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View Rich's profile

Rich

5226 posts in 1224 days


#9 posted 02-09-2019 11:28 PM

.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#10 posted 02-09-2019 11:28 PM

Well, yeah, I already did that. I just wanted to know why this happened. I’m thinking now to just “let it go”. :)

Thanks, by the way. :)

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

1311 posts in 2174 days


#11 posted 02-09-2019 11:49 PM



As for the rod not being exact, it s 16 threads per inch. I m no expert, but I think if it wasn t exactly 16 TPI, the nuts wouldn t fit.

- Dan Thomas

A good way to test this is can you wobble the nut on your sawstop arbor when loose? You shouldn’t be able to. Now do the same to the nut on your regular threaded rod. You should have some play. This can make a small difference. If you had your old saw, you could have tested it by using a standard blade and cut a slot in a scrap to measure the width of the slot to the actual, widest width carbide tip on the blade to see if there was a difference.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#12 posted 02-09-2019 11:52 PM

OK, I hear you. Good thing I’ve decided to take Redoak49’s advice and just let it go. ;p Sometimes, ignorance really is bliss.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View corelz125's profile

corelz125

1037 posts in 1611 days


#13 posted 02-10-2019 01:07 AM

I have the Freud dado set and it is off from what the directions say for the setup. I add a shim.

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#14 posted 02-10-2019 02:21 AM

I’m late to this conversation but was wondering how you made the determination they are cutting too narrow?

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

4649 posts in 2022 days


#15 posted 02-10-2019 03:16 AM

I guess I am a little like you, I want to know why…
Did you make the jig or did you buy one? Here are the things that occurred to me to look at. I assume that it is the gaps and not the fingers that are too thin? Is the finger to finger spacing exactly 1/2”? Measure it across an entire board and make sure that there is no cumulative error.
To get measurements in thousandths of an inch, I assume you are using a caliper. Is it possible that your jig is not perfectly perpendicular to the blade? I can imagine a way of cutting a 1/4” slot at a slight angle and then when you measure with your caliper, if you insert the blades perpendicular to the face of the board, it would measure slightly narrower and the finger joints won’t mesh properly. Shimming your blade may not fix that problem. You might get sloppy joints. Note that is a different problem than if your blade is not parallel to the miter slots. This is where the backer board of your jig is not perpendicular to the blade.

Finally, I can’t image that it would make that much difference and I don’t know what the thermal linear expansion of carbide is like but what is the current temperature of your shop? Even if it isn’t cold enough to measurably affect the width of the blade, I wonder if a really cold temperature could affect the length of the threaded rod that is being used to control your jig? Just thinking about variables that could theoretically affect your finger joint jig.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#16 posted 02-10-2019 02:50 PM


I m late to this conversation but was wondering how you made the determination they are cutting too narrow?

- BlasterStumps

I used the box joint jig, and the fingers didn’t match. When I measured the valleys (or whatever you call them), they were too narrow, and the teeth were too wide. This jig has been rock solid up until now, so I figured something must be off.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#17 posted 02-10-2019 02:53 PM

Lazyman – The problem isn’t the box joint jig. Yes, I built it myself, but it works flawlessly. Yesterday I added some shims to my dado stack to bring the kerf to the right width, and it works perfectly. I’ve used box joints in drawers as deep as 8”, so if there was a problem, it would have manifested itself by then. Read my next reply, for ewhat I think happened.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View rustfever's profile

rustfever

784 posts in 3945 days


#18 posted 02-10-2019 03:04 PM

Did you check the blade run-out [wobble] on either of your table saws? Bet the old saw had just a bit more run-out than does the new. Would not take a lot to create a few thousand difference in the kerf.

-- Rustfever, Central California

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#19 posted 02-10-2019 03:08 PM

So here’s what I think happened. I could totally be wrong here, but this makes sense, and I’m just going to accept it and cover my ears so I don’t hear any reasons why this could be wrong. ;p

1) I think the blades have always cut too narrow, by .014” or so. This is a pretty reasonable assumption.

2) I think the last time I used my jig was on my old table saw. I know I had to move the runners for my new table saw, but I have no idea how much, if any, I tested it. So I’m comfortable with this assumption. Mostly, anyway.

3) With my old table saw, I know I calibrated it, but it was not easy to get it right, so I could have made mistakes. Another reasonable assumption.

4) If the blade isn’t aligned to the miter slots, the kerf will be wider. this is true.

So here’s my theory:

Assuming my blade was misaligned, it just so happened that it was off about the right amount to make up for the blades being slightly too narrow.

Anyway, that’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it. ;p

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#20 posted 02-10-2019 03:09 PM

Double post, sorry.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#21 posted 02-10-2019 03:11 PM


Did you check the blade run-out [wobble] on either of your table saws? Bet the old saw had just a bit more run-out than does the new. Would not take a lot to create a few thousand difference in the kerf.

- rustfever

And you couldn’t have posted this 10 minutes earlier, so I didn’t have to give my long-winded explanation? LOL.

Yes, I think it was exactly something like that.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5828 posts in 3878 days


#22 posted 02-10-2019 06:10 PM

I have the same box joint set, but I have never actually measured to see if it cut exactly 1/4” or 3/8”. They could actually be off a few thousands and who would know as long as the resulting joint fit. Since you were cutting a 1/2” joint, I’m sure you had to actually measure for the cut. Now that you are cutting a 1/4” joint, the under size dimension shows up for the first time. I will make a cut with my set, measure it and report back.

You were using a threaded rod with 16 TPI. Threaded rods are very imprecise. There is enough slop between the nut and the rod to measure 1/64” or more. When cutting a box joint, how many people actually measure the joint afterwards? As long as the joint fits, there is no reason to check it.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#23 posted 02-10-2019 08:15 PM



You were using a threaded rod with 16 TPI. Threaded rods are very imprecise. There is enough slop between the nut and the rod to measure 1/64” or more.

- MrRon

I don’t disagree with that in theory. But I have two threaded inserts that the rod goes through, one on each side of the carriage. The chances of those being lined up perfectly are fairly remote, so that takes away some of the slack.

But none of that matters. What matters is it worked before, then it quit working. And it works again now, when I add .014” (I think that number’s right, it could be .016”) of shims. So the rest is just speculation. Don’t get me wrong – it’s fun speculation!

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5828 posts in 3878 days


#24 posted 02-10-2019 10:34 PM

Dan Thomas: I cut some finger joints just now and the 1/4” setup measured .254”. The 3/8” setup measured .380”. I think the blades are OK, so it must be the saw. I was pretty sure the blade would be what it says it is. If your saw’s arbor run-out was a thousand or 2, the resulting cut would be over size, not under size, so I can’t think what else could cause the cut to be under size. To be .014-.016 under, is a lot. The only plausible explanation I can see is your measuring instrument is not reading correctly.

Having to add shims defeats the purpose of a dedicated box joint set.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#25 posted 02-10-2019 10:47 PM

MrRon – Thanks for checking for me. I totally agree with everything you said, except I know it’s not my measuring tool. I’ve measured it with two different calipers.

Now you know why I posted this question here. How both sets of blades cut too narrow of a kerf is really beyond me. It honestly feels like I’m in the twilight zone.

The only other thing I can think of is that both blades hit something inside my saw, that chiped the outside teeth enough to narrow them that amount. The problems with this are:

1) I would have heard it, but more importantly,

2) The SawStop brake would have triggered.

And honestly, there’s nothing for the blade to hit anyway.

I’m at a loss. But at least I have a workaround.

Thanks again for your help.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#26 posted 02-11-2019 02:33 AM

Which way are you orienting the blades when you place them on the arbor? Graphics in towards each other or graphics out away from each other? I was reading the instructions and I believe it says for the 1/4” they are to be out, for the 3/8 they should face each other.

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View JohnDon's profile

JohnDon

92 posts in 1804 days


#27 posted 02-11-2019 02:43 AM

Okay- now the only fanatical solution is to rebuild your jig, using metric rod/nuts :)

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5828 posts in 3878 days


#28 posted 02-11-2019 03:48 AM

According to the brochure on the Freud box joint cutter set, it states “Fast setup for PRECISE 1/4” and 3/8” joints WITHOUT shims or adjustments”.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#29 posted 02-11-2019 02:00 PM

Hey guys, how do you cancel a post you’re composing? I started typing a post, then decided I wanted to check something before I posted it, so I wanted to just cancel. There’s no cancel button (that I can see), and if I clear out the box, it just comes back when I re-open the page.

(So I figured I might as well post something useful with the post, and ask this question.)

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#30 posted 02-11-2019 02:24 PM

after you delete the content of the message, close out Lumberjocks and then close your browser.

Open browser and LJ again and the message should be gone.

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#31 posted 02-11-2019 02:38 PM

BlasterStamps – Thanks. That’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing. :)

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#32 posted 02-11-2019 02:42 PM

OK, here’s a picture that should show it’s not my imagination. This one only measured shy by .007”, but that’s probably because I backed out the stock and probably let it move a little.

https://thenewbiewoodworker.com/assets/images-posts/box-joint-kerf-width-issue-01.jpg

Make sure you zoom it all the way out. You can see it at the bottom of the Kreg block, if you look closely.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#33 posted 02-11-2019 03:03 PM

Is the Kreg setup bar 1/4” thick material?

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#34 posted 02-11-2019 03:07 PM

Yes. If you either zoom out, or scroll to the right, you’ll see the markings on it. Here’s the product: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YIG58W/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_Z9yyCb13TXDFF

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#35 posted 02-11-2019 03:12 PM

I saw the markings but, I believe the 1/4” marking is for the height of the cutout in the middle that you would use to set the router bit height. I was wonder what the thickness of the aluminum is that the cut the tool out of. If it is 1/4”, then I suggest trying the tool in a vertical manner in the slot you cut to see if it will fit. The tip of the tool as it lays flat in the picture may not be 1/4”. I know, I am probably over thinking it. : )

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#36 posted 02-11-2019 03:14 PM

No, great question. It’s the same height as the cutout. All the bars are like that. So you can also use it to set the distance from the fence to the edge of the bit, or whatever.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

12256 posts in 1773 days


#37 posted 02-11-2019 03:27 PM

I see one obvious omission in your detective work ;-) You obviously have a caliper and know how to use it. So, did you measure the width of the teeth on your Box Joint Blade? If the teeth measure 1/4” but cut a kerf smaller than that, I’ll be truly intrigued!

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#38 posted 02-11-2019 03:30 PM

HokieKen – Very funny. No I didn’t measure the teeth, and I’m not even sure I could do that accurately. But I think it’s safe to say that the teeth are NOT wider than the kerf.

Although, considering everything that’s going on, that would at least prove I’m living in an alternate dimension.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

12256 posts in 1773 days


#39 posted 02-11-2019 03:41 PM



HokieKen – Very funny. No I didn t measure the teeth, and I m not even sure I could do that accurately. But I think it s safe to say that the teeth are NOT wider than the kerf.

Although, considering everything that s going on, that would at least prove I m living in an alternate dimension.

- Dan Thomas

Why’s that Dan?

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

4649 posts in 2022 days


#40 posted 02-11-2019 03:47 PM

Kenny, I think that it is the 2 blade Freud box cutter set. Based upon the description it can cut either 1/4” or 3/8” box joints by simply swapping left & right blades. The only way to actually measure the width is to measure the kerf because I am sure that the teeth cannot be side by side.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#41 posted 02-11-2019 04:16 PM

OK, mystery solved, but it brings up another question. Check out this picture: https://thenewbiewoodworker.com/assets/images-posts/box-joint-kerf-width-issue-02.jpg

The outside edge of the teeth on one of the blades of the box joint set are chipped. And honestly, this should have been the first thing I checked. Shame on you guys for not calling me on it. ;p Not sure when it happened, but there it is.

Now for the other question: The dado stack’s teeth are pristine. So does that mean the dado stack is manufactured in such a way as to cut slightly less than 1/4”, without shims? I’d be surprised if that’s true, but that’s the only explanation I have. Of course it’s not a huge deal because you can add shims, but still, it makes me wonder.

Anyway, next time I should remember to check the obvious, before jumping to wild conclusions.

Thanks for the help, guys.

And special thanks to HokieKen for asking me why I couldn’t measure the blade. I decided to take a picture to show him, and that’s when I looked close enough to see the chipped teeth.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

12256 posts in 1773 days


#42 posted 02-11-2019 04:49 PM

Ahh, 2 stacked blades makes sense. I assumed it was just single blades. Odd for all of the teeth to be chipped and not just one or two Dan. Musta been a tough nail in one of your boards!

I can’t really say about my dado stack’s actual width Dan. I always get it close, make a test cut and add shims to get me where I need to be. My 30-year-old saw tends to cut slightly oversized kerfs so I don’t relay on the actual cutter width.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#43 posted 02-11-2019 05:00 PM

I don’t think I hit a nail – I only use the blades for cutting box joints in plywood. My old saws insert was metal, so maybe I somehow hit it. It’s far enough back that I don’t remember. Or maybe I damaged it when I was trying to get it working with my new table saw. Who knows.

But the assumption that I screwed something up is generally the best assumption, when trying to figure out why anything I do has problems. I call myself “Newbie Dan” for a reason, after all. ;p

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

4649 posts in 2022 days


#44 posted 02-11-2019 05:16 PM

I wonder if the dado set is actually cutting a 6mm rather than 1/4” groove. It might be cheaper for Freud to make a single set that will work for both imperial and metric uses since you typically have to shim them anyway?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View BlasterStumps's profile

BlasterStumps

1524 posts in 1074 days


#45 posted 02-11-2019 07:39 PM

Looks kind of like the damage you would get if you got them clamped together with the graphics in not out or one tooth touching on the other blade. Just a thought.

-- "I build for function first, looks second. Most times I never get around to looks." - Mike, western Colorado

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

13059 posts in 3015 days


#46 posted 02-11-2019 08:26 PM

I would shoot an email to Freud and ask about the width. You might get an answer in 6-8 months. Actually Twitter might be faster.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#47 posted 02-11-2019 08:32 PM


Looks kind of like the damage you would get if you got them clamped together with the graphics in not out or one tooth touching on the other blade. Just a thought.

- BlasterStumps

You’re right, it does look like that. The blades are actually designed to be put together two ways, one for 1/4” cuts and one for 3/8” cuts (I think). And although I don’t use them for the wider cuts, if I did use them that way, I think that could happen.

But as I said, I don’t use them that way.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#48 posted 02-11-2019 08:39 PM


I would shoot an email to Freud and ask about the width. You might get an answer in 6-8 months. Actually Twitter might be faster.

- Woodknack

Great idea! Just contacted them from their website. I’ll let you know what I hear back.

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

View htl's profile

htl

4921 posts in 1794 days


#49 posted 02-11-2019 08:46 PM

46 replies I just couldn’t bring myself to read them all but kept looking for the box Joint jig you are using to make them.
Is it home made or store bought?
Went to your site and no mention of you building one in your videos.

I built Ed Stiles’ Box Joint Jig and if I has a tight fit it could be fixed by running the part through First adding pressure to the right then pressure to the left with each cut. This uses the little bit a play in the jig to get a wider cut.
I’m sorry if I’m on the wrong subject but this is a work around for tight fits.
Just my $.02

-- An Index Of My Model making Blogs https://www.lumberjocks.com/htl/blog/130264

View Dan Thomas's profile

Dan Thomas

160 posts in 631 days


#50 posted 02-11-2019 10:05 PM

htl – I haven’t talked about my box joint jig on my channel yet. I actually had a build video started (it was going to be one of the first videos on my channel), but other things took over. I still have some of the parts already cut for the video, sitting in a box on a shelf.

Here’s mine, and it looks a lot like yours, without the handles:

I suspect we built ours from the same plans, although the plans I have don’t have the name of who made them. I don’t have your fancy handles, and my mirror is an old compact of my wife’s. ;p

I see you have two threaded inserts the rod goes through, on your carriage. Were they in your original plans? Because the plans I have only had one threaded insert on the carriage, and the carriage kept tilting, so I changed it to two.

I haven’t tried adding pressure like that, but I’ll bet it would work perfectly. Thanks for the tip!

And holy crap! You have a lot of model-making blog entries! Good for you – we need to share whatever we learn with as many people as possible. I’ve benefited so much from others, so I love being able to give back. Looks like you do too. :)

-- Newbie Dan, https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewbiewoodworker

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