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View Fuzzybearz's profile

Trash can collection

by Fuzzybearz
posted 01-13-2019 01:30 AM


32 replies so far

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1329 posts in 1003 days


#1 posted 01-13-2019 03:31 AM

You definitely need a place for the air to go. Rocker used to sell a trash can cyclone kit but I have not seen it lately on their website. You could create your own with two 90 deg PVC el’s Cut into your lid to create a cyclone effect.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#2 posted 01-13-2019 04:13 AM

What goes in must come out. How is the lid staying on? The cyclone lid is all over the internet for about $30, but it uses 4” piping. And it is normally placed before the collector to keep most material out of the fan and filter. Did you remove the bags and run pipe to garbage? What filters the chips and dust out? Are you trying to dump material into garbage can? I changed my old north state chip collector with bags to a modern collector by buying the jet pleated filter kit and added the jet chip deflector when it became available..now I have a DUST collector. I have 5” ducts with 4” taps to the machines. If I would dump the air outside, I could never heat my shop in winter or dehumidify it in the summer. Post a picture of your dust collector, not the trash can please, so we can better understand what you have set up.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#3 posted 01-13-2019 04:13 AM

Well I dont need a cyclone. That trash can is to replace the bags that were there. It’s located after the dust collector system.

I’m just wondering if i need to somehow vent the air out that’s being pushed into the can.

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

152 posts in 2199 days


#4 posted 01-13-2019 05:34 AM

You’ll not only need a vent outlet, but also a pressure drop. The drop in pressure allows the solids (e.g. dust, chips, loose change, etc.) to fall out of the air stream. The inlet and outlet should be the same diameter, thus the inlet and outlet air volume (measured in cubic feet per second, cfs) are roughly the same (without getting into the details of fluid mechanics, losses in the system etc.). However the expansion in the receptacle creates a pressure drop to release the solids.

Grizzly has a trash can separator, however you can build one out of many different materials, styles…

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

742 posts in 419 days


#5 posted 01-13-2019 06:51 AM

If you go to the blog or video tab and do a search for dust collection, you’ll see some advise to help.

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1435 posts in 1324 days


#6 posted 01-13-2019 03:28 PM

I don’t know what to say except that you really need to get local help from someone who understands the subject or simply copy what other people have done. I don’t think you will be able to get enough understanding to make this stuff work well from an internet forum.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#7 posted 01-13-2019 04:52 PM

Again i’m not looking to create a cyclone. The trash can is located after the dust collector, if you look to the left of the garbage can in the picture you can see the dust collector. I do not need to separate out the chips, I just want to dump everything in the garbage can and let the small particles go anywhere since it is located Outside.

I think ibewjon said it best of “what goes in must come out” and “how is the lid staying on”
This means I have to create the outlet which will also most likely dispense the fine particles. As for the plan for the trash can lid, I was thinking ratchet straps. That was a question I was going to pose later.

The reason I can’t really find good examples anywhere is that people either use a cyclone, or just dump everything outside and not into a garbage can. I know i’m not the only one using this, just difficult to find similar projects.

Just to recap everyone, I do not need to separate anything. This garbage can is located in my outside shed so I just everything to be dumped into it and i don’t mind if the small particles are released into the air since it is outside. The picture of my dust collector is to the left of my garbage can in the pictures.

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#8 posted 01-13-2019 05:23 PM

If I understand you correctly, you have removed the filter and collection bags and are trying to blow everything outside and hope to collect the largest chips. If so, I would drill a bunch of holes in the can to let the airstream dissapate. Start with some and add more to get results you are happy with. You have a unique situation here. You must have a large HP collector as most articles I have seen use 5” for a home shop size collector, 2 or 3 hp.

View woodbutcherbynight's profile

woodbutcherbynight

5974 posts in 2917 days


#9 posted 01-13-2019 05:24 PM



I just want to dump everything in the garbage can and let the small particles go anywhere since it is located Outside.

I think ibewjon said it best of “what goes in must come out” and “how is the lid staying on”
This means I have to create the outlet which will also most likely dispense the fine particles. As for the plan for the trash can lid, I was thinking ratchet straps.

- Fuzzybearz

How about a stove pipe that goes up and out of the top. Keeps it simple since you already have cut into the top once. The particles will fall down, the air will vent up and out and you are done.

Bungee cords would work and less hassle to get on and off.

-- Live to tell the stories, they sound better that way.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#10 posted 01-13-2019 09:04 PM



If I understand you correctly, you have removed the filter and collection bags and are trying to blow everything outside and hope to collect the largest chips. If so, I would drill a bunch of holes in the can to let the airstream dissapate. Start with some and add more to get results you are happy with. You have a unique situation here. You must have a large HP collector as most articles I have seen use 5” for a home shop size collector, 2 or 3 hp.

- ibewjon

Well I’m about to test the internets claims and real life. The outlet of my DC is 8” but all the calculators online say that’s too large and it can only run 6” max. It’s a PM 1500 and 3hp

I just want to dump everything in the garbage can and let the small particles go anywhere since it is located Outside.

I think ibewjon said it best of “what goes in must come out” and “how is the lid staying on”
This means I have to create the outlet which will also most likely dispense the fine particles. As for the plan for the trash can lid, I was thinking ratchet straps.

- Fuzzybearz

How about a stove pipe that goes up and out of the top. Keeps it simple since you already have cut into the top once. The particles will fall down, the air will vent up and out and you are done.

Bungee cords would work and less hassle to get on and off.

- woodbutcherbynight

I’ll keep the bungee cords in mind. The stovepipe is what I was also thinking. The unfortunate thing is that my HVAC is right next to it outside. But regardless I’m going to try to aim it away and see

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Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#11 posted 01-14-2019 12:43 AM

Well no need for bungee cords as of yet. I did a dry run and the lid doesn’t come off. I added the “stove pipe”. Gets only 800cfm at the first 5” drop though so I may have leakage somewhere

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#12 posted 01-14-2019 12:47 AM

Scratch that. Did a retest at 5” and it’s 1000 cfm

View tmasondarnell's profile

tmasondarnell

116 posts in 2297 days


#13 posted 01-14-2019 02:19 AM

Fuzzybearz,

I don’t doubt your measurements, but I am trying to understand how you are getting 800 cfm or 1000 cfm exhausting into a 32 gallon trashcan without it blowing the lid off. Some quick back of the envelope math says that at 800 cfm, you should be replacing the volume of that can 3 times every second.

If you are exhausting it outside, who worry about the can at all? Just let the chips fall where they may

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#14 posted 01-14-2019 02:53 AM

I have a 4” exhaust on the trash can. Does that seem more plausible?

As for letting everything vent outside, it’s my side yard and I have a car there along with my hvac unit so I want to keep my hvac going and car cleanish : )

One thing I wonder, I have the dust collector at 8” and it’s pushing air into the garbage can at 5” and the outlet is 4” am I somehow restricting something? I feel if anything I should add another exhaust as I blocked off the 5” exhaust on the other side of the DC to push it to just one side.


Fuzzybearz,

I don t doubt your measurements, but I am trying to understand how you are getting 800 cfm or 1000 cfm exhausting into a 32 gallon trashcan without it blowing the lid off. Some quick back of the envelope math says that at 800 cfm, you should be replacing the volume of that can 3 times every second.

If you are exhausting it outside, who worry about the can at all? Just let the chips fall where they may

- tmasondarnell


View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#15 posted 01-14-2019 04:02 AM

Also, I did my calculations based on pie r squared x velocity x 60sec = cubic ft/min

4/12 or 5/12 or 6/12 (dependent on the size of the drop)

(( x /12) / 2 ) squared) x pie x 60 sec x measured velocity in ft/s

For example for a 5” drop I got 100 ft/s

((5/12) / 2) squared ) x pie x 60 sec x 100 ft/s = ~1000 cubic ft/min

And the meter I used was purchased off amazon for $20 so while it may be inaccurate, it swings both ways so it may have overstated or understated the velocity.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#16 posted 01-21-2019 05:21 PM

Soo. Finally got dust being collected, did a ton then looked outside and it looked like it had snowed sawdust

The top didn’t hold, but with that the small holes I had made was also pushing out sawdust

I think because I blocked one exhaust off, the air is coming in at too high velocity and creating turbulence within the can so everything is being expelled in whatever corner it can find


Fuzzybearz,

I don t doubt your measurements, but I am trying to understand how you are getting 800 cfm or 1000 cfm exhausting into a 32 gallon trashcan without it blowing the lid off. Some quick back of the envelope math says that at 800 cfm, you should be replacing the volume of that can 3 times every second.

If you are exhausting it outside, who worry about the can at all? Just let the chips fall where they may

- tmasondarnell


View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2608 posts in 2353 days


#17 posted 01-21-2019 06:19 PM

Did your dust collector come with a filter bag? If so use that over the can, then the air can escape and most particles can fall down into the can.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#18 posted 01-21-2019 07:05 PM

: ). Stupid me. I threw that stuff away but yes that would solve my turbulence problem to an extent.

I was actually thinking about getting the 5” hose and make it do a ton of 90 degree turns to slow down the air before it hit the can. I just don’t know if that would provide backward pressure on the dust collector motor.


Did your dust collector come with a filter bag? If so use that over the can, then the air can escape and most particles can fall down into the can.

- RobS888


View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#19 posted 01-21-2019 07:40 PM

Current situation

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1329 posts in 1003 days


#20 posted 01-21-2019 08:52 PM

Not surprisingly, you have a mess. If I were you I would locate this FAR away from your AC condenser, unless you want to pay for some expensive service to have it fixed.

American Fabric Filter can custom make you a filter bag. I replaced the one on my smaller DC about 5 years ago and it improved the flow amazingly. Highly recommended. Another option would be to fit a pleated cartridge filter to your outlet. I’m sure you can get a replacement filter for a Grizzly, Jet or similar on Amazon or eBay for a reasonable cost.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#21 posted 01-21-2019 09:44 PM

Unless you want to buy a new AC, buy the replacement parts to install a pleated filter and collection bag. Plus, you have invaded the service space required around your electric meter. You may get a notice from your power company. I reuse my collection bag, and duct tape any small holes I put in it. Is your shop heated or cooled? Where are you located? Venting outside may be costing you money.

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

742 posts in 419 days


#22 posted 01-21-2019 11:28 PM

Good catch on blocking the electric meter. maybe that issue should be addressed first, then the dust collection.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#23 posted 01-22-2019 01:35 AM

If things go correctly and only the fine dust goes into the air, how would it affect my ac condenser? What is the issue?

As for a notice from the electrical company, this is located behind my gate and I haven’t seen them come out yet in months. When should I expect them to come out?


Unless you want to buy a new AC, buy the replacement parts to install a pleated filter and collection bag. Plus, you have invaded the service space required around your electric meter. You may get a notice from your power company. I reuse my collection bag, and duct tape any small holes I put in it. Is your shop heated or cooled? Where are you located? Venting outside may be costing you money.

- ibewjon


View tmasondarnell's profile

tmasondarnell

116 posts in 2297 days


#24 posted 01-22-2019 02:44 AM


: ). Stupid me. I threw that stuff away but yes that would solve my turbulence problem to an extent.

I was actually thinking about getting the 5” hose and make it do a ton of 90 degree turns to slow down the air before it hit the can. I just don’t know if that would provide backward pressure on the dust collector motor.

Did your dust collector come with a filter bag? If so use that over the can, then the air can escape and most particles can fall down into the can.

- RobS888

- Fuzzybearz

It would be better for you to put the restriction on the inlet/upstream side of the blower. Basically, at this point you have too much volume in the system for the exhaust line. You need to restrict the incoming volume. In theory, a restriction on the outlet will cause a back pressure which will restrict the volume, but it will also cause strain on all the fittings and the motor-also since you will be slowing the dust laden air down, the dust will start to collect in your pipes and fittings.

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#25 posted 01-22-2019 03:53 AM

Power company comes out to read the meter, usually every month. They may never complain, but it also might stop work on the meter if your power goes out, and the required working space is filled. Any dust collecting in the condenser fins plugs the spaces and stops or slows air flow,
which slows the cooling process, cutting performance, your AC runs longer, and your electric bill goes up.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#26 posted 01-22-2019 04:23 AM

I always thought they came out but figured they’d have told me or ask me to go into my gate? Could it possibly be metered elsewhere?

So with what I’ve done so far, should I use an air compressor and move all the sawdust that’s there?

I also don’t know why I didn’t think of it then, but I could’ve left the DC motor and a small shed then had hose leading away into a bin around the corner. Only now realizing it : /


Power company comes out to read the meter, usually every month. They may never complain, but it also might stop work on the meter if your power goes out, and the required working space is filled. Any dust collecting in the condenser fins plugs the spaces and stops or slows air flow,
which slows the cooling process, cutting performance, your AC runs longer, and your electric bill goes up.

- ibewjon


View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#27 posted 01-22-2019 12:33 PM

If your power is on, they are reading the meter. For the AC, shut off power to unit, and GENTLY bliw from the inside , out through the fins to clear dust. The fan sucks air in from the sides and blows it out the top. Still trying to figure out why you trashed the parts before having a working setup? You also stated you blocked one outlet? If the machine was designed with two outlets, you are really are trying to shove 10 pounds of ….... into a 1 pound bag.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3537 posts in 1988 days


#28 posted 01-22-2019 03:17 PM

I’ve read all the posts and all I can say is you’re making way more work than needed and IMO going about it the wrong way.

IMO a cyclone is the obvious answer. I don’t understand why are you opposed to a cyclone?

You will have a much more efficient disposal system & you’re blower is more than adequate.

If its set up properly, the exhaust outside will have no dust in it and will counter the cyclone drop somewhat.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#29 posted 01-22-2019 07:19 PM



If your power is on, they are reading the meter. For the AC, shut off power to unit, and GENTLY bliw from the inside , out through the fins to clear dust. The fan sucks air in from the sides and blows it out the top. Still trying to figure out why you trashed the parts before having a working setup? You also stated you blocked one outlet? If the machine was designed with two outlets, you are really are trying to shove 10 pounds of ….... into a 1 pound bag.

- ibewjon

Luckily it’s winter so it is off. Ill make sure to blow it off with your suggestions. Thanks for the catch.
Yes I blocked one outlet, and everything is making sense now about all the air coming in to create turbulence.


I ve read all the posts and all I can say is you re making way more work than needed and IMO going about it the wrong way.

IMO a cyclone is the obvious answer. I don t understand why are you opposed to a cyclone?

You will have a much more efficient disposal system & you re blower is more than adequate.

If its set up properly, the exhaust outside will have no dust in it and will counter the cyclone drop somewhat.
- rwe2156

It comes down to space and air efficiency. The Cyclone I had bought was 6” Inlet and Outlet while my dust collector was 8” and I had some 8” piping going around. So if I reduce it to 6” I lose alot of CFM but, my shed would also have to be like 3’ higher.

I agree, had I planned properly I would be done spent probaby 20% more money but 100% less headache and 200% less time. I’m one of those who has to do it the wrong way first to learn.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#30 posted 01-22-2019 10:13 PM

Ok. Just ordered some parts and emptied my bank account. Here is what i’m going to do.

Keep the DC in the shed because there are electrical components that need to be kept dry. One day i’ll make that shed really small to make electrical man happy.

I’m going to run 2×5” hoses from the two 5” DC outlets about 15-20 ft away into two different trash bins. I’d like to have it converge on one, but again the turbulence may be too much for one. Then i’m going to have 2×5” outlets in the barrels.

This is the overall picture

This is showing how im going to make the barrel

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

991 posts in 3301 days


#31 posted 01-22-2019 10:27 PM

Without either filter bags or pleated filters, I am afraid you will still be blowing dust all over. How many HP is the fan motor? Is this a commercial shop? I have a 2 HP collector, 5” duct around the shop, and I replaced the original bags with pleated filter and plastic collection bag, then added vortex cone later. My air is clean, and I added a Wen air cleaner for sanding dust from hand sanders. If you are working alone, I think part of the problem may be too large of a dust collector. You mentioned 8” duct? This should be a simple install.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 577 days


#32 posted 01-22-2019 10:45 PM

I angled the input and output in the Garbage Can to try and reduce the turbulence but you think that will still be too much?

3HP Semi commercial shop (it’s my garbage but side business) with 8” ducting down to 6” and then 4” at the machine. This is outside so I’m not too worried about the air, but I also don’t want a gianormous dust cloud rising from the cans.

The big problem with the pleated bags is that I don’t want to pay te $30 or $50 for each bag, but more than that, I then I have to make some rings to go around my garbage cans to hold the pleated bags. Though I still have the frame for the ones that bolted directly into the dust collector, the circumference doesn’t fit my garbage can.

I am getting 1000CFM at most ports.


Without either filter bags or pleated filters, I am afraid you will still be blowing dust all over. How many HP is the fan motor? Is this a commercial shop? I have a 2 HP collector, 5” duct around the shop, and I replaced the original bags with pleated filter and plastic collection bag, then added vortex cone later. My air is clean, and I added a Wen air cleaner for sanding dust from hand sanders. If you are working alone, I think part of the problem may be too large of a dust collector. You mentioned 8” duct? This should be a simple install.

- ibewjon


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