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View Poplarguy's profile

Accuracy: Miter saw vs TS Miter sled

by Poplarguy
posted 11-20-2018 05:19 PM


41 replies so far

View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1759 posts in 1884 days


#1 posted 11-20-2018 05:34 PM

I have not used the incra sled but I’ve been thrilled with their miter gauge and router plate fwiw
You’ll be much happier with any sled coming from the miter saw.

View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1759 posts in 1884 days


#2 posted 11-20-2018 05:37 PM

This caught my eye recently, if you do a lot of frames it seems like a handy setup. Not a replacement for a sled or good miter gauge though
https://woodworker.com/cast-iron-miter-trimmer-mssu-876-782.asp?search=Miter%20trimmer&searchmode=2

View Poplarguy's profile

Poplarguy

30 posts in 367 days


#3 posted 11-20-2018 05:53 PM

Thank you Grant, yes I’m running their router plate, LS Positioner on the router and a box joint jig for the TS and I know they make quality stuff for sure.

I’ve seen those miter trimmers, but I believe they do need to be cut with a miter saw first, then run through that trimmer. So there’s now 2 steps to each cut. Plus, I don’t see it being an easy thing to force a blade to chop through, say, a 1” x 2.5” wide cherry or oak frame!

View pottz's profile

pottz

5934 posts in 1461 days


#4 posted 11-20-2018 06:11 PM



Thank you Grant, yes I m running their router plate, LS Positioner on the router and a box joint jig for the TS and I know they make quality stuff for sure.

I ve seen those miter trimmers, but I believe they do need to be cut with a miter saw first, then run through that trimmer. So there s now 2 steps to each cut. Plus, I don t see it being an easy thing to force a blade to chop through, say, a 1” x 2.5” wide cherry or oak frame!

- Poplarguy


i have one and if you like perfect corners it will get it done.yes its an extra step but for frames its the way too go.they shave a very thin slice off so you need to cut your pieces close to finish length then clean it up with the trimmer.

-- sawdust the bigger the pile the bigger my smile-larry,so cal.

View Kazooman's profile

Kazooman

1346 posts in 2429 days


#5 posted 11-20-2018 06:14 PM



Thank you Grant, yes I m running their router plate, LS Positioner on the router and a box joint jig for the TS and I know they make quality stuff for sure.

I ve seen those miter trimmers, but I believe they do need to be cut with a miter saw first, then run through that trimmer. So there s now 2 steps to each cut. Plus, I don t see it being an easy thing to force a blade to chop through, say, a 1” x 2.5” wide cherry or oak frame!

- Poplarguy

I have one of the original Lion miter trimmers. You are correct that you make a rough cut first and then clean it up with the trimmer. You do not take off large bites of wood. You take thin shavings. Once you get the fence set accurately every single miter will be dead nuts on 45 degrees and the mating surfaces will be as smooth as glass. You cannot beat these for picture frames.

The other option is to use a plane with a shooting board.

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

10731 posts in 1615 days


#6 posted 11-20-2018 06:22 PM

I use the Incra HD1000 miter gauge and it has virtually replaced my cross cut sled. I can dial it in to dead on miters when necessary. Use a ZCI and add a sacrificial face to the fence to back up the cut and I think you can get clean cuts at dead 45 repeatedly at much less cost than the full sled. Not that I would discourage owning the sled! I just see at is being better suited for larger work. I think the miter gauge would be sufficient for making frames.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View John Smith's profile

John Smith

1969 posts in 639 days


#7 posted 11-20-2018 07:02 PM

one of the better investments I ever made was the old cast iron guillotine trimmer.
if you plan to do much precise miter work, it is well worth checking into.

.

.

-- I am a painter. That's what I do. I paint things --

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2786 days


#8 posted 11-20-2018 07:33 PM

You might also consider using a shooting board

https://youtu.be/azyxM5lNOCo

Disclaimer I have done this myself but it’s on my bucket list.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2421 posts in 2275 days


#9 posted 11-20-2018 07:38 PM

Shooting board for me. That’s the only way to satisfy the perfectionist inside :)

-- Aj

View Bill_Steele's profile

Bill_Steele

555 posts in 2208 days


#10 posted 11-20-2018 07:49 PM

I think a table saw sled or a miter gauge (a good one) will be more accurate than a miter saw.

I’m considering making a jig like the one in this video.

Not only is it important that you can dial-in repeatable accurate angles, but you must also have accurate length parts. The sides have to be exactly the same length. I think a shooting board would definitely help when you need to remove a sliver of wood to get a tight fit. I wonder though how a small change in the length affects the fit when you have multiple parts.

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

1746 posts in 1971 days


#11 posted 11-20-2018 08:13 PM

+1 Miter jig
Either make/buy a TS miter sled,
OR
make a 45 miter jig for miter/chop saw
(use blade set for 90, jig is trimmed to exactly 90, while blade cuts roughly in middle, into (2) 45’s by cutting ends on each side blade)
Forget which thread had a chop saw miter jig posted, but I know several examples exist.
Chop saw miter jig works best with full thickness blades to reduce wobble, especially on sliding miter saw.

Best Luck.

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 980 days


#12 posted 11-20-2018 10:19 PM


This caught my eye recently, if you do a lot of frames it seems like a handy setup. Not a replacement for a sled or good miter gauge though
https://woodworker.com/cast-iron-miter-trimmer-mssu-876-782.asp?search=Miter%20trimmer&searchmode=2

- GrantA


one of the better investments I ever made was the old cast iron guillotine trimmer.
if you plan to do much precise miter work, it is well worth checking into.

.

.

- John Smith

It’s the other way around…a miter or table saw, no matter what you do to it, is not a replacement for that tool. I also make a lot of picture frames {year around} and there is no way I would do it without a miter trimmer. I got mine from Rockler. It wasn’t exactly cheap, but it will make perfect miters every time. You still have to cut a 45 close to the length, you don’t use the trimmer to cut through a solid board at 45 degrees. It will shave a very thin “see thru” piece of wood off the frame or you can shave off like 1/8” if you have to, but it works better taking a little at a time.
One other suggestion is to make a framing table to glue the frames together…it is very easy and works way better than any store bought clamp set up.

Edit: one last piece of info, you really must make certain that you are working with dead perfect straight and square boards before you try to miter them into a frame. Any aspect of the wood that is not perfectly straight and dead perfect square will not result in a perfect miter.

View Poplarguy's profile

Poplarguy

30 posts in 367 days


#13 posted 11-20-2018 11:31 PM


This caught my eye recently, if you do a lot of frames it seems like a handy setup. Not a replacement for a sled or good miter gauge though
https://woodworker.com/cast-iron-miter-trimmer-mssu-876-782.asp?search=Miter%20trimmer&searchmode=2

- GrantA

one of the better investments I ever made was the old cast iron guillotine trimmer.
if you plan to do much precise miter work, it is well worth checking into.

.

.

- John Smith

It s the other way around…a miter or table saw, no matter what you do to it, is not a replacement for that tool. I also make a lot of picture frames {year around} and there is no way I would do it without a miter trimmer. I got mine from Rockler. It wasn t exactly cheap, but it will make perfect miters every time. You still have to cut a 45 close to the length, you don t use the trimmer to cut through a solid board at 45 degrees. It will shave a very thin “see thru” piece of wood off the frame or you can shave off like 1/8” if you have to, but it works better taking a little at a time.
One other suggestion is to make a framing table to glue the frames together…it is very easy and works way better than any store bought clamp set up.

Edit: one last piece of info, you really must make certain that you are working with dead perfect straight and square boards before you try to miter them into a frame. Any aspect of the wood that is not perfectly straight and dead perfect square will not result in a perfect miter.

- msinc

Thank you, that is helpful info. I’m looking into those miter trimmers now, it seems my first impression might’ve been a bit off. That might be the way to go.

I appreciate the info from all.

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

1222 posts in 2711 days


#14 posted 11-21-2018 01:02 AM

-- Jerry

View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1759 posts in 1884 days


#15 posted 11-21-2018 01:37 AM

Reading the comments in favor of the trimmer, you seriously might consider getting one of those a d a handsaw miter box, no noisy tools, virtually dust free and a pleasure to use!

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 980 days


#16 posted 11-21-2018 03:24 AM


Thank you, that is helpful info. I m looking into those miter trimmers now, it seems my first impression might’ve been a bit off. That might be the way to go.

I appreciate the info from all.

- Poplarguy

Actually I just realized I lied…sorry about that…I didn’t get my miter trimmer from Rockler, I got mine from Highland Woodworking. I did not opt for the “top trim attachment” or the “measuring attachment”. The manual miter box saw might not be a bad idea either, I don’t use one, but I can see how it might be an advantage especially with certain wood types. With the miter trimmer you don’t have to be real close in your initial cut, it just has to be ballpark at best. the hand saw just might help to prevent splitting or a power saw gunching up the wood right where you are trying to get a perfect miter. Here are a few photos of some bald cypress frames done with the trimmer:

View Rich's profile

Rich

4799 posts in 1066 days


#17 posted 11-21-2018 04:24 AM


- msinc

This is an example of where grain and color matching is more important than a couple of thousandths of an inch gap at the miter.

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

View Poplarguy's profile

Poplarguy

30 posts in 367 days


#18 posted 11-21-2018 11:59 AM

Oddly, after discussing this with a friend it appears an acquaintance of his has an older CTD double miter saw tucked away in his garage that he’s wanting to get rid of for not more than the price of a miter trimmer. It’d need a new set of blades but is in good running condition.

How accurate are these things?

Would this be the end-all way to go for the most accurate cuts in a fast manner? Downside is I’d have another tool on the floor, if that could be considered a downside…

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

10731 posts in 1615 days


#19 posted 11-21-2018 02:00 PM

I don’t know anything about that saw Poplarguy. Hell, I’ve never even heard of a double miter saw. But that thing looks like a beast. So yes, you should definitely buy it! ;-)

But in all seriousness, without knowing anything about those tools, it looks like a heavy-duty pro-level industrial machine. So I’d be willing to bet that it’s the production shop solution for clean, matching miters.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 980 days


#20 posted 11-21-2018 02:12 PM


!
This is an example of where grain and color matching is more important than a couple of thousandths of an inch gap at the miter.

- Rich

You might not be the biggest jerkass I have run across…..but rest assured you are in the top 3!!!! You are wrong as usual. What does your hero tig frag say about using the boards you have when that is all you have?? I didn’t post this for you to critique but I understand that a jackass cannot help himself, you do it to everyone. Is it alcoholism??? Seriously dude, go get yourself a drink and calm down.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 980 days


#21 posted 11-21-2018 02:15 PM


!
This is an example of where grain and color matching is more important than a couple of thousandths of an inch gap at the miter.

- Rich

You might not be the biggest jerkass I have run across…..but rest assured you are in the top 3!!!! You are wrong as usual. What does your hero tig frag say about using the boards you have when that is all you have?? I didn t post this for you to critique but I understand that a jackass cannot help himself, you do it to everyone. Is it alcoholism??? Seriously dude, go get yourself a drink and calm down. Don’t bother to waste your time with some stupid jackass typical come back…I am done with Lumberjerks, especially you. Sooner or later the moron that runs this site will realize who the asshole is that is making decent people go away and do something about it.

- msinc


View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 980 days


#22 posted 11-21-2018 02:16 PM

!
This is an example of where grain and color matching is more important than a couple of thousandths of an inch gap at the miter.

- Rich

You might not be the biggest jerkass I have run across…..but rest assured you are in the top 3!!!! You are wrong as usual. What does your hero tig frag say about using the boards you have when that is all you have?? Oh wait, he’s dead!!! Maybe you can dig him up, shock him back to life and the two of you can get married…..I didn’t post this for you to critique, but I understand that a jackass cannot help himself, you do it to everyone. Is it alcoholism??? Seriously dude, go get yourself a drink and calm down. Don’t bother to waste your time with some stupid jackass typical come back…I am done with Lumberjerks, especially you. Sooner or later the moron that runs this site will realize who the asshole is that is making decent people go away and do something about it.

- msinc

- msinc


View GrantA's profile

GrantA

1759 posts in 1884 days


#23 posted 11-21-2018 02:17 PM

I don’t have a dog in this fight but msinc I really think Rich was complimenting your work, saying you did an excellent job on grain and color matching.
How about I get you both a drink and we all get along?

View Robert's profile

Robert

3512 posts in 1957 days


#24 posted 11-21-2018 02:37 PM

Grant,

I miter sled is a good, inexpensive option and wouldn’t involve an additional tool in the shop.

The can be made integral to the sled or made to mount to an existing sled.

Just Google “miter sled” and you’ll get some ideas.

FWIW, and I don’t do a lot of picture frames, I don’t rely on miter saws for accuracy. I get them close and then use a shooting board.

Whether a shooting board or miter trimmer, I just think a knife edge is going to give a cleaner cut compared to a saw.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Poplarguy's profile

Poplarguy

30 posts in 367 days


#25 posted 11-21-2018 02:53 PM

Thank you for the suggestion on the shooting board/plane.

I guess I’m looking at the shooting board option as something that would be very difficult to ensure exact lengths of opposing sides, which would negate any accuracy of the miter itself. I’m also wondering if that might be the case with the trimmer as well?

It also seems that’s adding a lot of handwork to doing 50 or more frames, which is precisely what I’m looking to reduce. Might be a case of me reducing the time I spend sanding/filling inaccurate miters but replacing that time with having to run each through a plane/shooting board.

Doing a bit of research on that double miter saw now, serious questions as to whether that would yield exactly what I’m getting now as far as results or not though.

View pottz's profile

pottz

5934 posts in 1461 days


#26 posted 11-21-2018 02:53 PM



I don t have a dog in this fight but msinc I really think Rich was complimenting your work, saying you did an excellent job on grain and color matching.
How about I get you both a drink and we all get along?

- GrantA


ditto,ill drink to that!-lol.

-- sawdust the bigger the pile the bigger my smile-larry,so cal.

View Rich's profile

Rich

4799 posts in 1066 days


#27 posted 11-21-2018 03:20 PM


I don t have a dog in this fight but msinc I really think Rich was complimenting your work, saying you did an excellent job on grain and color matching.
How about I get you both a drink and we all get along?

- GrantA

You’re right, Grant. It was a compliment. I guess the guy’s insecurity got the better of him. I’m very anal about wrapping grain around boxes and the like and that’s probably why I focused right in on the fact that those frames do have excellent grain and color matching. I also find that visually, people will see the grain first and focus less on the fit — up to a point that is. BTW, I was not suggesting that those miter joints were ill-fitting. They’re not, I was just expressing my opinion about what looks good.

BTW, I get a little tired of the “you two make up” crap. He had a complete emotional breakdown. I was not part of that, so leave me out of any therapy you recommend.

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

10731 posts in 1615 days


#28 posted 11-21-2018 03:24 PM



Thank you for the suggestion on the shooting board/plane.

I guess I m looking at the shooting board option as something that would be very difficult to ensure exact lengths of opposing sides, which would negate any accuracy of the miter itself. I m also wondering if that might be the case with the trimmer as well?

It also seems that s adding a lot of handwork to doing 50 or more frames, which is precisely what I m looking to reduce. Might be a case of me reducing the time I spend sanding/filling inaccurate miters but replacing that time with having to run each through a plane/shooting board.

....

- Poplarguy

You’re right, adding a shooting board or miter trimmer to your process will also add to your build times. If I’m building a frame I would definitely use a shooting board to trim the miters. But, if I was building 25 frames to sell… probably not. And in any case, you would need a jig of some sort with a stop in order to ensure proper lengths when using the trimmer or shooting board. As you said, sides of different lengths will negate even the most perfect miters.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View pottz's profile

pottz

5934 posts in 1461 days


#29 posted 11-21-2018 03:49 PM


I don t have a dog in this fight but msinc I really think Rich was complimenting your work, saying you did an excellent job on grain and color matching.
How about I get you both a drink and we all get along?

- GrantA

You re right, Grant. It was a compliment. I guess the guy s insecurity got the better of him. I m very anal about wrapping grain around boxes and the like and that s probably why I focused right in on the fact that those frames do have excellent grain and color matching. I also find that visually, people will see the grain first and focus less on the fit — up to a point that is. BTW, I was not suggesting that those miter joints were ill-fitting. They re not, I was just expressing my opinion about what looks good.

BTW, I get a little tired of the “you two make up” crap. He had a complete emotional breakdown. I was not part of that, so leave me out of any therapy you recommend.

- Rich


i agree rich i took what you said as a nice compliment why he thought otherwise who knows.its no wonder the amount of people that actually participate keeps going down.

-- sawdust the bigger the pile the bigger my smile-larry,so cal.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2413 posts in 3421 days


#30 posted 11-21-2018 04:19 PM

As kind of a side note, before I bought my compounds, a Bosch (shop saw) and Dewalt (site saw), I had a Delta. It gave dead on cuts, but it WAS NOT a compound saw.

Talking to a friend, who owned a framing shop, I noted a compound saw on one of her benches. Discussing it, she claimed it was impossible to get quality repeat cuts with on. I claimed I could. When I showed her a frame, she seemed more annoyed than impressed, but my joints were every bit as tight as any of hers.

The Delta had a relatively simple adjustment method. If I got a bad joint, I new it was time to readjust (about every six months and an hour down).

I did use stop blocks to insure matches to each side.

In the end, the quality and ease of cut IS dependent on the saw and it remains that, sometimes, old technology is better.

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4592 posts in 4219 days


#31 posted 11-21-2018 05:33 PM

I like tablesaw sleds, and sometimes touchup any gaps at the disc sander.

But if I were doing picture frames regularly- you can build the same kind of jig for your mitersaw…so long as you are cutting Left and right sides, they “HAVE TO” meet at 90 when put together. the link for the video is below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQK4LbmEYh4

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View Rich's profile

Rich

4799 posts in 1066 days


#32 posted 11-21-2018 05:45 PM


I like tablesaw sleds, and sometimes touchup any gaps at the disc sander.

- DrDirt

Big +1. I prefer sleds and fixtures to saw adjustments. It’s quicker since you don’t take the time to set up for the cut and reset afterwards, and far more repeatable.

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

View Stan Shields's profile

Stan Shields

16 posts in 369 days


#33 posted 11-21-2018 05:56 PM

Look at Kings woodworking on YouTube, he has a really clever way to make a miter jig for a crosscut sled. If you have a sled already the incremental cost is $0.

-- Built guitars in my basement for many years, mistakes went into the wood stove, was rarely cold.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2786 days


#34 posted 11-21-2018 06:10 PM

Video of CTD double miter saw

https://youtu.be/GOBOGKwJtNs

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View pottz's profile

pottz

5934 posts in 1461 days


#35 posted 11-21-2018 06:16 PM

cool tool but probably a little too much for the home shop.

-- sawdust the bigger the pile the bigger my smile-larry,so cal.

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1376 days


#36 posted 11-21-2018 06:21 PM

I get great results with my miter saw (15” hitachi )...... (chop saw for AG) :)
It has some lock down clamps that hold the piece solid while making the cut. I think that makes a big difference on the quality of the cut, along with a good blade.

Back in the late 70’s we used a double miter saw. It kicked out a piece from the middle. They filled up 55 gallon drums with the cut off pieces. I used to take them home and make table tops from them.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2786 days


#37 posted 11-21-2018 06:26 PM

Just remember Jay chop saw is for metal.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1376 days


#38 posted 11-21-2018 06:30 PM


Just remember Jay chop saw is for metal.

- AlaskaGuy


Have you ever heard anybody say they mitered their fingers off? lol
.
.
.
.
.
.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2786 days


#39 posted 11-21-2018 06:41 PM


Just remember Jay chop saw is for metal.

- AlaskaGuy

Have you ever heard anybody say they mitered their fingers off? lol
.
.
.
.
.
.

- jbay

Nope, I usually here I cut my finger off on a chop saw.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View SweetTea's profile (online now)

SweetTea

450 posts in 1136 days


#40 posted 11-28-2018 04:57 PM

The double miter saw someone posted above is a great way to do any kind of production mitered frames. Especially if he can get it at under a grand. Those things can be dialed in dead accurate. You can set up a stand (sort of like a traditional miter saw stand) with extension wings on both sides and a track or rail with a stop block. Man if I were the OP I would hop on that double miter saw like white on rice! It may be overkill for the average weekend warrior but I am always in favor of using industrial grade machines whenever you can afford to do so, regardless of whether you are a weekend warrior or not.

View Poplarguy's profile

Poplarguy

30 posts in 367 days


#41 posted 11-28-2018 05:11 PM

To follow up on this, I wound up picking up the saw up, much to the chagrin of my wife because it does take up a lot of floor space.

I almost hate to tell you this but I paid $100 for it. That’s not a typo. Seller was just happy to move it out, so it was a good deal for both of us.

It came with 4 carbide blades and was in good working condition but it needed a bit of TLC from sitting, which I’m going through now.

I’m pulling the bearings out and replacing them along with installing new belts and having the blades sharpened as well. The deck had some surface rust on it from sitting but I’ve cleaned that up and it shows pretty good now. There’s really not much to the machine other than that. The machine is solid as a rock, twin 1hp baldor motors and 10” blades. No bells and whistles, this is a complete manual machine. There is some limitation with this saw as to the height/width of frame stock, similar to what a “normal” 10” miter saw would have, but I don’t think that will be a downside for me.

I’m hoping this is my end-all solution to my issue and will yield 100% accurate cuts (providing, of course, I feed it good quality frame stock).

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