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View BroncoBrian's profile

Dust Collector: Time to rethink the design and placement

by BroncoBrian
posted 11-26-2018 02:25 AM


22 replies so far

View BattleRidge's profile

BattleRidge

120 posts in 728 days


#1 posted 11-26-2018 06:11 AM

You might want to keep in mind that whenever you move air out of the shop, replacement air will have to come back into the shop from somewhere (essentially from the outside in some way). In the wintertime and during cold temperatures, when your warm interior air is pumped outside through the DC, the incoming air will need to be heated and thus an added expense on utilities.

Additionally, without sufficient allowance made for the incoming make-up air (an open vent, etc.) there is the chance that the make-up air could come from sources such as propane or natural gas vent flues or through a chimney thereby creating a dangerous situation of pulling carbon monoxide into the living / working spaces or causing the heating appliances to not function correctly.

One of my thoughts on dust collection (particularly with a bag or other filters of 5 microns or greater) was that while it can capture the larger particles, can it actually cause an increase in suspension of the finer dust in comparison to allowing it to fall or gather in the actual machine area.?.?.? Fortunately (with my tight budget) I was able to obtain a new Grizzly 2hp DC with a one micron canister filter for less than $250 (the seller purchased it but then purchased a larger unit at an auction and never put the Grizzly in service) for my system to avoid some of the concern.

In regard to the fine dust, if the paddles are used while the DC is turned off and time is given for it to settle into the collection bag, for the most part it shouldn’t really immediately be sucked back into the filter. I recently purchased a Super Dust Deputy from Woodcraft during a scratch and dent sale for $20 (other than the cardboard box being damaged, it was in perfect new shape) and plan on connecting it to the system at some point.

It may be an option to build a weatherproof and insulated shelter outside of your main shop (thereby not taking away valuable shop floor space), and installing both the DC and a Super Dust Deputy / Cyclone separator in the enclosure, and allowing the air to vent back into your main shop from that room to limit the heat loss, though this doesn’t really eliminate the 2 micron or less dust – unless you would place appropriate filters between the DC shelter room and the shop workspace.

Have you looked into the option of installing an air filtration unit in your shop to supplement your DC system? Being located in Colorado Springs, CO, this might be your best solution.

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

88 posts in 609 days


#2 posted 11-26-2018 07:37 AM

Agree with battleRidge
You might check with
https://wynnenv.com/advanced-nanofiber/
to see if they have a filter that would work for you

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

749 posts in 423 days


#3 posted 11-26-2018 08:43 AM

I think the dust collection unit you have is decent. I don’t think you gave thought on how to collect the wading dust in the air. The dust collectors capture the dust, shavings & chips from your equipment, but does not collect the wading dust in the air. You need a “Air Filtration System”. I would check into a air filtration system, such as the Wen 3speed remote system. $126 at Home Depot or online. This is the system in my shop to collect wading dust, This hangs from the ceiling. For health reasons, you should. Also use a dust mask when sanding.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5756 posts in 3005 days


#4 posted 11-26-2018 11:30 AM

The answer to your questions are yes, and yes. Exhausting outside is a great way to reduce the interior dust. Do keep the cautions mentioned above in mind, especially about the flues. One other thing, putting the whole thing outside might mean the bag will fill and you won’t know it…that is the biggest mess you will ever see.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4190 posts in 2500 days


#5 posted 11-26-2018 11:43 AM

I used to have that dust collector and it worked very well. I did not notice any dust coming out the filter.

View Wildwood's profile

Wildwood

2742 posts in 2646 days


#6 posted 11-26-2018 01:44 PM

I have thought about moving DC outside and building weather proof small shed to house it. Problem having is determining correct height off the ground. Don’t want sharp bend in my flex hose, or 4” PVC fitting & pipe to use. Don’t think sealing pipe or plug wire coming into shed from DC would be a problem sealing on either in or out side of wall.

If look at this reference will see canisters need a break in period where they develop what they call cake (dust lining on canister walls). Guess the amount of cake is kind of a SWAG have no idea how would measure that and didn’t see amount listed in reference.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/beginnnerscorner.cfm

I have .5 micron WYNN cartridge without paddles, have no problem cleaning.

-- Bill

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

5227 posts in 4472 days


#7 posted 11-26-2018 02:28 PM

I don’t know what the term “wading dust” means. Info if you will.

-- [email protected]

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

875 posts in 2470 days


#8 posted 11-26-2018 04:59 PM

Redoak – You should check that with a flashlight and the lights off. You will see that the DC does let the smallest of the dust out.

I’ve thought about the dust filtration systems but I don’t think that is the best answer. Every DC has small dust in its exhaust and the filtration systems only work so quickly. So the most dangerous stuff is in the air and you are breathing it.

The paddles drop the dust onto the top of the vortex, then when the machine turns on, it will blow it back up because it has no way to fall into the bag. I’ve seen this when cleaning and removing the top to find 4” of fine dust above the Vortex.

I might build an enclosed cylinder with a 6” exhaust hose out and see what happens.

-- A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4190 posts in 2500 days


#9 posted 11-26-2018 05:56 PM

Can not check but there was no dust on anything near the dust collector. Anyway, I moved on to a better unit of 5 hp and a cyclone. There is no visible dust coming thru the filter.

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1488 posts in 2148 days


#10 posted 11-26-2018 06:00 PM

I went through the same process Brian. I also had a Jet DC1100.
I have a very small garage shop and every bit of floor space is precious.
If you can move the whole dust collector outside then that is the best solution. That was not an option for me.
I see that you are not interested in a cyclone but let me give you something to consider…..
I modified my DC to remove the filter all together. The Oneida Super Dust Deputy took it’s place.
I stacked them on top of each other and bolted them to the wall. I vent the blowers exhaust air out through a 6” dryer vent.
This actually takes up less floor space than my original DC1100 did. I see no visible dust on the bushes outside by the vent so no problem there. My Nat Gas water heater is in the garage so my garage is well vented anyway. Replacing the air vented by the DC is not an issue. I do use an Air Filtering unit suspended from the rafters. It is amazing how much crap it grabs from the air. I have been working with mahogany the last couple of weeks and my filter is now red!

Here is a link to my DC build. Might be some information you can use.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/388617

-- When you leave your shop for the night, make sure you can always count to 10.

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

875 posts in 2470 days


#11 posted 11-28-2018 12:49 AM



I went through the same process Brian. I also had a Jet DC1100.
I have a very small garage shop and every bit of floor space is precious.
If you can move the whole dust collector outside then that is the best solution. That was not an option for me.
I see that you are not interested in a cyclone but let me give you something to consider…..
I modified my DC to remove the filter all together. The Oneida Super Dust Deputy took it s place.
I stacked them on top of each other and bolted them to the wall. I vent the blowers exhaust air out through a 6” dryer vent.

- fivecodys

This is what I am looking for. Thanks. I am going to work on this and I’ll follow up with you when I am done. I was working with purple heart and mahogany. Both make a fine dust and both dangerous to breathe.

Thanks again!

-- A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer.

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1488 posts in 2148 days


#12 posted 11-28-2018 04:05 AM

There is a ton of good material available for dust collection design & set up. As you can see from my link, the guys here are a great resource. I also picked the brains of the guys at Oneida.
Good luck with your build. I look forward to seeing your progress.

-- When you leave your shop for the night, make sure you can always count to 10.

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

749 posts in 423 days


#13 posted 11-28-2018 06:15 AM

Might be time to replace the canister filter. that only last so long before the filter’s pores open up.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3538 posts in 1992 days


#14 posted 11-28-2018 04:54 PM


You might want to keep in mind that whenever you move air out of the shop, replacement air will have to come back into the shop from somewhere (essentially from the outside in some way).

OK, I’ll say it. This is an urban myth. The only way this could be an issue in real life is you’re running a big blower and leaving running. Intermittent, normal duty use is no issue.

I hate filters, too mostly because they degrade the performance by creating back pressure.

I have the exact same unit, BB and I exhaust outside with simply a piece of 4” flex straight thru the wall. I don’t know why need for a baffle just go directly off the 4” opening on the housing.

I highly recommend a cyclone rather than blowing shavings and sawdust directly outside. If you do, you will have to build some kind of collection box. Plus, its better not to have material going directly through the blower it will last a lot longer.

If you have a cyclone, or plan to use one, you need to keep the blower inside or else you will loose track of when the can is full.

If you’re concerned about the noise, you can build a soundproofed closet around the blower.

But in reality, the machines make more noise then the blower.3

Hope this helps!!

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5987 posts in 3325 days


#15 posted 11-28-2018 06:39 PM

Any cyclone will be an upgrade from a single stage unit. I use a full size 2hp wall mounted cyclone and it does great. It makes those portable cyclones look small by comparison.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4190 posts in 2500 days


#16 posted 11-28-2018 06:48 PM

No myth to it. That DC will take about the equivalent of a 10×10 every minute. It is not just hot or cold air but the humidity.

I notice the humidity going up significantly in the summer when I run my DC.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5756 posts in 3005 days


#17 posted 11-28-2018 08:12 PM

I’m with Redoak on the make up air. It may not be a problem in some areas, but you are drawing air into the room from somewhere. If you aren’t then your DC is blowing any air out.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View BroncoBrian's profile

BroncoBrian

875 posts in 2470 days


#18 posted 11-29-2018 04:44 AM

Redoak – I solved the humidity problem by living in Colorado.

I highly recommend a cyclone rather than blowing shavings and sawdust directly outside. If you do, you will have to build some kind of collection box. Plus, its better not to have material going directly through the blower it will last a lot longer.

I might go that way. So you are separating the chips prior to the blower, the just exhaust whatever is left? That seems simple enough. I think the Jet Vortex does a pretty good job keeping the chips in the bad, and changing that is simple enough. It is the crap on top and the filters are +$200-$250 which is pretty dumb since they still allow dust to float around.

-- A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer.

View Jim Finn's profile

Jim Finn

2745 posts in 3434 days


#19 posted 11-29-2018 12:53 PM

I had a similar issue with dust so I moved my dust collector outside my shop into a small metal shed. I had to build the base of the walls up a foot so the dust bag would fit. I then installed a 6” duct from the outside to right at the equipment for makeup air. When I used one piece of equipment I opened up it’s blast gate for the dust collector and the one to the outside vent. The air that is exhausted is drawn from the outside vent and takes the dust out with the air coming across the equipment. Works for me.

-- No PHD just a DD214

View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1823 posts in 1919 days


#20 posted 11-29-2018 12:58 PM

No myth at all! If you have a well sealed shop area (I suspect most of us do not) even a small dust collector venting outside can create a vacuum in the building. The biggest issue for us, and it’ll vary based on location, is if you have conditioned air in the shop. It will remove all the conditioned air quickly, leaving air leaks around windows and doors to refill the shop and making hvac systems work overtime to try to keep up.
I’m building a cyclone, 5hp 16” impeller (Bill Pentz design- lookup his site and grab a fresh coffee!) and I’m going to mount my blower & filter in the attic area (which is open in my shop- the insulation is under the metal roof) with the cyclone and collection drum outside under a carport (where my compressor is).

View Robert's profile

Robert

3538 posts in 1992 days


#21 posted 11-29-2018 05:52 PM

OK….......So you can’t exhaust outside unless you want to reheat the air you’re losing.

So you open the door a few times during the day, or worse, unload some lumber how much heat did you lose there?

Guess I’m saying the benefit of exhausting outside an bypassing a filter is worth the cost of heating the lost air.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1823 posts in 1919 days


#22 posted 11-29-2018 06:20 PM

Opening a door is in no way the same thing. Sure try to keep the door closed as much as possible but here are some real numbers for you to chew on
Jet claims 1100cfm, let’s say OP gets an honest 500 cfm.
Let’s say he has a 20×30ft shop with a 9ft ceiling (5400 cubic feet)
(500cfmx60min)/5400= 5.5 air changes per hour. That’s complete air changes. 500cfm blowing outside will remove all the air in that hypothetical shop once in just over 10 minutes. HVAC can’t keep up with that. If yours is working, that’s great but there are major drawbacks to venting outside, unless you’re in an open barn type shop.

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