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View Tedstor's profile

Talk to me about arbor runout

by Tedstor
posted 09-26-2018 07:59 PM


19 replies so far

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

577 posts in 270 days


#1 posted 09-26-2018 08:05 PM

Have you tried loosening, rotate the blade 1/4 turn, retighten and remeasuring it.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12772 posts in 2739 days


#2 posted 09-26-2018 08:52 PM

0.0005” runout isn’t too bad IMO, mine is in that range. I wouldn’t get rid of any saw over that. Runout on the blade is what it is, and will probably change from blade to blade and maybe day to day. I did runout tests on a lathe chuck and simply wiping down the threads and arbor made a measurable improvement in runout.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 863 days


#3 posted 09-27-2018 02:25 AM

I am unaware of any table saws that use adjustable opposed tapered roller bearings. This set up is the only way you can have true dead zero play or lash in the bearings and shaft. Every table saw I know of and certainly every one ever made by Craftsman has single row ball bearings on the arbor and this method cannot be made without some play or lash. If you indicate .0005” {half a thousandth} at the arbor I don’t think can get any better. I very seriously doubt you will find a blade that is much less than .004” out at 10” {5 inches from the arbor}...it is for sure possible, but probably not very common even with the better quality high end blades.
To say it another way, I really believe that brand new bearings will probably not be any better if at all. I will say one more thing…all this is assuming you have the capability {indicators} that really can read .0005”. Seeing the needle”dance” within .001” may be nothing more than the roughness of the arbor shaft surface itself and not a true reading of .0005” TIR. Half a thou is damn small and you could easily have that much out of round of the shaft itself!!!
Don’t get me wrong, I am not doubting your equipment or your ability to use it. It’s just that reading thousandths is one thing, reading in tenths of thousandths is a different ball game that requires different measuring devices.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

7475 posts in 3727 days


#4 posted 09-27-2018 02:39 AM

I just replace the arbor and bearings in my 46 year old 10” Craftsman table saw.
I measured the run out and it was only about .002” but the one of the bearings was making a clicking noise so I thought I had better replace.

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

View WoodenDreams's profile

WoodenDreams

577 posts in 270 days


#5 posted 09-27-2018 02:48 AM

Rotating the blade only checks the blade difference. This changes with blade use, blade over heating, doing side cove cutting, and so on. Both Woodknack & msinc are correct.

View Tedstor's profile

Tedstor

1678 posts in 2992 days


#6 posted 09-27-2018 10:48 AM

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I am far from a professional machinist, rarely use these measuring tools, and the tools I’m using are far from pro quality…..thus my uncertainty over the legitimacy my concerns. I just remember reading an article in a woodworking magazine that discussed buying used machinery. It indicated that a table saw arbor should have ‘zero’ runout, and cited that small amounts of arbor runout are amplified at the blade. But I’m probably taking that too literally, and the miniscule amount of runout I’m seeing (or not seeing) isn’t within the realm of concern.


I am unaware of any table saws that use adjustable opposed tapered roller bearings. This set up is the only way you can have true dead zero play or lash in the bearings and shaft. Every table saw I know of and certainly every one ever made by Craftsman has single row ball bearings on the arbor and this method cannot be made without some play or lash. If you indicate .0005” {half a thousandth} at the arbor I don t think can get any better. I very seriously doubt you will find a blade that is much less than .004” out at 10” {5 inches from the arbor}...it is for sure possible, but probably not very common even with the better quality high end blades.
To say it another way, I really believe that brand new bearings will probably not be any better if at all. I will say one more thing…all this is assuming you have the capability {indicators} that really can read .0005”. Seeing the needle”dance” within .001” may be nothing more than the roughness of the arbor shaft surface itself and not a true reading of .0005” TIR. Half a thou is damn small and you could easily have that much out of round of the shaft itself!!!
Don t get me wrong, I am not doubting your equipment or your ability to use it. It s just that reading thousandths is one thing, reading in tenths of thousandths is a different ball game that requires different measuring devices.

- msinc


View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8277 posts in 3735 days


#7 posted 09-27-2018 11:05 AM

The acid test is in the end performance….how well does it cut?

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Tedstor's profile

Tedstor

1678 posts in 2992 days


#8 posted 09-27-2018 11:53 AM

It cuts OK. But I don’t consistently get ‘glue ready’ edges. I’m just wondering if I’m losing out on any performance due to the runout? Or if I’m just seeing the limitations of a cheap contractor saw and a mediocre blade?
I’m now convinced its the latter.

Semi-related note- I have a few bucks earmarked to blow on woodworking. I’ve been considering a new entry-level cabinet saw, upgrading to something better I stumble upon via craigslist, or keeping the current saw and buying a track saw instead. So I’m trying to assess the condition of the current saw, and determine if a new saw would be any sort of game changer.


The acid test is in the end performance….how well does it cut?

- knotscott


View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8277 posts in 3735 days


#9 posted 09-27-2018 02:54 PM

Blade and setup can have a significant impact on the end performance of a saw. However, at some point a saw upgrade and optimal setup will only have limited impact on the overall outcome of your cuts….depending on where you’re coming from. The last couple of TS upgrades I did had very little impact on the actual cutting performance and overall project capability of my woodworking. That doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy the upgraded saw more than it’s predecessor though.

Once I upgraded from a Delta compact 36-600 to a General International 50-185 contractor saw, I actually got pretty close to that optimal sweet spot of cost and performance that can be expected on a home shop. I really didn’t need any better performance to do good work. The upgrade from the GI to a Craftsman 22124 hybrid was enjoyable due to the increased mass of the saw, the easier alignment, and larger surface area of the wings, etc., but actual cutting improvement was minimal. Same was true when I upgraded from the 22124 to a Shop Fox W1677 3hp cabinet saw. So even though I’ve never regretted making those upgrades because each saw has simply been nicer to use, more powerful, etc., the actual overall improvement to cutting performance gained very little…..meaning you’d very hard pressed to identify differences in a cut piece of wood off each saw. Influences from the blade, saw setup, having the stock square perfectly square and straight have just as much impact on the cut quality IMO, and in my specific situations.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Tedstor's profile

Tedstor

1678 posts in 2992 days


#10 posted 09-27-2018 02:57 PM

Funny you should mention the 22124. I see these pop up on CL from time to time. There is actually one on FB Marketplace, with a bessy fence, that I’m currently eyeballing.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

8277 posts in 3735 days


#11 posted 09-27-2018 03:08 PM



Funny you should mention the 22124. I see these pop up on CL from time to time. There is actually one on FB Marketplace, with a bessy fence, that I m currently eyeballing.

- Tedstor

I loved that saw! Mine was run on 220v and fitted with a couple of excellent 3/32” thin kerf blades. I only upgraded because of a crazy cashback deal in 2008 that put the SF delivered to my door for a grand total of $903….roughly a $300 out of pocket swing after selling the 22124.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Jared_S's profile

Jared_S

173 posts in 318 days


#12 posted 09-27-2018 03:19 PM



It cuts OK. But I don t consistently get glue ready edges. I m just wondering if I m losing out on any performance due to the runout? Or if I m just seeing the limitations of a cheap contractor saw and a mediocre blade?
I m now convinced its the latter.
- Tedstor

I’ve never seen a truly glue ready surface from any table saw (even with a feeder) or SLR

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12772 posts in 2739 days


#13 posted 09-27-2018 07:01 PM

Don’t forget to check the arbor face, the flat part against the blade, whatever it’s called, that will have a bigger impact on blade runout.

Edit, I just realized I have 12345 posts, lol.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1408 posts in 1995 days


#14 posted 09-27-2018 09:51 PM

I was watching a video the other day about how much a dirty blade can affect the cut quality of a sawcut.
I have been guilty many times of not keeping my table-saw blades clean. It’s not even hard to do so I’m not sure why I neglect it the way I do but my saw sure seems to produce a better & smoother cut when the blade is clean.
It also reduces burning.
As far as .0005 run-out is concerned, I would call it good and go to work.
One of my mentors used to say…”You are not building parts for the Space Shuttle!” “Quit fussing with it!”
I sure miss that guy!

-- When you leave your shop for the night, make sure you can always count to 10.

View therealSteveN's profile

therealSteveN

2584 posts in 933 days


#15 posted 09-27-2018 10:31 PM


The acid test is in the end performance….how well does it cut?

- knotscott

This is the answer, and it is easy to see if you have any effective wobble, and if you are getting a true cut. Take a 3” wide piece of scrap long enough not to be hazardous moving it through the blade while you hold it in a crosscut..

Pull it tight to your miter gauge, and make one crosscut. Those cut ends should fit together nicely. Now leave the piece on the right alone, and take the one on the left, and turn it 1/2 turn, so what was on the top, is now on the table. Do they still meet exactly? If you are making true 90* crosscuts, then that cut should be straight across, if not you have tilt, wobble, or some other problem. So your 2 pieces should match after you cut, and again after you flip half the cut. Obviously you are checking the CUT, so your turn should be away from you, not end to end. I reread what I typed and didn’t want misunderstanding.

Only takes a minute, probably way less, and tells you a lot about how your saw is cutting. Assuming can be dangerous.

-- Think safe, be safe

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10858 posts in 1845 days


#16 posted 09-27-2018 11:32 PM

Ditto. Under .002 is pretty good.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5432 posts in 3602 days


#17 posted 09-28-2018 04:17 PM

.0005” runout is damn good. Don’t forget it’s a”contractor” saw not a cabinet saw. You will never see .00000” on any machine much less a saw. 100 thousand $ CNC machining centers can get pretty close to zero, but can never reach that number.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 863 days


#18 posted 09-28-2018 08:43 PM

It cuts OK. But I don t consistently get glue ready edges. I m just wondering if I m losing out on any performance due to the runout? Or if I m just seeing the limitations of a cheap contractor saw and a mediocre blade?
I m now convinced its the latter.
- Tedstor

I ve never seen a truly glue ready surface from any table saw (even with a feeder) or SLR

- Jared_S

I have a PM2000 that will do it. In fact with most any wood I have cut the edge comes out just as nice as what my jointer can do. I really believe it is mostly the quality blade though. I cant remember the brand, but it came with the saw. I purchased an Amana blade the day I got the saw figuring if they gave me a blade at all it would probably just be some cheesy thing and I was wrong!! it’s kind of thick and gold in color, but it sure does a most excellent job.
I believe the blade is more than half the battle when it comes to smooth accurate cuts. Don’t get me wrong, the saw needs to be set up right too.


I was watching a video the other day about how much a dirty blade can affect the cut quality of a sawcut.
I have been guilty many times of not keeping my table-saw blades clean. It s not even hard to do so I m not sure why I neglect it the way I do but my saw sure seems to produce a better & smoother cut when the blade is clean.
It also reduces burning.
As far as .0005 run-out is concerned, I would call it good and go to work.
One of my mentors used to say…”You are not building parts for the Space Shuttle!” “Quit fussing with it!”
I sure miss that guy!

- fivecodys

I agree and this is a very good point…your blade has to be relatively clean at least within some sort of reason to give you good cuts.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3324 posts in 1746 days


#19 posted 09-28-2018 10:54 PM

+1 on making sure that the flanges (faces?) on the arbor are nice and flat. I seem to recall seeing at least one YouTube video about measuring and correcting that sometime back—might have been Matthias Wandel?

I would probably get a new blade too while you are at it. I have been very impressed with the Marples 50 tooth combination blade I bought a Lowes last year. It was cheap and leaves a finish quality surface on most cuts. On mine at least it is perfectly flat and the ATB teeth are perfectly machined.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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