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Emmett’s Good Stuff Question

by WoodMag
posted 10-01-2018 02:16 AM


41 replies so far

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

589 posts in 2729 days


#1 posted 10-01-2018 02:43 AM

You can go a thousand different ways with this.

The product is 55% mineral spirits, so it should go on smoothly – apply with a rag; coat the entire surface – if you have enough time before the product starts to tack; then when finished, go over it again to remove any excess. Don’t give any product time to set before you remove excess.

As this is a Pine table (from the #tag), the surface will drink any initial coat. My recommendation is to apply a sealer (my preferred in Zinnser(sp) Seal Coat, two coats); then apply several top-coats. Emmett’s is an oil-based urethane, so the drying time will be longer than a water-borne finish. Regarding a water-borne finish: since the seal coat closes-off the wood fibers, the water-borne finished will not raise the grain. I recommend either one of the General Finishes or Deft (Acrylic) water-borne finishes: they dry crystal clear, will not yellow with age, dry quickly (relative to Oil-based products), and will not give you a headache, from the fumes.

The Emmett’s product receives high praise, so use it per-instructions – but put a seal coat on first.

MJCD

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2191 posts in 2156 days


#2 posted 10-01-2018 03:30 AM

I would not use the good stuff for a table that big. I’ve used it for a small butcher block counter top and a few cutting boards. And it tracks up really fast. I bet you will hate it after one coat.
Look for something else.
Why is your table top being held in cauls it looks painful

-- Aj

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#3 posted 10-01-2018 03:40 AM


I would not use the good stuff for a table that big. I’ve used it for a small butcher block counter top and a few cutting boards. And it tracks up really fast. I bet you will hate it after one coat.
Look for something else.
Why is your table top being held in cauls it looks painful

- Aj2

Is this the sealer?

Zimmer @ Lowes

It’s held in place because it has a slight crowning problem 3/16” and I’m “overcompensating” the crown in the opposite direction for a few days so when I release it from the clamps it stays strait….in theory.

I agree Emmett’s gets VERY tacky quick and I was trying to figure out how to use it on such a large table.

If not Emmett’s, then what do you recommend? I’m not looking for a glossy finish but more of a satin/matte finish.

Still need a sealer prior?

I’m wanting to keep the natural look of the table as I’m staining the legs a dark walnut and want to keep the contrast.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#4 posted 10-01-2018 02:59 PM

I actual found the Zinsser Seal Coat

Nowhere local has it so have to order it online. I have 70 sq’ (10’ x 43” top and bottom) with two coats. Gallon covers 400-600 sq’ so a qt should cover 100-150.

I’m know 2 qt will do it, but will 1 qt be all I need?

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

589 posts in 2729 days


#5 posted 10-01-2018 09:10 PM

Well… respectfully, I disagree with Aj2: if you spend the time and money to build something, you should finish it properly. JMO…

Also, my guess is that the crowning will continue, once you’ve released the cauls. Pine is a difficult wood to create a professional result. Once you do release the cauls, place an aluminum level across the width, and use a hand plane to lower the high spots – take very thin shavings, and take your time. Spending time with a hand plane can do wonders for personal satisfaction… then use a sander to smooth any planning marks, and feather-in spots that need it.

Regarding the Seal Coat, I’ve always ordered it online: it is a well-regarded product. I would order either 2 pints or a quart, if available. A gallon is a very large amount, and may simply take up space; then, go to waste.

I have no experience with Emmett’s; though, I have colleaques who like it. I’m not sure how great it can be, or different it can be, relative to the General Finishes or Deft products. Personally, I stay away from Minmax (Home Depot, Lowes) products, but I may be in the minority here.

Regarding the finishing process, Pine is difficult to smooth to a crisp surface – it tends to fuzz-up (being a very soft wood). I would sand to 400, vaccum the surface well; then re-vaccum – To get as much of the sanding dust off the surface. Apply the Zinsser, and let the product sink-in (you’re purpose is to clog the pores – Zinsser is a varnish, chemically). Once dry (about 4 hours minimum), sand at 400, vaccum well; apply a second coat – let it dry 4 hours minimum; sand at 400 and vaccum. Then, successive coats of whatever you’re going to use. Water-borne finishes usually require more coats than oil-based (they ‘build’ more slowly); however, water-borne finishes have many advantages.

MJCD

View PCDub's profile

PCDub

136 posts in 602 days


#6 posted 10-01-2018 09:36 PM

If not Emmett’s, then what do you recommend? I’m not looking for a glossy finish but more of a satin/matte finish.
- WoodMag


You can go a thousand different ways with this….

As this is a Pine table (from the #tag), the surface will drink any initial coat. My recommendation is to apply a sealer (my preferred in Zinnser(sp) Seal Coat, two coats); then apply several top-coats. Emmett s is an oil-based urethane, so the drying time will be longer than a water-borne finish. Regarding a water-borne finish: since the seal coat closes-off the wood fibers, the water-borne finished will not raise the grain. I recommend either one of the General Finishes or Deft (Acrylic) water-borne finishes: they dry crystal clear, will not yellow with age, dry quickly (relative to Oil-based products), and will not give you a headache, from the fumes.

- MJCD

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

589 posts in 2729 days


#7 posted 10-01-2018 09:40 PM

PCDub – not sure this is a question???

View brtech's profile

brtech

1061 posts in 3280 days


#8 posted 10-01-2018 09:47 PM

What? A varnish? So, I looked: varnish is a drying oil, a resin and a solvent. Sealcoat is shellac based, and it has some ethanol and propanol (mineral spirits I assume) so a resin and a solvent.

What’s the drying oil in SealCoat?

It’s not supposed to be a finish coat, which is usually what you use a varnish for.

So why do you call it a varnish?

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2191 posts in 2156 days


#9 posted 10-01-2018 10:25 PM

I don’t see why you would need seal coat it’s a alcohol based shellac garbage whatever. Most use it for a wash coat to minimize splotches from staining unruly wood.
For a beginner nothing get more fool proof then Arm r seal .

If your slab has a unfortunate cup across its width it will need to be ripped down the middle and glued back together. Common thing woodworkers have to do

-- Aj

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8636 posts in 2935 days


#10 posted 10-01-2018 10:38 PM

Do all 6 six sides and you’ll be good to go.

I would use:
http://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcartstores.com/Pre-Color-Conditioner--Pre-Mixed--1-Quart--Ready-to-Use_p_47.html?redirect=1

And then wipe on Emmett’s Good stuff for a great finish.

Practice on scrap first.

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

589 posts in 2729 days


#11 posted 10-01-2018 11:19 PM

I guess I’m wrong about what’s in Seal Coat; however, I do know, from long experience, that it is a great first coat.

By the way, these are the thousands of directions you can go…

I’m not here to sell anything. WoodMag… good luck with whatever you do.

MJCD

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#12 posted 10-01-2018 11:55 PM

I appreciate everyone opinion and viewpoint on what is the “best” way to finish it.

For the crowning, I’m aware it will always be an issue and to help resolve it I’m going to add some 1-2” steel square beams that run across the bottom of the table to help with it crowning again. It might not work at all or it may help…or somewhere in between. If I do nothing it will crown again, that I’m sure of.

Based on the information that I have now and since the table is already sanded to 400 I’m going to use the Zinsser Seal Coat (I actually found some at my local Ag store – 1gal $40), wait overnight, sand it again, vacuum and coat it again. Wait overnight for it to dry, vacuum and use Emmett’s Good Stuff. Hope that’s right.

Right now the bottom is up so I will “experiment” with it and learn from what not to do when doing the top (after I flip it).

View CWWoodworking's profile

CWWoodworking

426 posts in 537 days


#13 posted 10-02-2018 03:28 AM

I personally would not use seal coat on anything new. I think it’s somewhat a useless product on new wood.

If you want something to wipe on, I like minwax wipe on poly just cause it’s easy and already mixed. Have had good luck with it. Haven’t used it in awhile though, spray everything now.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#14 posted 10-02-2018 03:55 AM

I agree with using CN Blotch control first since Pine has a terrible reputation for blotching. Arm-R-Seal is a great product very durable and the Oil brings out the grain beautifully. The two things I have problems with oil base products are the smell and longer open time that needs a more dust free atmosphere. If you have the equipment to spray it that’s the approach I would take. As far, an alternative finish think about spraying a pre-cat lacquer from Sherwin Williams.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#15 posted 10-02-2018 05:30 AM


I personally would not use seal coat on anything new. I think it’s somewhat a useless product on new wood.

If you want something to wipe on, I like minwax wipe on poly just cause it’s easy and already mixed. Have had good luck with it. Haven’t used it in awhile though, spray everything now.

- CWWoodworking

Why not a sealer? I’m aware everyone has a preference but is there a reason it’s worthless?


I agree with using CN Blotch control first since Pine has a terrible reputation for blotching. Arm-R-Seal is a great product very durable and the Oil brings out the grain beautifully. The two things I have problems with oil base products are the smell and longer open time that needs a more dust free atmosphere. If you have the equipment to spray it that s the approach I would take. As far, an alternative finish think about spraying a pre-cat lacquer from Sherwin Williams.

- a1Jim

Is the Arm-n-Seal used as a replacement for Zinsser Seal Coat or in addition to?

I honestly just love the different options everyone is bringing to the table… haha.

Perhaps I should go down the local wood shop and grab some longer pieces of wood and give it a few test runs on different options.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8636 posts in 2935 days


#16 posted 10-02-2018 12:26 PM

“Perhaps I should go down the local wood shop and grab some longer pieces of wood and give it a few test runs on different options.”

Wise ^. Maybe write the recipes on the back as you try different options.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2238 posts in 2347 days


#17 posted 10-02-2018 12:39 PM

Getting more wood to practice on is the best idea yet – always test anything you have not done before. Doesnt sound like you want to color the pine anymore than an oil finish provides. No need to buy CN blotch control, its easy to make – read here.. Never used Emmets, but tried a gel urethane varnish just like it years ago, and never tried it again – ok for small hand sized and below stuff, but not special. I would not use it on a large table, regular poly like arm r seal or minwax is easier (I use mw with great success, never understood why folks diss it). The sealcoat is not needed, but if you want to use it, you dont need a separate blotch control – put on a couple of coats and lightly sand.

Here is what I would do: use mw poly semi or satin, thin 1:1. Flood the surface, keep it wet for 10 min, wipe off, dry, repeat. Lightly sand with 320-400. For a thicker film, only thin ~ 10% and brush on, 2-3 coats. For thin film close to the wood, do wipe on coats and wet sand in between with 600.

Use your test pieces of wood. If it blotches too much start with blotch control and then follow the above.

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a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#18 posted 10-02-2018 01:22 PM

To answer your question Arm-R-Seal is used for most projects other than outdoor use.
It’s a great Idea to do some test pieces of wood before finishing your table just make sure you sand it to the same grit as your table. BTW sanding to 400 grit is not necessary, most projects are fine at 180 grit, the finer grit you use to sand the less penetration you get into your wood, but in this case your not that concerned about penetration,

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#19 posted 10-02-2018 01:23 PM



Getting more wood to practice on is the best idea yet – always test anything you have not done before. Doesnt sound like you want to color the pine anymore than an oil finish provides. No need to buy CN blotch control, its easy to make – read here.. Never used Emmets, but tried a gel urethane varnish just like it years ago, and never tried it again – ok for small hand sized and below stuff, but not special. I would not use it on a large table, regular poly like arm r seal or minwax is easier (I use mw with great success, never understood why folks diss it). The sealcoat is not needed, but if you want to use it, you dont need a separate blotch control – put on a couple of coats and lightly sand.

Here is what I would do: use mw poly semi or satin, thin 1:1. Flood the surface, keep it wet for 10 min, wipe off, dry, repeat. Lightly sand with 320-400. For a thicker film, only thin ~ 10% and brush on, 2-3 coats. For thin film close to the wood, do wipe on coats and wet sand in between with 600.

Use your test pieces of wood. If it blotches too much start with blotch control and then follow the above.

- OSU55


You’re correct in that I want the natural look of the table top. The table legs will be a medium walnut stain. The light top and dark bottom matches much of the contrast we’ve done in the yard.

It sounds like I wi need something down before the final finish. Since I already have the Zinsser Seal Coat I’m going to try that first and see the results.

Emmett’s Good Stuff could be really tough to work with on such a large table. I was told by the local wood shop that it’s forgiving in the sense that if I work in small sections you can’t tell where I stopped and started. Which makes for an even finish. We’ll see on some sample wood first.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#20 posted 10-02-2018 01:44 PM



To answer your question Arm-R-Seal is used for most projects other than outdoor use.
It s a great Idea to do some test pieces of wood before finishing your table just make sure you sand it to the same grit as your table. BTW sanding to 400 grit is not necessary, most projects are fine at 180 grit, the finer grit you use to sand the less penetration you get into your wood, but in this case your not that concerned about penetration,

- a1Jim

Are you saying that sanding to 400 grit between coats isn’t necessary or sanding to 400 in general isn’t.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2191 posts in 2156 days


#21 posted 10-02-2018 01:47 PM

Contrast we’ve done in the yard? Sounds like you plan on using this table outside?
The plot thickens….:))

-- Aj

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a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#22 posted 10-02-2018 02:07 PM

No Woodmag said he has sanded the table to 400 grit between coats 400-600 is fine

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#23 posted 10-02-2018 02:32 PM


To answer your question Arm-R-Seal is used for most projects other than outdoor use.
- a1Jim

Good to know.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#24 posted 10-02-2018 02:36 PM


Contrast we’ve done in the yard? Sounds like you plan on using this table outside?
The plot thickens….:))

- Aj2

I apologize for not stating that earllier. The table will be used outside, but not in direct sunlight. This table is “Phase 4” of the backyard project. Phase 3 was the awning (see image). Under the big area where I installed the fans of the awning will be the table.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#25 posted 10-02-2018 02:36 PM



No Woodmag said he has sanded the table to 400 grit between coats 400-600 is fine

- a1Jim

Gotcha. Thank you for the clarification.

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

651 posts in 1460 days


#26 posted 10-02-2018 03:20 PM

Hmmm! Not sure, but I think if the table is going to be outside, even under cover, it is a new ballgame. I think you should investigate outdoor finishes. While it may not be exposed to the sun, it will have to endure temperature and humidity changes more extreme than if it were indoors. Again, not sure. Others may know better.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2238 posts in 2347 days


#27 posted 10-02-2018 04:24 PM

Being outside, even under cover, is a completely different application. Dont use that Emmets stuff unless it specifically states for exterior, but I still wouldnt use it. Use only exterior rated deck stains or finishes. A good marine varnish probably (and not an mw product of any kind). It will need annual maintenance if you want to keep it spiffy. Exterior vs interior finishing are completely different animals.

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a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#28 posted 10-02-2018 05:31 PM

I agree about outdoor use finishes are totally different, applications other than marine quality finishes just don’t hold up and even marine finishes are not a guarantee of longevity on wood. I know a finishing expert that has written books on finishing and teaches classes on the subject that was talked into finishing 40 Adirondack chairs in a supposed high-end outdoor finish by a very well know finishing supplier saying that their product would hold up for at least 20 years. In 1 year my friend had to bring the 40 chairs back to his shop to strip this product off buy having them dipped by a striping company. All said an done his solution for outdoor use is to use a mahogany or walnut oil or similar oil finish on outdoor wood furniture that needs to be renewed every year or two.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#29 posted 10-02-2018 06:24 PM


I agree about outdoor use finishes are totally different, applications other than marine quality finishes just don t hold up and even marine finishes are not a guarantee of longevity on wood. I know a finishing expert that has written books on finishing and teaches classes on the subject that was talked into finishing 40 Adirondack chairs in a supposed high-end outdoor finish by a very well know finishing supplier saying that their product would hold up for at least 20 years. In 1 year my friend had to bring the 40 chairs back to his shop to strip this product off buy having them dipped by a striping company. All said an done his solution for outdoor use is to use a mahogany or walnut oil or similar oil finish on outdoor wood furniture that needs to be renewed every year or two.

- a1Jim

Now that it’s outdoor table is there a finish that I should use? I’m going to keep the top natural and the legs walnut. Do I still use the Zinsser Seal Coat and then apply the top finish? Because of the outdoor designation does that eliminate all recommendations above?

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a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#30 posted 10-02-2018 06:37 PM

My guess is no you won’t, my concerns is that the shellac will not hold up to sunlight but without it, you may have some blotching, I would try some https://www.amazon.com/General-Finishes-Outdoor-Oil-Quart/dp/B001DSZY1S
on a sample board first on the same wood sanded the same way you sanded the table or a not so obvious spot on the bottom of the table, but the sample board would be my first choice.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#31 posted 10-02-2018 11:15 PM

This is the actual Seal Coat that I got. It doesn’t mention outdoor anywhere. It does say it won’t darken or yellow.

Does the General Finishes Outdoor Oil go directly on the wood since I’m not looking to change the color of the wood? Looking at their website it says it will work over any stain or by itself, so I’m assuming it will.

Should I be looking for a Primer/Sealer to go on before?

Multiple coats with sanding in between. I can’t find “How to use” on their site.

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a1Jim

117615 posts in 3935 days


#32 posted 10-02-2018 11:54 PM

I have only used this product on woods that do not blotch a couple times, so I would still stick with doing the sample boards to see if it your pine blotches using it by itself. When I have used this product it was by itself without any conditioner or blotch control product because I used it on white oak that does not blotch and is an excellent outdoor wood.to get a more defined answer you could call or Email General finishes .

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bilyo

651 posts in 1460 days


#33 posted 10-03-2018 02:44 AM

Using oil base exterior house trim paint without adding the tint has been recommended here and other forums as a good clear finish for full outdoor exposure. I am not yet convinced that it is suitable for full exposure, but I think your under cover situation may be a good application. You may want to experiment with it.

Purchase a can of exterior oil base (some say water base works but not as well) paint off the shelf. Make sure the label says “deep base 4” (or “deep base 5” in the case of Olympic brand). Do Not have color tint added. When you open the can and stir it up, it will look milky. However, it will go on and dry clear. You will not need a sealer or primer. You may want to put on 3 coats. Don’t bother discussing this with the sales people. They probably won’t know what your are talking about and may even refuse to sell it to you without the tint.

The brand I have experimented with did not level very well and left brush marks, but I put it on full strength. You may want to try thinning it some and/or applying with a small detail roller.

View CWWoodworking's profile

CWWoodworking

426 posts in 537 days


#34 posted 10-03-2018 02:59 AM

Wood mag, for spraying, seal coat makes no sense for me. I use a precat laquer which sands and seals better than seal coat

For wipe on finishes I guess I’m just lazy and just like to use one product. When wipe on poly dries, it sands pretty easy. The only thing gained from SC is a little speed. Which if you are using a wipe on finish over, means little because it’s still gonna be a multi day job.

Anything going outside is gonna be a maintenance finish. I would use a wipe on poly of some sort if it doesn’t get rained on at all. Definitely do not use SC outside.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#35 posted 10-03-2018 04:15 AM



Wood mag, for spraying, seal coat makes no sense for me. I use a precat laquer which sands and seals better than seal coat

For wipe on finishes I guess I’m just lazy and just like to use one product. When wipe on poly dries, it sands pretty easy. The only thing gained from SC is a little speed. Which if you are using a wipe on finish over, means little because it’s still gonna be a multi day job.

Anything going outside is gonna be a maintenance finish. I would use a wipe on poly of some sort if it doesn’t get rained on at all. Definitely do not use SC outside.

- CWWoodworking

Do you have a preference of products and how to to use/apply? Anything f I do is going to be wipe on as I don’t have the tools nor the area for spray.

There are so many examples of what to do. Unfortunately most of the first part of this thread is for indoor table use (my fault for not mentioning it) so I have to learn to forget it and learn about outdoor prep and finish.

For me it would help to give me some advice like… use this product and this is how. Then use this product and do this. This helps me determine what type of product to look for and why. When you say, “I would use a wipe on poly of some sort” I’m not sure where to start. Are all poly’s the same? Do I just go down to Lowes/Home Depot and ask for a poly for my outdoor table? I’m not, but I’m not sure what to ask.

I was looking at the General Finishes (per a recommendation above) and will give them a call. They are east coast so I can call them in the morning on the way to work.

Perhaps I’m asking too much, but so far everyone has been so helpful. I’m just trying to do right on this table and make it a center piece of the area. I’m trying not to mess it up. Sorry for the long reply, as this table finish has taken on a life of its own (is a good and bad way). As an amateur it’s a lot to learn and take in. I’m loving it!!

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OSU55

2238 posts in 2347 days


#36 posted 10-03-2018 12:10 PM

Since it is covered I would use either the exterior deep base paint recommended above or an oil based deck “stain” as clear as you can find – no pigment. I used Sherwin Williams ob deck stain with good results. Another option is marine varnish, thin it at least 1:1, and follow my pprevious wipe on wipe off method. Dont build a film, just what soaks in. Repeat when it needs it. Film finishes dont do well outside, they like to flake off.

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#37 posted 10-03-2018 01:32 PM



Since it is covered I would use either the exterior deep base paint recommended above or an oil based deck “stain” as clear as you can find – no pigment. I used Sherwin Williams ob deck stain with good results. Another option is marine varnish, thin it at least 1:1, and follow my pprevious wipe on wipe off method. Dont build a film, just what soaks in. Repeat when it needs it. Film finishes dont do well outside, they like to flake off.

- OSU55

Thank you. Would something like this SW Deck stain be something you’re referring to?

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WoodMag

25 posts in 236 days


#38 posted 10-03-2018 11:04 PM

After exhausting numerous sites and making numerous phone calls to local wood shops I believe I have a plan…..hopefully.

I’m going to RE-SAND the table top from 400 grid down to 180. I’m doing this to open the wood to allow it to absorb some of the oil.

After sanding I’m going to use General Finish Outdoor Oil as the one and only product for the top, bottom and sides of the table. In between coats I’m going to sand with 600 grit and do 3 total coats.

Since the legs are going to be stained darker (light walnut on pine legs) I’m going to find a walnut stain for outdoor use (looking for recommendations). Once dry I will use the General Finish Outdoor Oil to finish the legs.

With everyone expertise, does this sound reasonable?

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8636 posts in 2935 days


#39 posted 10-03-2018 11:37 PM

Sounds like a good plan to me and you can’t go wrong with General Finish.

Looking forward to seeing your table in the Project Forum.

For a darker look on your pine legs General Finish Java works well:

Not sure if it’s rated for out side use though.

View PCDub's profile

PCDub

136 posts in 602 days


#40 posted 10-05-2018 09:19 PM


PCDub – not sure this is a question???

- MJCD


OP asked what to use, recommendation was already made!
I was simply pointing that out.
(conversation clearly way beyond that now)

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2238 posts in 2347 days


#41 posted 10-06-2018 01:45 PM


Thank you. Would something like this SW Deck stain be something you’re referring to?

- WoodMag

Yes. Very similar to the gf outdoor oil, which may be more clear dunno. Choose based on price and availability.

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