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All Replies on Breadboard Ends on Farmhouse Table (What type of joinery?)

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View BigDwood's profile

Breadboard Ends on Farmhouse Table (What type of joinery?)

by BigDwood
posted 01-22-2019 01:50 AM


26 replies so far

View jdmaher's profile

jdmaher

462 posts in 3117 days


#1 posted 01-22-2019 04:07 AM

Well, here’s a picture

And that’s from a Woodcraft article on Breadbpard Ends.

There are variations, but that should give you the basic idea.

-- Jim Maher, Illinois

View jdh122's profile

jdh122

1102 posts in 3355 days


#2 posted 01-22-2019 12:12 PM

I guess you must want such wide breadboard for aesthetic reasons, but it’s sure going to complicate things. I would think that the tenons should be pretty long, given that anyone sitting at the end of the table who uses the table to stand up will have their whole weight only on the breadboards. I would make the tenons pretty long, say 4-5 inches, using the method that Jim suggests (though I haven’t pinned them in the middle tenon since it gets glued).

-- Jeremy, in the Acadian forests

View iamwelty's profile

iamwelty

264 posts in 3653 days


#3 posted 01-22-2019 01:37 PM

That’s what I’m going to do…

-- There is a fine line between eroticism and nausea...

View jamsomito's profile

jamsomito

434 posts in 963 days


#4 posted 01-22-2019 01:47 PM

Well… I built some plans by the Wood Whisperer that had breadboard ends, and it did not go so well. See here:

project: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/385105
Issues: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/280609

It looks even worse now that we’re in the winter season.

Some contributing factors:
1. I didn’t cut haunched tenons. I’m also a beginner/intermediate and I just didn’t have a way to cut them. So, I ran the breadboards straight through the table saw to make one solid “mortise” (more like a deep dado), and I cut the tenon on the tabletop with a circular saw, chisel, and power hand planer. It fit… but it did not seal well at all.

2. I used pressure treated pine. I skipped the big box store and went to my local lumber yard thinking it would be better quality. The stuff was supposedly kiln dried after treating, but it was sopping wet. I let it sit on my lumber rack for a year, and some boards were still heavier than the others when I assembled it. So, uneven moisture content made it warp, but regardless, it’s amazing watching this thing move from day to day with changing weather conditions. My glue joints failed and there are roughly 1/4” gaps between the boards when it’s really dry, and everything swells up and closes again when it rains. The whole top has a big bow in it, and my breadboard ends are completely failed (cracked and split) at this point.

So… if it’s designed perfectly correctly, maybe it would work. But I would strongly advise you to consider something else so you don’t find yourself needing to completely remake the top like I did.

I see Matt Cremona has a farmhouse table where he made breadboard ends, but he did the haunched tenons, his craftsmanship was orders of magnitude better than mine, and he sealed everything up with an outdoor epoxy finish (expensive). If you do all of this, I suppose it can work. But, I lack the skills to do it.

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#5 posted 01-22-2019 01:48 PM

Ok…I’ll have to add 4-5 inches on both ends of my specs to incorporate the tenons. How thick do you suggest I make them? They’re 2×10’s again.

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5555 posts in 2888 days


#6 posted 01-22-2019 01:58 PM

Those would be very wide breadboard ends. I’m not sure why you would want that. It will require cutting some very deep mortises and really the function of breadboards is to keep the top level. You can achieve that with much narrower breadboards and simplify your construction with shallower mortises. Something like 4” breadboards will actually be stronger because you will not be able to apply as much leverage on the end as you would a 10” breadboard.

-- Bondo Gaposis

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BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#7 posted 01-22-2019 02:15 PM

@bondogaposis I actually agree with you Bondo. The aesthetic would be nice, but I feel like I’m comprising the integrity of the table.

Just for the sake of learning, would M&T be the only joint you’d go with? Would you ever consider dowels using the 2×4’s?

View Robert's profile

Robert

3555 posts in 2018 days


#8 posted 01-22-2019 02:20 PM

2×10 is too wide for a breadboard no matter how big the top for the reasons Bondo mentioned.

I wouldn’t go wider than 6” with 3-4” tenons. Tenon depth should be about 2/3 the width of the bb.

P.S. Don’t rely on a BB to keep a top flat. ;-)

If you’re using construction lumber, be VERY sure your lumber is dried and acclimated.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5555 posts in 2888 days


#9 posted 01-22-2019 02:28 PM

Just for the sake of learning, would M&T be the only joint you’d go with? Would you ever consider dowels using the 2×4’s?

Look at the picture jdmaher posted. It uses tenons and dowels. The key is the slotted dowel holes on the end tenons. It is not glued but allows the table top to move laterally with changes in humidity. I would not consider using dowels alone as it wouldn’t allow for wood movement.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#10 posted 01-22-2019 02:41 PM

It’s a kitchen/dining room table, so since it’s my first one, I’ll probably go with yellow pine, which is cheaper here in NC. I think with a nice stain and finish, it should still look nice.

View jamsomito's profile

jamsomito

434 posts in 963 days


#11 posted 01-22-2019 03:08 PM

Sorry, I was assuming it was an outdoor table for some reason. Should be a good project for indoors. Good luck and have fun.

View GrantA's profile (online now)

GrantA

1954 posts in 1945 days


#12 posted 01-22-2019 03:13 PM

Look for a sawmill and buy 5/4 or 6/4 yellow pine from them, have them kiln dry it. Surely there’s a place nearby. You’ll be miles ahead from buying 2x lumber from a building supply store and you’ll have made a valuable connection with a sawyer.

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#13 posted 01-22-2019 03:21 PM

We have several local sawmills, but the design is for a bulky 4×4 base farmhouse look, so I’d think the top would look better with 8/4 and feel more solid.

View ChefHDAN's profile

ChefHDAN

1477 posts in 3387 days


#14 posted 01-22-2019 05:19 PM

Size and scale are important design aesthetics, that seems to be a awfully thick heavy top for a relatively small table, especially, if your breadboards are going to equal 19” of the table top, it will visually be a bit jarring. If you think about the fact that a general place setting is 20” to 24” of table top, and if you’re going with a farmhouse trestle base that’s two persons per side, see sketch, circles are a 10” dinner plate.

At the same size of plates a 4” breadboard has a better look and is perfectly effective for the design and the structure to combat cupping.

-- I've decided 1 mistake is really 2 opportunities to learn.. learn how to fix it... and learn how to not repeat it

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#15 posted 01-22-2019 08:04 PM

The table is large, 4 ft wide and around 7 ft long. Not sure where your measurements are from.

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2431 days


#16 posted 01-22-2019 08:11 PM

Pine table top breadboards, done with hand tools but the principles are the same. Dimensions are a little smaller than yours but not by a lot.

Part 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2R8JjkiGWo&
Part 2 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Tjd2j6uho

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#17 posted 01-22-2019 08:15 PM

So are you agreeing with the 2×4 suggestion? I may be reading it wrong and don’t mean to sound dense. lol

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2431 days


#18 posted 01-22-2019 10:58 PM

I don’t use traditional 2×4s for anything but basic framing that no one will ever see. I don’t even use them for crappy shop furniture any more. Too many headaches. If you notice in the 2nd video I posted, the breadboards are quartersawn. Good luck finding a QS 2×4 anywhere in this hemisphere! I’m sure they exist but you’d be wasting your life searching piles. Also, his breadboards are wider after final dimensions than a 2×4 is off the rack. So what he did was take a larger board and size it down.

So, yes, you can make your own QS “2×4” from say a 2×10 or 2×12. I don’t know how thick your table will be but if it’s in the range of an actual 2×4, stay away from an actual 2×4 and make your own.

View GrantA's profile (online now)

GrantA

1954 posts in 1945 days


#19 posted 01-23-2019 01:01 AM


I’m new to woodworking, and my new project is a 4×4 Farmhouse Table.

- BigDwood


The table is large, 4 ft wide and around 7 ft long. Not sure where your measurements are from.

- BigDwood

His measurements are from your post. We’ll try to help but we can only lead a horse to water…
It sounds like you’re maybe set on your method and want us to justify it, we’re trying to help by suggesting you ditch the notion of using 2x material. Nothing wrong with buying 2” thick or 8/4 lumber but typically when someone says 2x they’re buying construction grade lumber from a home center.
Also note that 8/4 is a full 2” thick and 2x lumber is 1-1/2 thick- typically 5/4-6/4 is what you’ll see for a tabletop.
We’ve all been there and are urging you to find another source for better quality lumber. It won’t necessarily cost anymore.
Good luck on your journey

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#20 posted 01-23-2019 01:28 AM

I’m buying my lumber from a sawmill/lumberyard…8/4, buying by the board foot. I just have a bad habit of saying 2×4…I understand a 2×4 from a building supply doesn’t give you it’s true dimensions. If 6/4 and 5/4 is what most tabletops are made of, that’s the info I’m looking for. I’m not knocking anyone’s ideas, some of the responses just haven’t been clear to me, probably my misunderstanding and ignorance. My original post was for suggestions, and if you guys have opinions on tabletop lumber sizes, base lumber sizes, pics of your projects, etc., I’m totally open. I’m the newbie, you guys are the vets. Your guidance is very much appreciated. If I said something that come across disrespectful, I truly apologize.

View GrantA's profile (online now)

GrantA

1954 posts in 1945 days


#21 posted 01-23-2019 02:29 AM

OK if we call you Dustin? I found that on your website, no worries I just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page. Lots of folks come on here with hopes of building heirloom pieces using 2×4s from lowe’s, when you mention 2x lumber that’s what we read.
Again, best of luck and keep us updated!

View BigDwood's profile

BigDwood

11 posts in 303 days


#22 posted 01-23-2019 09:41 AM

This is what I want my table to look like. But I want to use the right materials. Should I use 8/4 for the tabletop and 16/4 for the base or do you recommend something different? I appreciate any suggestions.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3555 posts in 2018 days


#23 posted 01-23-2019 02:41 PM


It’s a kitchen/dining room table, so since it’s my first one, I’ll probably go with yellow pine, which is cheaper here in NC. I think with a nice stain and finish, it should still look nice.

- BigDwood

Just a word of caution about staining pine it can be fraught with difficulties due to blotching. Do some testing and you will see what I’m talking about.

So I would reconsider the yellow pine, not just for this reason, but because there will be knots which can be hard to deal with also.

A really good choice for a table top is white oak. Just something to consider…....

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2431 days


#24 posted 01-23-2019 03:45 PM

It appears you got that photo from this guy’s farm table build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IT89XCa9Vk

He took it from Ana White plans (gee, who coulda guessed that?) And now I see why you asked about 2×10 breadboards. What he (and she) did wasn’t even a breadboard.

All I can say: this do not build it like that video.

Do a search for “farmhouse table” on this site and you will find lots of good advice about what to do and what not to do.

View ChefHDAN's profile

ChefHDAN

1477 posts in 3387 days


#25 posted 01-24-2019 02:30 PM



I’m new to woodworking, and my new project is a 4×4 Farmhouse Table.
- BigDwood

Your OP was a 4’x4’ table

-- I've decided 1 mistake is really 2 opportunities to learn.. learn how to fix it... and learn how to not repeat it

View ChefHDAN's profile

ChefHDAN

1477 posts in 3387 days


#26 posted 01-24-2019 02:33 PM

His Measurements are from your post. We ll try to help but we can only lead a horse to water…
It sounds like you re maybe set on your method and want us to justify it, we re trying to help by suggesting you ditch the notion of using 2x material. Nothing wrong with buying 2” thick or 8/4 lumber but typically when someone says 2x they re buying construction grade lumber from a home center.
Good luck on your journey

- GrantA

TY Grant

-- I've decided 1 mistake is really 2 opportunities to learn.. learn how to fix it... and learn how to not repeat it

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