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Keep blowing fuse but it's working for everyone else?

by WorksInTheory
posted 02-17-2018 10:39 PM


33 replies so far

View Fresch's profile

Fresch

433 posts in 2309 days


#1 posted 02-17-2018 11:24 PM

Put the same rated fuse back in and return it as it is defectiv, the remote, the fuse did what it was designed to do.
Never put a higher rated fuse in!

View clin's profile

clin

1030 posts in 1384 days


#2 posted 02-17-2018 11:25 PM

First off NEVER, NEVER, NEVER replace a fuse with one rated higher than is supposed to be in something. NEVER!

The fuse is there for a reason. The problem is NOT that the fuse blows. The problem is what is causing the fuse to blow. You can always put in a large enough fuse so it won’t blow. But at that point, why have a fuse at all?

And yes bypassing the fuse is a bad idea. Again, it’s blowing for a reason. Either the switch is defective in some way, or you are simply drawing too much current. Maybe your DC is defective. Just becasue it doesn’t blow your breaker means almost nothing. A breaker is not a fuse, and there are significant variations between identical fuses and breakers. The ratings are nominal.

You might even have a defective breaker and it should be tripping. It happens.

If you are blowing a 20 A, slow-blow fuse quickly, you are drawing a lot more than 20 A.

Are you sure the remote switch is appropriate for this application. You say others do the same thing, but are you using the same make and model of remote switch?

I’m not much help I know, but you really want to get to the root cause of this, and not simply put on a bigger band aid.

-- Clin

View WorksInTheory's profile

WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#3 posted 02-17-2018 11:46 PM

The breaker trips as I have tripped it before when starting 2 machines. But understood – breaker and fuse not the same thing.

If you search the forums here tons of people are using remote switches, christmas light remote switches etc with the same DC – the Harbor Freight fake 2HP one and they all say it works like a charm so was really surprised that it was popping the outlet.

After putting new fuse in, tested it with a shop Vac in another outlet and it worked. Moved it back to the outlet the DC was on but used the Shop Vac and it worked. The DC blew it. Removed the remote control outlet and plug DC directly into outlet – works.

As you probably figured out by now, I know nothing about electrical stuff. Thanks for your advice thus far and to come.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 3253 days


#4 posted 02-17-2018 11:55 PM



The breaker trips as I have tripped it before when starting 2 machines. But understood – breaker and fuse not the same thing.

If you search the forums here tons of people are using remote switches, christmas light remote switches etc with the same DC – the Harbor Freight fake 2HP one and they all say it works like a charm so was really surprised that it was popping the outlet.

After putting new fuse in, tested it with a shop Vac in another outlet and it worked. Moved it back to the outlet the DC was on but used the Shop Vac and it worked. The DC blew it. Removed the remote control outlet and plug DC directly into outlet – works.

As you probably figured out by now, I know nothing about electrical stuff. Thanks for your advice thus far and to come.

- WorksInTheory

Does the switch in the DC have some sort of slow start feature in it that prevents a big initial rush of current because if it does and it is just always switched on so the remote can turn it on that would be why there could be a big inrush of current that isn’t there when you just plug the DC in and use its switch to turn it on and off.

Could also be your DC draws high current for some reason such as having builtup debris in the blower, or it could be that outlet it is in has wiring problems ie not a properly wired outlet.

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WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#5 posted 02-18-2018 12:06 AM

I don’t know if the wiring is an issue, like I said everything else works on that outlet properly. It might have a slow start feature, it’s not quite instant on, there is a wind up.

I could try to plug the whole set up to another outlet, just weary of keep blowing more fuses – didn’t get that many.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10858 posts in 1874 days


#6 posted 02-18-2018 12:13 AM

I’ve seen breakers trip before fuses blow.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 3253 days


#7 posted 02-18-2018 12:16 AM



I don t know if the wiring is an issue, like I said everything else works on that outlet properly. It might have a slow start feature, it s not quite instant on, there is a wind up.

I could try to plug the whole set up to another outlet, just weary of keep blowing more fuses – didn t get that many.

- WorksInTheory

In the electrical sections of hardware stores you can find a plug that goes into an outlet, it has three lights on the back of it to display if the outlet is wired correctly or not. They cost about $5, I find mine very useful.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

595 posts in 2602 days


#8 posted 02-18-2018 12:58 AM

Unless they’ve changed them, the switch on the HF DC is just a switch.

I think it’s probably one of two things:
1. The remote switch is defective. Try plugging some other piece of machinery into the switch and see if you still trip the breaker.

2. You are on the border of tripping the breaker all the time with the DC and are just barely sneaking by. With the extra power draw of the switch, that’s just enough to put you over the limit for the breaker.

There is a potential that the problem is your specific circuit. Try using an extension cord to another outlet in your house.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View InstantSiv's profile

InstantSiv

262 posts in 1983 days


#9 posted 02-18-2018 01:06 AM

I did research on this years ago so my info might be wrong? From my memory the HF dust collector can pull more than 20amps at startup, something like up to 22 or 23 amps. I think 20amp fuse is not enough and why it blew.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

595 posts in 2602 days


#10 posted 02-18-2018 01:12 AM

Ok I realize after the last post that I probably mis-read the OPs situation.

I thought they were tripping the breaker, but it seems like the fuse in the remote is tripping? In that case, then InstantSiv is on the right track as my measurements showed the HF DC definitely drawing more than 20 amps at startup for 1 or 2 seconds until the fan gets up to speed.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View WorksInTheory's profile

WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#11 posted 02-18-2018 01:24 AM

Hey Mike yes I tested #1 and it works so not defective device.

#2 could be it but somehow others on this forum have it working with the same DC so not sure why specifically I am blowing the fuse.

View johnstoneb's profile

johnstoneb

3107 posts in 2561 days


#12 posted 02-18-2018 02:13 AM

Everything works correctly until you plug in the remote. I would think the remote might have a problem

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

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WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#13 posted 02-18-2018 05:30 AM

but the remote outlet works for all other stuff fine

Aside from searching on this site and seeing plenty of examples of this working, I can see on youtube examples also such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-PoY2J12m0

I may just give up and get a foot pedal or something or I will just need to do the walking back and forth to turn it on.

View WorksInTheory's profile

WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#14 posted 02-18-2018 08:07 AM

Okay I think am going to try using this remote w/ a contactor so that the high power is going through the contactor and low power through the remote to trigger the contactor.

View jonah's profile

jonah

2075 posts in 3687 days


#15 posted 02-18-2018 01:13 PM

The remote clearly isn’t rated for 20A. You’re trying it with other too,s that draw a lot less than 20A, and of course it works with those. You need a remote rated for 20A. Do not replace fuses with higher capacity ones, ever.

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

595 posts in 2602 days


#16 posted 02-18-2018 02:59 PM

Which remote is it? We know the DC, so maybe having the other information will help.

Miike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1150 posts in 1949 days


#17 posted 02-18-2018 03:29 PM

I can tell you for sure that the HF DC pulls 70A for a second or so on startup. Most of those remote switches are not motor rated and will work depending on the quality of the internals. Long term they will most likely fail because of the high startup amperage of motors burning up the relay.

View Sunstealer73's profile

Sunstealer73

191 posts in 2480 days


#18 posted 02-18-2018 03:39 PM

What remote switch are you using? I used one for about a year with my HF collector and it finally stopped working. Like others have said, it’s hit or miss whether they work or not. Some are made better than others as well.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5541 posts in 2881 days


#19 posted 02-18-2018 04:00 PM

It almost has to be the startup inrush of current that’s blowing the fuse. I’d suggest getting a different model remote (and return the one you have). DC’s really suck some amps when they are trying to spin that heavy impeller up on start up.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View johnstoneb's profile

johnstoneb

3107 posts in 2561 days


#20 posted 02-18-2018 04:07 PM

I just got a 20A remote from Woodcraft about a week ago. The only problem I have had is getting it to start remotely if I forget and shut the DC off at the switch instead of remotely. Jet 1100 DC.

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

View dhazelton's profile

dhazelton

2837 posts in 2684 days


#21 posted 02-18-2018 04:25 PM

You DC draws more than 15 amps on startup. Turning on a few watts worth of Christmas lights does not take as much juice as starting a heavy motor. You need a remote switch made for your application – just because other people have gotten lucky with a cheap switch is no guarantee you will.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3408 posts in 1775 days


#22 posted 02-18-2018 04:44 PM

A Kill-A-Watt is handy for measuring how much power your tools are drawing. It will show you how many amps are being used at any giving time and also measures the kilowatts over time. I’ve used it to determine which appliances in my house are using significant power even when not in use.

If you are using one of those remotes designed for something other than motors (like for xmas lights), it probably cannot handle the surge of the the DC motor. I use one that is only rated for 13 amps for my shop vac and it works fine but for a DC, you need to get a remote specifically designed for that. Rockler, PSI, iVac and Peachtree all sell units for this purpose. If you have one designed for motors, it must be defective and I would return it.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View WorksInTheory's profile

WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#23 posted 02-22-2018 08:17 AM

Okay everyone thanks for all the advice. I thought I’d give an update of where I am. I solve the issue by hooking up a contactor so that the DC pulls power through there and used the remote outlet as a switch for the contactor to close the circuit. That way none of the amp pull when the DC starts up is going through the remote outlet!

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3408 posts in 1775 days


#24 posted 02-22-2018 02:52 PM

I am curious what contactor and remote switches you actually used. It would interesting for future reference to see if what you did might be cheaper than some of the all-in-one units that are specifically designed for this purpose.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View ohtimberwolf's profile

ohtimberwolf

931 posts in 2740 days


#25 posted 02-22-2018 02:56 PM

Would you like to tell us which one you bought and what it cost and where you bought it? There may be those who would like to know that.
Thanks larry

-- Just a barn cat, now gone to cat heaven.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3398 posts in 1869 days


#26 posted 02-22-2018 03:21 PM


First off NEVER, NEVER, NEVER replace a fuse with one rated higher than is supposed to be in something. NEVER!

The fuse is there for a reason. The problem is NOT that the fuse blows. The problem is what is causing the fuse to blow. You can always put in a large enough fuse so it won t blow. But at that point, why have a fuse at all?

And yes bypassing the fuse is a bad idea. Again, it s blowing for a reason. Either the switch is defective in some way, or you are simply drawing too much current. Maybe your DC is defective. Just becasue it doesn t blow your breaker means almost nothing. A breaker is not a fuse, and there are significant variations between identical fuses and breakers. The ratings are nominal.

You might even have a defective breaker and it should be tripping. It happens.

If you are blowing a 20 A, slow-blow fuse quickly, you are drawing a lot more than 20 A.

Are you sure the remote switch is appropriate for this application. You say others do the same thing, but are you using the same make and model of remote switch?

I m not much help I know, but you really want to get to the root cause of this, and not simply put on a bigger band aid.

- clin

THIS ^^

I don’t understand how a remote switch can make a difference. I think there’s something else going on.

1. A bad motor or capacitor will draw more amps.

2. Make sure you’ve got the right size wire.

3. Make sure its on a dedicated circuit.

4. Get rid of that fuse box and update to a circuit panel.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

595 posts in 2602 days


#27 posted 02-22-2018 03:26 PM

Pretty much any contactors will do, the key things to remember is that contactors have a rating for the actuated circuit and a rating for the coil circuit.

For example:
I use this contactor for my 240V DC on the bin full sensor:
2 pole 240V capable contactor with 120 volt actuator coil

If you need a single pole version for a 110V DC like the HF, you could use this one:
1 pole 240 V capable contactor with 120 volt actuator coil

Don’t get too caught up in the voltage rating of the contactor, you can use the 240V rated one to switch 110v just fine. All of the affordable ones are essentially build for AC units which are going to mostly be 240V and up.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5541 posts in 2881 days


#28 posted 02-22-2018 03:57 PM

That one Mike linked (the 120V model) is the one I used to make a remote for my HVLP turbine….it works well and is plenty cheap.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View brtech's profile

brtech

1065 posts in 3310 days


#29 posted 02-22-2018 04:47 PM

https://www.amazon.com/Packard-C230B-Pole-Contactor-Voltage/dp/B001KGSJ74/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1519317799&sr=8-4&keywords=30a+contactor&dpID=51Z1Y%252Bc4QRL&preST=_SX342_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
looks even better: same contact rating, less cost, and Prime shipping.

That’s an excellent solution to your issue. I have been using the Woods outdoor remote on my HF DC. One died at at least 3 years of service. The second one is going strong so far.

View WorksInTheory's profile

WorksInTheory

177 posts in 1990 days


#30 posted 02-22-2018 05:37 PM

lazyman and ohtimberwolf – good point, thanks for asking. I keep forgetting that even can have something useful to say here too.

Both brtech and MikeDS linked to the exact one I got. That being said, I didn’t understand why I would need a single pole vs 2 pole and pros/cons of either. I just went with the one because I believe it was the one youtuber Turning Round used in his example…. well sort of – he went with 40A. I went with 30A.

If anyone can explain when you go single pole, might be interesting to learn. I know in single pole you only break the current on on line.

View brtech's profile

brtech

1065 posts in 3310 days


#31 posted 02-22-2018 05:43 PM

For a 110 circuit, you only need to switch the hot line, but not the neutral, so you would only need 1 pole

For household 220, you need to switch both hots, but not the neutral, so you would need a 2 pole.

Having a 2 pole for 110 means you can switch two circuits of 30A each. You don’t need to do that, but you can leave the extra pole not connected to anything. For $9, it’s a cheap solution

View Mike_D_S's profile

Mike_D_S

595 posts in 2602 days


#32 posted 02-23-2018 02:57 AM

Agreed, you don’t really need the second pole, but for the money, you might as well get it.

It might not apply for you, but you could use the second side to do something like turn on a light if your DC was located in a closet so you had a visual indicator that it was running.

Mike

-- No honey, that's not new, I've had that forever......

View woodbutcherbynight's profile

woodbutcherbynight

5966 posts in 2797 days


#33 posted 02-23-2018 04:00 AM



Agreed, you don t really need the second pole, but for the money, you might as well get it.

It might not apply for you, but you could use the second side to do something like turn on a light if your DC was located in a closet so you had a visual indicator that it was running.

Mike

- MikeDS

I have this set up, a small red bulb comes one when the DC is on. If I forget to turn it off when I turn the lights off in the shop the red light reminds me to turn it off. Works well and never have had to change the bulb, probably been 20 years?

-- Live to tell the stories, they sound better that way.

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