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View Mr Jones's profile

Disappointed with my Onieda Super Dust deputy

by Mr Jones
posted 06-26-2018 01:11 AM


23 replies so far

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

8717 posts in 3883 days


#1 posted 06-26-2018 01:22 AM

It may be that you need some back pressure from the filter/bag. I’ve never run one with just the cyclone. I know that my SDD on my Harbor Freight DC works flawlessly and I think I may never have to clean or replace my filter again.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

1319 posts in 2625 days


#2 posted 06-26-2018 01:33 AM

I agree with shipwright. You probably need the back pressure. Also make sure there are no air leaks around SDD; that’ll also interfere with the cyclone effect to get all the dust into the bin. The hose connecting to the bin could also be a little too long. The SSD works by creating the cyclone effect to shove the dust down into the bin but with your setup, there doesn’t seem to be much room to create that effect before the suction from your DC grabs hold of the dust. Just some thoughts to consider or try. Mine has also been very effective with very little going into the filter thus far.

View Mr Jones's profile

Mr Jones

13 posts in 3051 days


#3 posted 06-26-2018 01:43 AM


It may be that you need some back pressure from the filter/bag. I’ve never run one with just the cyclone. I know that my SDD on my Harbor Freight DC works flawlessly and I think I may never have to clean or replace my filter again.

- shipwright

Shipwright, I never intended to run it without any filter as i always planned to recycle the air back into the shop. However in regards to back pressure, the filter would certainly add some. I always assumed the ideal ratio was to match the cfm rating of the filters to the blower to eliminate as much back pressure as possible?


I agree with shipwright. You probably need the back pressure. Also make sure there are no air leaks around SDD; that ll also interfere with the cyclone effect to get all the dust into the bin. The hose connecting to the bin could also be a little too long. The SSD works by creating the cyclone effect to shove the dust down into the bin but with your setup, there doesn t seem to be much room to create that effect before the suction from your DC grabs hold of the dust. Just some thoughts to consider or try. Mine has also been very effective with very little going into the filter thus far.

- Rayne

I made the hose connecting to the bin long because i wanted to have the bin on the floor and the collector as high as possible. Perhaps i can make a shelf to bring the bin closer towards the cyclone.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

6378 posts in 3898 days


#4 posted 06-26-2018 02:07 AM

I’ve always been surprised when people get those small cyclones to work right. I have a Tempest cyclone that Penn State used to sell. It looks huge compared to a portable cyclone. I get phenomenal separation with no chips or dust reaching the filter. When I check the cleanout in the pleased filter, it looks like it needs to be dusted with a Swiffer. That’s it.

Once you figure out how to improve separation, switching to hard piping will be the next step. Having that much flex pipe will destroy your useable suction. It makes a huge difference.

Good luck with your DC issue.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

5247 posts in 3074 days


#5 posted 06-26-2018 11:09 AM

I suspect something wrong in your set up and maybe the lack of back pressure. There are too many people who have very good results to think it is a problem with the dust deputy.

View Robert's profile

Robert

4557 posts in 2566 days


#6 posted 06-26-2018 02:49 PM

I run a SDD with a 1 1/2HP blower. Its exhausted out side maybe that’s the diff but it works just fine.

I would replace all that flex with rigid ducts. You can use a 5×6 reducer to transition to duct work.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View pontic's profile

pontic

824 posts in 1694 days


#7 posted 06-26-2018 02:59 PM

bernoulli effect with the 5”to 6” diameters. Creates a decrease in pressure at the 5” side and an increase in pressure at the 6” side. sucking more into that tube and less into the cyclone pot. Fine dust will react more to this increase in outlet pressure. Put a 1” venturi neck on the 6” and see if that works.

-- Illigitimii non carburundum sum

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

3032 posts in 3723 days


#8 posted 06-26-2018 04:24 PM

The connection between the bottom end of the cone and the collection barrel has to be absolutely air tight. Any leak there will suck in air and prevent the chips from falling under the force of gravity. I suspect that is where your problem is.

With your setup, you have at least three connections to seal.
1) The rim of the barrel to the lid.
2) Your down hose to the port in the lid of the barrel.
3) The SDD to the down hose.

There has to be no air at all being sucked into the bottom of the cyclone or it won’t work.

For a test, try putting some suds all over those connections and see if it’s getting sucked into the joint.

Disclaimer : I say all that from stuff I read. My SDD is not installed yet.

-Paul

-- I intended to be a woodworker, but turned into a tool and lumber collector.

View johnstoneb's profile

johnstoneb

3167 posts in 3258 days


#9 posted 06-26-2018 04:32 PM

What Ocelot said.

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

View EarlS's profile

EarlS

4457 posts in 3433 days


#10 posted 06-26-2018 05:12 PM

From Wiki -

A high speed rotating (air)flow is established within a cylindrical or conical container called a cyclone. Air flows in a helical pattern, beginning at the top (wide end) of the cyclone and ending at the bottom (narrow) end before exiting the cyclone in a straight stream through the center of the cyclone and out the top. Larger (denser) particles in the rotating stream have too much inertia to follow the tight curve of the stream, and thus strike the outside wall, then fall to the bottom of the cyclone where they can be removed. In a conical system, as the rotating flow moves towards the narrow end of the cyclone, the rotational radius of the stream is reduced, thus separating smaller and smaller particles. The cyclone geometry, together with volumetric flow rate, defines the cut point of the cyclone. This is the size of particle that will be removed from the stream with a 50% efficiency. Particles larger than the cut point will be removed with a greater efficiency, and smaller particles with a lower efficiency as they separate with more difficulty or can be subject to re-entrainment when the air vortex reverses direction to move in direction of the outlet.

For anyone that is interested in the theory and math, there is a section that goes into the math of cyclonic separation.

So what does this mean? Others have suggested you need some back pressure. Why? That will force the system to a lower flow rate since the blower curve goes from lower flow and higher differential pressure to higher flow and low differential pressure. Why does this matter? Low differential pressure and high flow means higher velocity which means more of the dust is being held up in the airstream rather than hitting the walls of the cyclone and falling out. It’s all about dissipating energy and slowing the particles down in the cyclone so they fall out of the air stream.

The go to source is Bill Pentz, if you have time to read through his site.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6989 posts in 3578 days


#11 posted 06-26-2018 06:08 PM

The first thing I would check is the air tightness of the drum and connections, like they said above…any leak will cause the dust to go right to the filter. I’ve used smoke (a cigar) in the past, but didn’t like waiting 3 days for the shop to air out…so now I use a downy feather from a duck and move it around all the joints. Any leak will draw to fine veins into the fitting.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1736 posts in 2721 days


#12 posted 06-26-2018 11:36 PM


I run a SDD with a 1 1/2HP blower. Its exhausted out side maybe that s the diff but it works just fine.

I would replace all that flex with rigid ducts. You can use a 5×6 reducer to transition to duct work.

- rwe2156

Same here.
No issues to date.
Here is what I did. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/256729

-- A bad day woodworking is still better than a good day working.

View Mr Jones's profile

Mr Jones

13 posts in 3051 days


#13 posted 06-27-2018 01:41 AM



I run a SDD with a 1 1/2HP blower. Its exhausted out side maybe that s the diff but it works just fine.

I would replace all that flex with rigid ducts. You can use a 5×6 reducer to transition to duct work.

- rwe2156

I can simply exhaust the material outside and get the similar results, but i want the exhaust air going into a filter.
With the 3hp blower, there’s more than sufficient suction power and while i can replace the flex to obtain more cmf that isn’t exactly solving my separation issue right?


I ve always been surprised when people get those small cyclones to work right. I have a Tempest cyclone that Penn State used to sell. It looks huge compared to a portable cyclone. I get phenomenal separation with no chips or dust reaching the filter. When I check the cleanout in the pleased filter, it looks like it needs to be dusted with a Swiffer. That s it.

Once you figure out how to improve separation, switching to hard piping will be the next step. Having that much flex pipe will destroy your useable suction. It makes a huge difference.

Good luck with your DC issue.

- pintodeluxe

The Penn State Cyclone seems to be proportionally sized. It looks closer to the tall and narrow pentz design! I remember when it was on sale – price was very decent.


The connection between the bottom end of the cone and the collection barrel has to be absolutely air tight. Any leak there will suck in air and prevent the chips from falling under the force of gravity. I suspect that is where your problem is.

With your setup, you have at least three connections to seal.
1) The rim of the barrel to the lid.
2) Your down hose to the port in the lid of the barrel.
3) The SDD to the down hose.

There has to be no air at all being sucked into the bottom of the cyclone or it won t work.

For a test, try putting some suds all over those connections and see if it s getting sucked into the joint.

Disclaimer : I say all that from stuff I read. My SDD is not installed yet.

-Paul

Rim at the barrel is air tight – It’s a Food grade metal drum with a silicon gasket and a locking clamp
The rest have been checked for leaks and I’ve sealed everything with layers of hvac tape. But I will could check again

- Ocelot


So what does this mean? Others have suggested you need some back pressure. Why? That will force the system to a lower flow rate since the blower curve goes from lower flow and higher differential pressure to higher flow and low differential pressure. Why does this matter? Low differential pressure and high flow means higher velocity which means more of the dust is being held up in the airstream rather than hitting the walls of the cyclone and falling out. It s all about dissipating energy and slowing the particles down in the cyclone so they fall out of the air stream.

- EarlS

I’ll add the filters Shipwright suggested and see how it holds up.

I run a SDD with a 1 1/2HP blower. Its exhausted out side maybe that s the diff but it works just fine.

I would replace all that flex with rigid ducts. You can use a 5×6 reducer to transition to duct work.

- rwe2156

Same here.
No issues to date.
Here is what I did. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/256729

- fivecodys

I read your post. I’d like to avoid the expensive 5” metal ducting from Onieda.
It seems your also venting outside which is an option for me, but i know I’d upset my neighbor’s with the exhaust noise haha!

I honestly feel the problem with this Model of Dust deputy is the 5” inlet. It makes finding anything but flex piping difficult or expensive. I tried finding 5” S&D pipe with no luck (I haven’t found a distributor in Ontario) so i resorted to flex. I could always step up to 6” but that doesn’t make sense when the inlet is 5”

I honestly believe this is why the new model comes with a 6” outlet and 6” inlet and it taller. It must work words better in separation…

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1483 posts in 1901 days


#14 posted 06-27-2018 01:47 AM

I think the people who are talking about too much air velocity are right. My SDD works great with a 1 1/2 horsepower Delta machine. You really need the Super Dust Deputy XL, which has a larger capacity.

View Mr Jones's profile

Mr Jones

13 posts in 3051 days


#15 posted 06-27-2018 02:19 AM



I think the people who are talking about too much air velocity are right. My SDD works great with a 1 1/2 horsepower Delta machine. You really need the Super Dust Deputy XL, which has a larger capacity.

- ArtMann

How would you define works great? are you exhausting into pleaded filters ? How often do you clean them?

I’m leaning towards the dust deputy xl, But i really don’t want to spend another $300 on an Oneida product to have it disappoint me.

I feel if i’m going to buy another cyclone, i might as well buy a clear vue and be done with it

View EarlS's profile

EarlS

4457 posts in 3433 days


#16 posted 06-27-2018 02:33 AM

Before you spend any money on “fixes” try some of these ideas out. Read Bill Pentz’s discussions on his site. Your system should work and work well. If nothing else, contact Oneida and talk to one of their engineers. I had one of their engineers call me the other day to see if he could answer questions and I haven’t bought anything from them yet. It was in response to me sending in a general request for information. They will help you with their product.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

3032 posts in 3723 days


#17 posted 06-27-2018 08:32 PM

I have read somewhere on another thread (I remember now) that Onieda was saying the XL was for 3hp and up. Maybe too much flow is the problem.

I’ll be using mine with a 1.5 HP blower. A 5” hose will go from the outlet of the SDD, through a 5” wye and gate to my filter cabinet, which will have 3 heavy truck filters in it. The other side of the pressure-side Y will have a gate to a pipe going out the window, so that I can close the filter cabinet gate and open the window gate to vent outside at times. ( There is no occupied dwelling out that window for 1/4 mile.) I’ll have a suction side gate to the filter cabinet on a 4” line which can be opened to back-flush the filters while blowing the output of the cyclone out the window. My planer also has a 5” outlet and will be the closest machine to the cyclone. Another 5” wye on the inlet (suction) side of the blower will have the planer on one leg and the rest of the shop on the other leg. I intend to run 6 inch square ducts throughout the shop for everything else, with 4” 45 degree angled ports into the duct for most machines.

There is also a Turkish guy on LJ who made a cyclone out of a traffic cone and is getting good results. You might drive around a bit and see if you can find a big one… to … er… read the make and model number off of so you can order one.

-Paul

-- I intended to be a woodworker, but turned into a tool and lumber collector.

View fly2low's profile

fly2low

88 posts in 1182 days


#18 posted 08-25-2018 09:16 AM

I feel if i m going to buy another cyclone, i might as well buy a clear vue and be done with it

- Mr Jones

That is what I did

-- Rich Gig Harbor, WA

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

5247 posts in 3074 days


#19 posted 08-25-2018 11:51 AM

Why not call Oneida and ask the technical folks.

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

8427 posts in 1798 days


#20 posted 08-25-2018 01:31 PM

send it to me I will fix it and send it back to you LMAO :<))

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN :<))

View mel52's profile

mel52

2063 posts in 1350 days


#21 posted 08-25-2018 05:23 PM

I tape up ALL my connections with electrical tape. Not sure it helps, but can’t hurt in case there is a vacuum or pressure somewhere.

-- MEL, Kansas

View Bill Berklich's profile

Bill Berklich

1179 posts in 1474 days


#22 posted 08-25-2018 09:33 PM

I have a “Baby” DD on my vac and it’s doing great. I no longer have to empty the vac and clean the filter every time I use my saw or planer. Have you tried calling Onieda? Send then a dozen pics and they can probably trouble shoot the issue and get you pointed in the right direction.

-- Bill - Rochester MI

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1380 posts in 2646 days


#23 posted 08-25-2018 11:10 PM

A cyclone separator is not going to totally remove the fine dust that’s like flower, it’s too light and stays suspended in the air, that’s what the filter is for. I have the SDD on a Harbor Freight DC and I do get the very fine dust to go through to the filter but the difference between before the SDD was added is huge. I was cleaning my filter every couple of months, now I have to clean it once or maybe twice a year.

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