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View Sylvain's profile

Refining the measuring standards

by Sylvain
posted 11-17-2018 04:23 PM


27 replies so far

View Bill White's profile (online now)

Bill White

5225 posts in 4439 days


#1 posted 11-17-2018 06:37 PM

So now we have to throw away all of our stuff?
I can’t EVEN comprehend.

-- [email protected]

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#2 posted 11-17-2018 08:33 PM

I much prefer the KISS system

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Ripper70's profile

Ripper70

1314 posts in 1388 days


#3 posted 11-17-2018 08:43 PM

So, does that mean I just got taller or shorter?

-- "You know, I'm such a great driver, it's incomprehensible that they took my license away." --Vince Ricardo

View Bill White's profile (online now)

Bill White

5225 posts in 4439 days


#4 posted 11-17-2018 10:09 PM

No Ripper. You just weigh differently. Wonder when the Imperial system will fade away?

-- [email protected]

View Richard's profile

Richard

11296 posts in 3512 days


#5 posted 11-18-2018 02:01 AM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Me also AG! You’re such a “Sweet Guy”! ... lol ….

Rick S.

P.S. That was One BORING 30 Minute Video! .... Glad I only watched 5 Minutes of it! ...LOL…

-- Richard (Ontario, CANADA)

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#6 posted 11-18-2018 04:12 AM

I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Me also AG! You re such a “Sweet Guy”! ... lol ….

Rick S.

P.S. That was One BORING 30 Minute Video! .... Glad I only watched 5 Minutes of it! ...LOL…

- Rick S…


Your attention span is twice what mine is. :)

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#7 posted 11-18-2018 06:19 PM

No panic,
nothing will change in most people day to day life.

The legal kilogramme will not anymore be determined by an artefact ( a lump of Pt-Ir alloy) but by universal constants which are valid anywhere in the universe.
In case you want to colonize the planet Mars and you don’t bring your weight and measures with you…

The comparison of the masses used as mass standards in various Countries was showing drifting of the individual values, this problem is solved with the new international standard.

For those who like the US customary units, one pound first defined by the Mendenhall Order of 1893 as:
1 lb = 0.4535924277 kg
changed in 1959 to
1 lb = 0. 45359237 kg (by agreement between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and the United States )
should remain unchanged.

Boring video? Once passed the formal presentation of the speaker (1’50”), you can hear the audience laughing a dozen times…

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

View Dark_Lightning's profile

Dark_Lightning

3512 posts in 3588 days


#8 posted 11-18-2018 06:32 PM

The original kilogram mass standards have changed weight due to the radioactive decay of some of the atoms over time; thus a new standard had to be defined.

https://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-kilo-weight.html

Doesn’t mean much in our shops or at the store, but interesting, nonetheless.

-- Steven.......Random Orbital Nailer

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#9 posted 11-18-2018 06:39 PM

Thank you for the comment and link Dark_lightning.

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1378 days


#10 posted 11-18-2018 06:39 PM



The original kilogram mass standards have changed weight due to the radioactive decay of some of the atoms over time; thus a new standard had to be defined.

https://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-kilo-weight.html

Doesn t mean much in our shops or at the store, but interesting, nonetheless.

- Dark_Lightning

They probably didn’t account for the change in the gravitational pull at the time they weighed.
Or maybe the curvature of the earth. Wonder what the air pressure in the room was?
Humidity might have made a difference.
Atoms, radiation breakdown…....
It’s all over my head.
I’ll just stick with my tape measure and calculator, and go along with whatever they say.

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#11 posted 11-18-2018 10:32 PM

Jbay,
For the comparison method, look here

select the tab “verifications”

about the drift, look under the tab “FAQs”
“But why are the International Prototype and its copies diverging in mass? There must be some explanation.”

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1378 days


#12 posted 11-18-2018 10:58 PM

”Planck constant and the Avogadro constant.”

Good Deal, I was worried about that. :)

View Richard Lee's profile

Richard Lee

251 posts in 1254 days


#13 posted 11-18-2018 11:10 PM

You mean Ive been short changed on my “Legal Weed” ?

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#14 posted 11-19-2018 12:46 AM



You mean Ive been short changed on my “Legal Weed” ?

- Richard Lee

Probably on all the weed you have bought :)

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#15 posted 11-19-2018 05:54 PM

Speaking of small quantities, the commercially tolerated mass deficit in EU on a 5g package is 9%.

That is to say a deficit of 0.000450 kg which is only about 10 times the mass drift between the 1kg standard masses used to calibrate secondary standard which I guess might themselves serve to calibrate standard used “in the field”. (there might be more steps). Of course with each further step down the calibration chain there will be an error. That is why one wants to star with the best possible primary standard.

I don’t know the accepted tolerance for pharmacy products.

To compare apples with apples, the tolerated deficit on a 1kg package is 0.015 kg (1.5%) ( 300 X the drift )

Now apparently ridiculously small numbers ( 0.000050kg on 1 kg) adds up when you sell and buy millions of tons.
And we know some politicians who like to tax importations…

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2606 posts in 2324 days


#16 posted 11-20-2018 12:26 PM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Me also AG! You re such a “Sweet Guy”! ... lol ….

Rick S.

P.S. That was One BORING 30 Minute Video! .... Glad I only watched 5 Minutes of it! ...LOL…

- Rick S…


I thought that was a great presentation. I’m a trainer and to me he hit a home run.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#17 posted 11-20-2018 02:15 PM

Thank you for your comment RobS888.

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

View lumbering_on's profile

lumbering_on

578 posts in 969 days


#18 posted 11-20-2018 02:59 PM



Speaking of small quantities, the commercially tolerated mass deficit in EU on a 5g package is 9%.

That is to say a deficit of 0.000450 kg which is only about 10 times the mass drift between the 1kg standard masses used to calibrate secondary standard which I guess might themselves serve to calibrate standard used “in the field”. (there might be more steps). Of course with each further step down the calibration chain there will be an error. That is why one wants to star with the best possible primary standard.

I don t know the accepted tolerance for pharmacy products.

To compare apples with apples, the tolerated deficit on a 1kg package is 0.015 kg (1.5%) ( 300 X the drift )

Now apparently ridiculously small numbers ( 0.000050kg on 1 kg) adds up when you sell and buy millions of tons.
And we know some politicians who like to tax importations…

- Sylvain

You’re hitting the nail on the head. Little numbers do add up, and in ways you don’t think about.

The error on the new kg (h) is ~2×10-8 kg, which may sound small, but is actually the RDA for two adults of vitamin D. Since errors can compound, if you’re dealing with an ‘accurate’ scale that’s calibrate three or four steps from the official kg, this could end up being a dozen or so doses of vitamins. Now, vitamins are cheap, but imagine that this is a drug that costs a few hundred dollars per dose, and you can be talking a lot of money.

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2606 posts in 2324 days


#19 posted 11-20-2018 04:02 PM



I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy


Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn’t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View knockknock's profile

knockknock

473 posts in 2652 days


#20 posted 11-20-2018 05:41 PM

...The new standards were adopted unanimously by the Member States.
In this 2d video , at 9 16” the vote of the US representative.

- Sylvain


The voting was rigged. A delegate had to remain silent to vote NO. When was the last time you saw a politician keep quiet.

-- 👀 --

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#21 posted 11-21-2018 04:16 AM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888


Look at it this way. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn’t want to learn new tricks.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2606 posts in 2324 days


#22 posted 11-21-2018 11:47 AM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888

Look at it this way. You can t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn t want to learn new tricks.

- AlaskaGuy


Exactly! Although that belies the keeping it simple part. Say you are too old to learn, but don’t say it is simpler to use, when that is demonstrably false.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#23 posted 11-21-2018 06:39 PM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888

Look at it this way. You can t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn t want to learn new tricks.

- AlaskaGuy

Exactly! Although that belies the keeping it simple part. Say you are too old to learn, but don’t say it is simpler to use, when that is demonstrably false.

- RobS888


Lets put it this way. I’m happy in my ignorance so leave me alone.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2606 posts in 2324 days


#24 posted 11-21-2018 08:22 PM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888

Look at it this way. You can t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn t want to learn new tricks.

- AlaskaGuy

Exactly! Although that belies the keeping it simple part. Say you are too old to learn, but don’t say it is simpler to use, when that is demonstrably false.

- RobS888

Lets put it this way. I m happy in my ignorance so leave me alone.

- AlaskaGuy


Perhaps you shouldn’t have joined the conversation then, you brought your ignorance out and paraded it around. Almost belligerently one might say.

Nothing personal, just sad that some people claim an old outdated system, that even its inventors dropped, is in someway good or better or easier.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5338 posts in 2788 days


#25 posted 11-21-2018 10:40 PM

I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888

Look at it this way. You can t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn t want to learn new tricks.

- AlaskaGuy

Exactly! Although that belies the keeping it simple part. Say you are too old to learn, but don’t say it is simpler to use, when that is demonstrably false.

- RobS888

Lets put it this way. I m happy in my ignorance so leave me alone.

- AlaskaGuy

Perhaps you shouldn’t have joined the conversation then, you brought your ignorance out and paraded it around. Almost belligerently one might say.

Nothing personal, just sad that some people claim an old outdated system, that even its inventors dropped, is in someway good or better or easier.

- RobS888

Just like you have always been. You’re trying to stir up trouble. Won’t work anymore. :)

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View RobS888's profile

RobS888

2606 posts in 2324 days


#26 posted 11-22-2018 07:28 AM


I much prefer the KISS system

- AlaskaGuy

Metric is far simpler than Imperial or US standard. Look at it this way, Spanish is much simpler than a Germanic language like English, but that doesn t make it easier to switch to as an adult.

- RobS888

Look at it this way. You can t teach an old dog new tricks when the old dog doesn t want to learn new tricks.

- AlaskaGuy

Exactly! Although that belies the keeping it simple part. Say you are too old to learn, but don’t say it is simpler to use, when that is demonstrably false.

- RobS888

Lets put it this way. I m happy in my ignorance so leave me alone.

- AlaskaGuy

Perhaps you shouldn’t have joined the conversation then, you brought your ignorance out and paraded it around. Almost belligerently one might say.

Nothing personal, just sad that some people claim an old outdated system, that even its inventors dropped, is in someway good or better or easier.

- RobS888

Just like you have always been. You re trying to stir up trouble. Won t work anymore. :)

- AlaskaGuy


Sure, have a nice holiday.

-- I always knew gun nuts where afraid of something, just never thought popcorn was on the list.

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

870 posts in 2978 days


#27 posted 11-23-2018 03:36 PM

Knockknock

I must admit it was a peculiar voting procedure.
But the matter had been discussed between the representatives of the various National Measurement Institute of the various Countries around the world and a consensus had been achieved. This voting ceremony was essentially formal.

Furthermore as I understand the US representative is the Director of the NIST. I like to think he is not a solely a politician.
Education: B.S./B.A. degrees in chemistry and music from Case Western Reserve University, 1975
Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Case Western Reserve University, 1982.

I don’t see any reason why the Nist Director would not have approved the new definitions of the international standards knowing that many ideas and technologies needed for the definitions of the International System of Units comes from or were refined by the NIST itself.

Although it seems the BIPM in Sèvres (France) benefit from some form of extraterritoriality. Only France would loose a little bit of prestige as no Country in the universe needs anymore to go to the BIPM to calibrate its kg “prototype”.

And as you probably know, the US customary unit system doesn’t exist by itself but is defined by reference to the International System of Units. Now USA doesn’t “need” anymore to have its “prototype” kg calibrated at the BIPM.

Congratulations.

This will not prevent international comparison to ensure every Country arrives effectively to the same standards. it is needed for commerce and science (and taxes).

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn

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