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Looking at LN dovetails saws

by AlaskaGuy
posted 10-02-2018 11:34 PM


36 replies so far

View lumbering_on's profile

lumbering_on

578 posts in 853 days


#1 posted 10-02-2018 11:36 PM

Other than the fact they get to sell you two saws?

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furniturebob

1 post in 234 days


#2 posted 10-02-2018 11:37 PM

i will tell you, once you have used a Japanese pull saw, you will never go back. Way better than any of the western saws.

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#3 posted 10-02-2018 11:48 PM



i will tell you, once you have used a Japanese pull saw, you will never go back. Way better than any of the western saws.

- furniturebob


I have 3 Japanese pulls saws not but they are all of the crosscut variety. I know they make one with a rip teeth for dovetailing but I can seem to find it online at the moment.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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Aj2

2205 posts in 2161 days


#4 posted 10-03-2018 12:47 AM

Both good saw that are resharpenable unlike a jap saw that gets thrown away when it gets dull. The tapered plate helps minimize over sawing on the side you can’t see. I do over saw when the wood is soft. When it really matters I’m more careful.

-- Aj

View mahdee's profile

mahdee

4286 posts in 2130 days


#5 posted 10-03-2018 01:02 AM

I just refuse to pay that much money to cut a dovetail when you can use band saw jigs, table saw jigs, cross cuts, bow saws, etc, etc to achieve the same result. I use a HD cross cut saw to make my dovetails; yes, it is not as smooth and yes it can eat your thumbnail out and yes, it is too long, and yes…..... However, the same amount of practice on that saw will give you the same result as a $200 “dovetail saw”. You still have to clean it out with chisels and make if fit tight. So, what is the difference between having to remove 1/32” of wood for a tight fit dovetail vs. 1/8” Other than a decently sharp chisel??
I think I just burst my own bubble because I’ve been wanting to burn some money on those nice looking “dovetail” saws.
Sorry.

-- earthartandfoods.com

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#6 posted 10-03-2018 01:11 AM



Both good saw that are resharpenable unlike a jap saw that gets thrown away when it gets dull. The tapered plate helps minimize over sawing on the side you can’t see. I do over saw when the wood is soft. When it really matters I’m more careful.

- Aj2


Thanks, I actually leaning toward getting the LN and a Japanese with the rip cut.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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waho6o9

8638 posts in 2940 days


#7 posted 10-03-2018 01:14 AM

https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho-japanese-saws-deluxe-set.html

I like this set from Work Sharp Heaven ^ and I’m sure the Lie Nielsen are worth the money as well.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#8 posted 10-03-2018 01:18 AM



I just refuse to pay that much money to cut a dovetail when you can use band saw jigs, table saw jigs, cross cuts, bow saws, etc, etc to achieve the same result. I use a HD cross cut saw to make my dovetails; yes, it is not as smooth and yes it can eat your thumbnail out and yes, it is too long, and yes…..... However, the same amount of practice on that saw will give you the same result as a $200 “dovetail saw”. You still have to clean it out with chisels and make if fit tight. So, what is the difference between having to remove 1/32” of wood for a tight fit dovetail vs. 1/8” Other than a decently sharp chisel??
I think I just burst my own bubble because I ve been wanting to burn some money on those nice looking “dovetail” saws.
Sorry.

- mahdee


Thanks for you thought. I’m 74 years old and I don’t plan to “take it with me”. My financial advisor says I need to spend some money. Plus you know they pay us to live in Alaska. Oct the 9th is permanent fund day and I’ll be receiving 3,200 dollars as my share of the Alaskan oil profits.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#9 posted 10-03-2018 01:22 AM


https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho-japanese-saws-deluxe-set.html

I like this set from Work Sharp Heaven ^ and I m sure the Lie Nielsen are worth the money as well.

- waho6o9


Thanks, I be checking that out too. Do any of those have rip teeth suitable for dovetail cutting?

Where is that company located at?

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2257 days


#10 posted 10-03-2018 01:39 AM

AG – since you asked about a Japanese saw for dovetails, after many recommendations for the Gyokucho 372, I bought one and it’s all I use now for those.

I used to saw with the non-tapered L-N dovetail saw and still have it. After trying the Japanese saw, I found it suited me better as far as the mechanical action of sawing goes. I have one more Japanese saw for crosscuts, otherwise I have no other Japanese tools.

This is why I prefer the 372 for dovetails:

1.) More narrow kerf
2.) Greater TPI. I believe it’s 19 vs. 15 for the L-N.
3.) Cutting on the pull stroke helps me, initially, to follow a straight line right on the line. It’s a subtle difference and maybe it’s psychological, I don’t know. All I know is that I can do it better. Actually, this becomes more of an issue with crosscutting wider boards vs. dovetails. I mean following a line on the top, not one going down the side.

Yes, you will have to replace blades instead of resharpening them. But you will have to go through 5 blades to finally top the cost of the L-N saw (which is close to $140 when you throw in shipping), which will definitely last more than one user’s lifetime. But your own lifetime? I don’t know how old you are now, but if you started as a teenager and cut dovetails regularly for 75 years with a Japanese saw – yeah, you would be spending more than the L-N saw. And you won’t have a family heirloom when you’re dead. I’m not gonna run into that problem because I don’t cut dovetails every day or every week or even every month and I don’t have kids. After three years I’m still on my first blade, I don’t see any signs of it being dull.

Anyway, I’ve never heard anyone say the L-N saw was bad. I’m not saying that, either. All I’m saying is that I found one that was better for me. A Japanese saw might not be the best thing for you.

Are you around any L-N event when they tour the country? They bring everything and you can try everything, I highly recommend going to one if you’re gonna spend that kind of money on their tools and can’t get to Maine. I’ve found out after trying stuff that I liked certain tools I never thought I’d like and disliked others I thought I would like. Either way, I’ve ended up poorer after it was over. I love L-N.

Ooops – just remembered you’re in Alaska. Idiot <—- me. I doubt any L-N event comes closer to you than Seattle.

Good luck!

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#11 posted 10-03-2018 01:51 AM



AG – since you asked about a Japanese saw for dovetails, after many recommendations for the Gyokucho 372, I bought one and it s all I use now for those.

I used to saw with the non-tapered L-N dovetail saw and still have it. After trying the Japanese saw, I found it suited me better as far as the mechanical action of sawing goes. I have one more Japanese saw for crosscuts, otherwise I have no other Japanese tools.

This is why I prefer the 372 for dovetails:

1.) More narrow kerf
2.) Greater TPI. I believe it s 19 vs. 15 for the L-N.
3.) Cutting on the pull stroke helps me, initially, to follow a straight line right on the line. It s a subtle difference and maybe it s psychological, I don t know. All I know is that I can do it better. Actually, this becomes more of an issue with crosscutting wider boards vs. dovetails. I mean following a line on the top, not one going down the side.

Yes, you will have to replace blades instead of resharpening them. But you will have to go through 5 blades to finally top the cost of the L-N saw (which is close to $140 when you throw in shipping), which will definitely last more than one user s lifetime. But your own lifetime? I don t know how old you are now, but if you started as a teenager and cut dovetails regularly for 75 years – yeah, you would be spending more than the L-N saw. And you won t have a family heirloom when you re dead. I m not gonna run into that problem because I don t cut dovetails every day or every week or even every month and I don t have kids. After three years I m still on my first blade, I don t see any signs of it being dull.

Anyway, I ve never heard anyone say the L-N saw was bad. I m not saying that, either. All I m saying is that I found one that was better for me.

Are you around any L-N event when they tour the country? They bring everything and you can try everything, I highly recommend going to one if you re gonna spend that kind of money on their tools and can t get to Maine. I ve found out after trying stuff that I liked certain tools I never thought I d like and disliked others I thought I would like.

Good luck!

- ColonelTravis


Thanks, I knew someone would jog my memory on which Japanese saw I wanted. I remember that saw recommend a few times before but couldn’t remember which one it was. So, I’m going to go with the 372 and see how it goes before ordering a saw from LN>

BTW I haven’t done a lot of hand cut dovetail but the need are finally arrived that if I am to ever finish my current project I really need to learn to do hand cut 1/2 blind dovetails

Thank you sir!

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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TheFridge

10858 posts in 1849 days


#12 posted 10-03-2018 02:05 AM

I have the LN but have since made my own with an alder handle :)

The tapered has a thinner plate .015 I believe. Smaller kerf. Nice saw.

I know many are fans of pull saws. I’m not one.

The LN is for 1/2”+ stock. The homemade one is for thin stock.

Hell. I’d make you one for half the cost of a LN.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#13 posted 10-03-2018 02:11 AM



I have the LN but have since made my own with an alder handle :)

The tapered has a thinner plate .015 I believe. Smaller kerf. Nice saw.

I know many are fans of pull saws. I’m not one.

The LN is for 1/2”+ stock. The homemade one is for thin stock.

- TheFridge


Well hell I may have to get both of them. But I’ll the 372 first and see. Aren’t saw like routers and clamps?

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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TheFridge

10858 posts in 1849 days


#14 posted 10-03-2018 02:19 AM

I would say no. Then I realize I have a half dozen saws I’ve never even used :|

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#15 posted 10-03-2018 02:24 AM



I would say no. Then I realize I have a half dozen saws I’ve never even used :|

- TheFridge


You know what they say. Being prepared when the need arises is best.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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waho6o9

8638 posts in 2940 days


#16 posted 10-03-2018 02:50 AM

Do any of those have rip teeth suitable for dovetail cutting?

Yes:
“For dovetailing we have included the popular 372 Dozuki, a full spine professional dovetail saw with a plate thickness of just under 1/3 of a mm and beautifully fine razor sharp teeth.”

Where is that company located at?

Workshop Heaven is an independent family-run business based in North Oxfordshire.

View SMP's profile

SMP

867 posts in 268 days


#17 posted 10-03-2018 04:34 PM

I second the 372 by Gyokucho. https://www.amazon.com/Gyokucho-372-Razor-Dotsuki-Takebiki/dp/B006JW19U8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538584127&sr=8-1&keywords=372+saw

I have a few of the Gyokucho Razorsaws and they seem to hold up better than Z-saws.

From the LN, I would choose the tapered due to the oversawing as someone else mentioned. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/01/20/the-advantages-of-saws-with-tapered-or-canted-blades/
Good looking saw.

I also like the Gramercy one here, but would never spend that much https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/GT-DSAW9.XX

Same to the one I think is the sexiest of all, the hand tuned Dozuki here: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-JS420

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HokieKen

9251 posts in 1501 days


#18 posted 10-03-2018 05:16 PM



...

Same to the one I think is the sexiest of all, the hand tuned Dozuki here: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-JS420

- SMP

Holy hell! I’m assuming that Japanese saw is “disposable” like others? $330 for a saw that’s trashed when it gets dull seems a little absurd. I’m buying one. ;-)

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

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diverlloyd

3469 posts in 2220 days


#19 posted 10-03-2018 07:14 PM

They are sharpenable just like any other saw. They are also harder then most other saw so you need a feather file to resharpen them. The nice ones you can send back to the maker and they will sharpen them for you.

...

Same to the one I think is the sexiest of all, the hand tuned Dozuki here: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-JS420

- SMP

Holy hell! I m assuming that Japanese saw is “disposable” like others? $330 for a saw that s trashed when it gets dull seems a little absurd. I m buying one. ;-)

- HokieKen


View Andre's profile

Andre

2575 posts in 2169 days


#20 posted 10-03-2018 07:28 PM

I also like the Gramercy one here, but would never spend that much https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/GT-DSAW9.XX

I bought this saw a few years back(much lower cost 1/2) at a time when LN was my first choice
and I was trying out Western style as compared to Japanese pull style. Already had bought a
Veritas which cut nice but didn’t quite feel right?
The Gramercy is like a finely tuned instrument compared to the Veritas!
Lee Valley also carries a lot of good Japanese saws at very affordable prices.
I still like the fine Dozuki for thinner D.T.s (less than 1/2”).

-- Lifting one end of the plank.

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Marlow

182 posts in 3034 days


#21 posted 10-03-2018 10:06 PM

The LN tapered saw is a .015 thin plate saw. The regular saw is a .020 standard plate saw. The thin plate cuts like a hot knife through butter. However, if you are new to sawing with backsaws and cutting dovetails, I’d suggest the regular plate saw, as it is less likely to cause “steering problems”. Both great saws.

View newwoodbutcher's profile

newwoodbutcher

794 posts in 3213 days


#22 posted 10-03-2018 10:11 PM

I used Japanese pull saws for about Ten years. I have several. Three years ago I got a good deal on two LN saws, one rip and one cross cut. I know this is a decisive discussion but I love my LN saws. They are the ones I reach for most of the time. Smooth fast cut, easy to track a knife line, iLl never go back.

-- Ken

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jdh122

1072 posts in 3180 days


#23 posted 10-03-2018 10:55 PM

LN claims that the tapering gives you more control. You can check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te3VuCoTLvE

-- Jeremy, in the Acadian forests

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#24 posted 10-03-2018 11:00 PM

OK my decision, Last night I ordered the Gyokucho 372 from Amazon and today I completed my order for the LN standard dovetail. I’ll let you all know what I like in a few weeks. Thanks for all the suggest and your experiences.

What I found interesting is the little popup I got from LN
.
.
.
.
.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

631 posts in 1111 days


#25 posted 10-04-2018 12:42 AM

I have come to prefer cutting dovetails on the pull stroke.

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Andybb

1900 posts in 966 days


#26 posted 10-04-2018 01:08 AM


Both good saw that are resharpenable unlike a jap saw that gets thrown away when it gets dull. The tapered plate helps minimize over sawing on the side you can’t see. I do over saw when the wood is soft. When it really matters I’m more careful.

- Aj2

1. The blades on those saws are replaceable at a very reasonable cost. ($14.99)
2. I know I will get roasted for saying this but I will anyway. With all due respect, “jap” is offensive to some people.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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Aj2

2205 posts in 2161 days


#27 posted 10-04-2018 01:35 AM

I know Andy I was in a bad mood when I posted that.
I really didn’t mean to offend anyone or I would have just said Sandle wearing gold fish tender. ::))

-- Aj

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Andybb

1900 posts in 966 days


#28 posted 10-04-2018 01:38 AM

:-)

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#29 posted 10-04-2018 01:56 AM

2. I know I will get roasted for saying this but I will anyway. With all due respect, “jap” is offensive to some people.

- Andybb


Well you won’t get roasted from me. It is a derogatory term.

“Jap is an English abbreviation of the word “Japanese”. Today it is generally regarded as an ethnic slur among Japanese minority populations in other countries, ...”

That being said, I think many times people use that term more to being lazy than to offend. I don’t think he meant to offend anyone

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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Andybb

1900 posts in 966 days


#30 posted 10-04-2018 02:19 AM

2. I know I will get roasted for saying this but I will anyway. With all due respect, “jap” is offensive to some people.

- Andybb

Well you won t get roasted from me. It is a derogatory term.

“Jap is an English abbreviation of the word “Japanese”. Today it is generally regarded as an ethnic slur among Japanese minority populations in other countries, ...”

That being said, I think many times people use that term more to being lazy than to offend. I don t think he meant to offend anyone

- AlaskaGuy

I assumed that. That’s why I added the smiley face. It’s all good. Kumbaya and all that. :-)

That being said, the concept behind the pull saw is that the metal is under tension when it cuts, theoretically providing a better cut. But western saws don’t flex like the Japanese pulls saws do so to each his own. I try to use the pull saw but use both depending on which one I can find when I need it.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2257 days


#31 posted 10-04-2018 02:35 AM

Trying both is the best way to figure it out. Heck, you might even prefer keeping both for different jobs, who knows. I haven’t used my L-N saw in more than a year but I haven’t sold it.

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chriscarter

11 posts in 454 days


#32 posted 10-05-2018 02:11 PM



They have two models. The (for lack of a better description) a regular western type and Tapered Dovetail Saw (western style).

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4145/dovetail-saws

What is the superposed advantage to the tapered saw.

- AlaskaGuy

The purpose of tapered dovetail saws is so that you don’t accidentally blow past your line on the back side when you hit your line on the front side. The advantage of a non-tapered dovetail saw is that provided you saw level you hit the back line at the same time you hit the front line which saves time. Realistically, it doesn’t matter as you adjust to either saw. I would focus on other aspects of the saws first. For example, the tapered one is thinner. This can be a pro or a con. I personally don’t see any advantage to thinner saws for dovetailing, but some people prefer them. If you cope out your waste though, a very thin saw can make it more difficult requiring two cuts with a coping saw rather than one (or using a fret saw, which have their pros and cons too).

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Tedstor

1678 posts in 2996 days


#33 posted 10-05-2018 02:19 PM

Its been a couple years since I cut my last dovetails…...but I used a $12 hacksaw. Worked great.

View lumbering_on's profile

lumbering_on

578 posts in 853 days


#34 posted 10-05-2018 03:25 PM


...

Same to the one I think is the sexiest of all, the hand tuned Dozuki here: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-JS420

- SMP

Holy hell! I m assuming that Japanese saw is “disposable” like others? $330 for a saw that s trashed when it gets dull seems a little absurd. I m buying one. ;-)

- HokieKen

It says it’s an inch longer, so that has to be worth something.

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waho6o9

8638 posts in 2940 days


#35 posted 10-05-2018 03:45 PM

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AlaskaGuy

5240 posts in 2672 days


#36 posted 10-05-2018 04:49 PM



Its been a couple years since I cut my last dovetails…...but I used a $12 hacksaw. Worked great.

- Tedstor


Thanks for you input. If you look above you’ll see Ive already placed my orders.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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