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Dust Collection Layout - Need Assistance

by Fuzzybearz
posted 12-05-2018 06:51 AM


36 replies so far

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

69 posts in 482 days


#1 posted 12-05-2018 08:45 AM

When I laid mine out I have three runs
When I needed to make a 90 turn, I used two 45s
I went 6 inch to all the machines, with a 6 inch port to my planer and to my jointer, a 4 and a 5 to the table saw, two fours to my band saw and router table

I had to change the ports on all the machines to get the air flow I wanted. Stepping down to 4 really restricts flow

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

589 posts in 2756 days


#2 posted 12-07-2018 01:37 AM

Adding to what fly2low says:
- Use 2 45s rather than 90s at every opportunity;
- A 6” opening has ((6^2) / (4^2)) = 36 / 16 = 225% more CFM capability. Extend the 8” wherever possible, converting to 6” to the machines, use a 4” by 6” connector at the machine. The 8” yields (8^2) / (6^2) = 64 / 36 or 77% additional CFM than the 6”.
- Do not put a bend or a diverter near the input to the DC – it’s best to let the air entering the DC to come in as straight as possible. Having said this, put a 2×45 degree diverter mid-run to get to the middle machine, if you have the ceiling space to do it.
- Install more ‘drop’ connectors (essentially, 90s (2×45)) mid-run for future access, and cap them off for now. This is the time to plan for additional connections.

In general, you have relatively short draws (the length of the runs), and maximizing duct diameter will give you plenty of suction.

MJCD

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1252 posts in 880 days


#3 posted 12-07-2018 02:04 AM

Start here: https://airhand.com/designing/

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

69 posts in 482 days


#4 posted 12-07-2018 02:15 AM

air handling is where I got my bellmouth collars and 5 inch pipe. Most of my piping is PVC, but 5 inch PVC can be found right next to the unicorn

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

69 posts in 482 days


#5 posted 12-07-2018 02:16 AM

The straight pipe into the DC should be about 48 inches – but sometimes hard to lay out. It dictated where my DC ended up in my shop

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

146 posts in 2076 days


#6 posted 12-07-2018 04:03 AM

Another vote for eliminating the 6” ductwork.

Assuming you are planning a single user shop, I would recommend you use the 8” pipe through the entire system and not step down to the 6”size. DC systems differ from HVAC forced air systems as the forced air system is a single input source to many outlets simultaneously. Home shop DC systems are a single input (e.g. tool) to a single outlet at the DC. Thus, there is no reason to step the system. Keep the large duct work until you get to the tools and then step down using the hose.

View Holbs's profile

Holbs

2213 posts in 2414 days


#7 posted 12-07-2018 04:40 AM

Can your 3 HP machine handle 8” ducting? Thought that was the realm of 5+ HP dust collection systems.
Is it possible to go simply diagonally across the shop instead of along the walls? I did the same layout when I did my 6” ducting. Have since converted to cutting straight across middle of shop instead.
At the end of your run, that would be around 30’ of length. Kind of far. If went diagonally, would drop down to low 20 foot range.

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

69 posts in 482 days


#8 posted 12-07-2018 04:51 AM

Holbs brings up a good point. You probably will not be able to generate enough airflow with 3 hp in 8 inch ducts to prevent the dust and debris from layering out in the 8 inch duct. Might stick with 6 inch

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5538 posts in 2878 days


#9 posted 12-07-2018 11:39 AM

I’ll echo the comments about the 8”, especially so if the incoming air is through a 4” duct. I’m thinking you’ll have clogs.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#10 posted 12-07-2018 01:54 PM

Red for sure if it were me. Shorter is better.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#11 posted 12-09-2018 02:31 AM

I believe I am right on the edge of 8” being too larger of diameter. The weird thing about my setup is my cyclone port is 6” so essential in one flow I am going DC 6” to 8” piping to 10” splitter) to to 6” piping to 5” piping down to 4” at the machine.

Not quite sure how the ups and downs will play out. Probably terribly, but I bought this tubing off of a guy who used the same 8” piping for his woodshop and he had longer runs. This is also the reason why you see me using a hodgepodge of different sizes. Definitely lesson learned.

As for the “Diagonal” comment. Yes. I planned this whole thing out terribly and it is costing me alot of time and money. But there is no way im going back to redo things unless this doesnt work. Im getting the motor rewired hopefully Ill get it up and running this weekend. Ill provide CFMss and a better picture of my shop.

Onto another thread, making sure I wired my things correctly

View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#12 posted 12-09-2018 03:42 AM

If all of your machines are 4” or less I would not use 8” in the mains. You need more airflow for verticals so I would go 6” in the mains and 4” in each vertical drop. You need a short 4” horizontal in each drop to prevent clogs. Going 4” from the machine into an 8” pipe will possibly cause clogs. In the photos you can see how I did the 6” mains, 6×6x4 y our horizontal to a 4” 90 for the drop. Some of my dedicated horizontal runs to one machine are 4”. Go ahead and reduce to 4” as soon as you leave a main going to a single machine.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#13 posted 12-09-2018 03:50 AM

Mike, Did you ever get a measure of your CFM? and how many HP is your DC? I really want my DC up and running to see the real world test.

View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#14 posted 12-09-2018 04:28 AM

I never measured my CFM but it seems to be sufficient. I used Bill Pence’s spreadsheet to calculate my flow to get everything calculated. My DC is a 3 hp.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

146 posts in 2076 days


#15 posted 12-09-2018 05:01 AM

Fuzzy, Your cyclone has a 6” inlet port and outfeeds to the DC. What is the diameter of the DC port?

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#16 posted 12-09-2018 06:58 PM

8” but I have it sized down to 6”.

Yes my whole thing is a mess. Once again, the product of not planning properly and buying things used. Cost me more money and headache this time around.


Fuzzy, Your cyclone has a 6” inlet port and outfeeds to the DC. What is the diameter of the DC port?

- WoodES


View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#17 posted 12-09-2018 09:51 PM

Here are 3 photos of my shop panoramic. As you can see if you zoom in is that I ran 6” on all of the shared main horizontals that served multiple machines then reduced to 4” for everything that was running to a single machine. Never run 6” drop to a 4” machine or you risk clogs.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

146 posts in 2076 days


#18 posted 12-10-2018 06:11 AM

Fuzzy, Given that you have reduced the DC inlet from 8” to 6” you’ve lost a considerable amount of the available pressure. You will only lose more if you increase the size of the runs back to 8” past the cyclone. I would keep the runs at 6” until you get to the tools, then drop to 4”. Another option, build a thein separator with 8” inlet & outlet, then use 8” for the runs.

I have the 2 hp DC with the 6” inlet and a thein separator. System is 6” until I reach the tool, then drops to 4” at the tool. My runs are much longer than yours and as you can see in the photo, I have plenty of suck.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#19 posted 12-10-2018 06:57 AM

I kmow that my initial restriction is 6” but what I dont know is how much of a loss I take in going 6 to 8 to 6 to 4 and the crazy hoopla my setup is.

I got the dc powered on today, I had it disassembled to make the switch longer. Unfortunately its been cold and rainy so I havent been able to mount this thing outside. Im really interested in my real world specs.

At this point, instead of redoing the runs which was painful, Im half tempted to drop a thousand for the 5hp. Much faster than redoing the runs.

Hopefully the real world numbers come back sufficient


Fuzzy, Given that you have reduced the DC inlet from 8” to 6” you ve lost a considerable amount of the available pressure. You will only lose more if you increase the size of the runs back to 8” upast the cyclone. I would keep the runs at 6” until you get to the tools, then drop to 4”. Another option, build a thein separator with 8” inlet & outlet, then use 8” for the runs.

I have the 2 hp DC with the 6” inlet and a thein separator. System is 6” until I reach the tool, then drops to 4” at the tool. My runs are much longer than yours and as you can see in the photo, I have plenty of suck.

- WoodES


View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#20 posted 12-10-2018 07:37 AM

Hey everyone. I just realized, why do I have a 6” cyclone in my system?

The dust collector and bin will be vented outside. There is no need to separate fines from large dust right?

The original intent of the cyclone was to have the fine dust puff out and get carried away by the wind and throw away the larger dust into the trash. But why not just have it all spit into my bin?

View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#21 posted 12-10-2018 11:14 AM



Fuzzy, Given that you have reduced the DC inlet from 8” to 6” you ve lost a considerable amount of the available pressure. You will only lose more if you increase the size of the runs back to 8” past the cyclone. I would keep the runs at 6” until you get to the tools, then drop to 4”. Another option, build a thein separator with 8” inlet & outlet, then use 8” for the runs.

I have the 2 hp DC with the 6” inlet and a thein separator. System is 6” until I reach the tool, then drops to 4” at the tool. My runs are much longer than yours and as you can see in the photo, I have plenty of suck.

- WoodES

With a 4” machine you may not have enough CFM to keep the 8” pipe clear.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View Holbs's profile

Holbs

2213 posts in 2414 days


#22 posted 12-10-2018 02:34 PM

Me thinks, more research and planning from the start would of saved you a bunch of time & money :)
Many discussions here of venting outside. If you live down south, great!
If it gets cold and you heat your workshop, the venting of outside now draws that heat out to be replaced by…. yep, more cold air.
I live in northern Nevada. 3HP DC over a SSD XL with 6” ducting. Where the highs have been in the high 30’s for past 7 days and probably for next 7 days. I couldn’t imagine the heating bill for this winter if I vented outside with my temp controlled shop.
In regards to the hesitation to edit/replace items in your dust collection system…yes, do it now. I had over 40’ of 26 gauge 6” HVAC metal duct with inefficient design. Been spending the last month replacing to 6” PVC and efficiency. Peace of mind.

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#23 posted 12-10-2018 03:12 PM

Its in my garage which isnt climate controlled. Im up here in the nw so its cold, 30s this last week but manageable.

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1252 posts in 880 days


#24 posted 12-11-2018 04:32 AM


.

At this point, instead of redoing the runs which was painful, Im half tempted to drop a thousand for the 5hp. Much faster than redoing the runs.

- Fuzzybearz

You are approaching this backwards.

Always start with your shop/machine layout and understand the CFM requirements of each machine. Second, design the ductwork to deliver the required CFM, at proper transport velocities. Once you have the ductwork designed you will understand the pressure drops in the system. With the CFM and pressure drops calculated you can then select the proper DC to do the job.

Read and understand the info at the link I posted near the top before you go any further. You’ll thank me later.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

146 posts in 2076 days


#25 posted 12-11-2018 05:09 AM

Fuzzy,

I think you have enough suck in the 3 hp machine. My runs are as long or longer than yours (~50’ for the longest run) and I only have a 2 hp machine with 6” ducts. I have plenty of suck for most operations, except the jointer & planner operation. To solve that I put a 2nd trash can separator between the tool and the 6” duct. That seems to solve problem until the trash can gets about 3/4 full. Then it fills up the large drum under the separator (hence the picture).

If it were me, I would keep the 3 hp, convert back to the 8” inlet, build an 8” thein separator and leave the 8” duct work. You can always post the cyclone on craiglist to recoup some of the cost.

Good luck

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#26 posted 12-11-2018 10:04 AM

I think ive asked this on here before a while back, but is there any issues with me just running thd dust collector to vent freely outside? No pleated bag?

Someone told me id have a loss of suction, but it makes no sense. The duct is sucking and blowing out the other end. I dont need to have amything to catch the debris on the other end to retain suction. Right?

I looked at the CFm between 6 and 8” it is huge difference which is why i want 8”. Besides it comes with an 8” outlet and rated for 8” so it should work


Fuzzy,

I think you have enough suck in the 3 hp machine. My runs are as long or longer than yours (~50 for the longest run) and I only have a 2 hp machine with 6” ducts. I have plenty of suck for most operations, except the jointer & planner operation. To solve that I put a 2nd trash can separator between the tool and the 6” duct. That seems to solve problem until the trash can gets about 3/4 full. Then it fills up the large drum under the separator (hence the picture).

If it were me, I would keep the 3 hp, convert back to the 8” inlet, build an 8” thein separator and leave the 8” duct work. You can always post the cyclone on craiglist to recoup some of the cost.

Good luck

- WoodES


View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#27 posted 12-11-2018 12:35 PM

There is a wealth of info on this website. I used the static calculator spreadsheet – it is on the ducting menu.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#28 posted 12-11-2018 03:25 PM

Ive read through parts of that website. Extremely dense in some areas and he is extremely conservative on the projections. According to that calculator I should be fine (if I did it correctly) but technically according to his chart I should never use a 8” pipe for 3HP motor so it somewhat contradicts itself. Or maybe im looking at it wrong.


There is a wealth of info on this website. I used the static calculator spreadsheet – it is on the ducting menu.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

- MikeDilday


View Holbs's profile

Holbs

2213 posts in 2414 days


#29 posted 12-12-2018 02:08 AM

I am still confused as to why you think 8” ducting is appropriate size ducting for a 3 horsepower Powermatic 1900 rated CFM with 14” impeller. I highly doubt you are actually at 1900 CFM average, even at the 8” inlet. Unless that 14” impeller is what makes the difference. Not including bends and distance and smaller sized transitions.

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

View WoodES's profile

WoodES

146 posts in 2076 days


#30 posted 12-12-2018 03:54 AM

I think you are down to a trial & error test. One with 6” setup you have originally, and one with 100% 8”. The nice thing about dust collection, the more it sucks the better it is….

View MikeDilday's profile

MikeDilday

255 posts in 844 days


#31 posted 12-12-2018 03:58 AM



Ive read through parts of that website. Extremely dense in some areas and he is extremely conservative on the projections. According to that calculator I should be fine (if I did it correctly) but technically according to his chart I should never use a 8” pipe for 3HP motor so it somewhat contradicts itself. Or maybe im looking at it wrong.

There is a wealth of info on this website. I used the static calculator spreadsheet – it is on the ducting menu.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

- MikeDilday

- Fuzzybearz

I am by no means an expert but I did a lot of research when I designed my system. As I understand it as the air flow CFM increases inside of a 4” pipe or a 4” flex the resistance increases exponentially. The dust collector is limited to the CFM it can pull thru the 4” pipe. If you increase the pipe size to 8” the velocity of the air decreases. This decrease in velocity potentially could cause piles of sawdust inside of the pipe. There is a minimum velocity required to keep the dust suspended inside the pipe. That is why it is not just as simple as going to a larger pipe without doing the calculations required.

-- Michael Dilday, Suffolk, Va.

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#32 posted 12-12-2018 05:58 AM

Well. The powermatic by default is 8” outlet. So isnt that a reasonable, maybe not the best, but reasonable assumption that it can take an 8”?

I believe the rated CFM is 1750 at 8”. What is it that makes you skeptical?

Also sorry everyone….since I made the change to take out the cyclone I have to rebuild my little shed and now wait on the 8” flex tube that was $100 : / I got alot of brand new cyclone, flex dust and other things thatll probably just wallow om craigslist. Unfortunately the market is small


I am still confused as to why you think 8” ducting is appropriate size ducting for a 3 horsepower Powermatic 1900 rated CFM with 14” impeller. I highly doubt you are actually at 1900 CFM average, even at the 8” inlet. Unless that 14” impeller is what makes the difference. Not including bends and distance and smaller sized transitions.

- Holbs


View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#33 posted 12-12-2018 05:59 AM

I ubderstand it the same. Unfortunately ive attempted that spreadsheet several times with no luck. Id really like to see calculated vs actual. Ome day ill get actual, probably in the new year : /

Ive read through parts of that website. Extremely dense in some areas and he is extremely conservative on the projections. According to that calculator I should be fine (if I did it correctly) but technically according to his chart I should never use a 8” pipe for 3HP motor so it somewhat contradicts itself. Or maybe im looking at it wrong.

There is a wealth of info on this website. I used the static calculator spreadsheet – it is on the ducting menu.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

- MikeDilday

- Fuzzybearz

I am by no means an expert but I did a lot of research when I designed my system. As I understand it as the air flow CFM increases inside of a 4” pipe or a 4” flex the resistance increases exponentially. The dust collector is limited to the CFM it can pull thru the 4” pipe. If you increase the pipe size to 8” the velocity of the air decreases. This decrease in velocity potentially could cause piles of sawdust inside of the pipe. There is a minimum velocity required to keep the dust suspended inside the pipe. That is why it is not just as simple as going to a larger pipe without doing the calculations required.

- MikeDilday


View Holbs's profile

Holbs

2213 posts in 2414 days


#34 posted 12-12-2018 06:23 AM


I believe the rated CFM is 1750 at 8”. What is it that makes you skeptical?

Only reason why I am skeptical is because my own research about dust collection motors vs claimed CFM vs actual real world CFM vs duct piping size/bends. Other posts in the past about CFM claims by manufacturers are….highly in doubt. And that is before ducting structure/cyclones/Thein baffles are added.
Now..if you have already invested into 8” ducting, go for it.
I just wanted to toss out “possible” considerations to those who are at the beginning phases of dust collection.

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#35 posted 12-12-2018 06:32 AM

I’m skeptical too : ) Just staying optimistic.

I took another shot at the excel sheet with Bill Pentz. I know why I got confused, I was filling in the table and it was updating numbers below it, not above it. That thing has fooled me more than once.

Anyways my losses with what i’m running according to that spreadsheet is conservatively is only 4.5 WC loss which I dont know what that calculates into SP? Not having any filters or separators really helps with keeping the losses low. I used a different SP calculator for home ducting and threw in numbers about twice as big as what im actually running and only got 0.6 SP. Not sure if that is in the ballpark with my setup.

I also agree about the company HP claims, and am interested to see real world. I also realized I have 8 to 6” adapter I can just hook up and see what CFM I get.

I believe the rated CFM is 1750 at 8”. What is it that makes you skeptical?

Only reason why I am skeptical is because my own research about dust collection motors vs claimed CFM vs actual real world CFM vs duct piping size/bends. Other posts in the past about CFM claims by manufacturers are….highly in doubt. And that is before ducting structure/cyclones/Thein baffles are added.
Now..if you have already invested into 8” ducting, go for it.
I just wanted to toss out “possible” considerations to those who are at the beginning phases of dust collection.

- Holbs


View Fuzzybearz's profile

Fuzzybearz

104 posts in 454 days


#36 posted 01-14-2019 03:04 AM

Well guys. The system isn’t completely done as I need to install my automated blast gates grngate.

So as it stands I’m getting anywhere from 800 to 1000 cfm in my system with only one gate open. With 2 open, depending on the location I’m getting 600 to 800 cfm. This is all suitable for most applications other than a 14”+ planer.

I’m running a PM 075 with 3hp 220v on initial 8” run restricted down to 6, 5 ,4” at various locations. I still need to add in 2 more drops (the dotted lines) but I can’t imagine cfm dropping that much more.

My system isn’t even totally optimized as it goes between different sizes with the hodge pod the I had. Most calculators and tables would’ve told you that 8” on 3hp is impossible, but it works. It makes sense too, the manufacturer provides an 8” inlet.

I just want everyone to know to not take the calculator as gospel and more as guidance. Who knows though maybe this thing will break down, I bought it used and it’s already at least 5 years old and I can tell ya I bought it from another woodworker who put it to good use

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