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View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

220V Power in the Shop

by GrizzlyBagWorks
posted 02-16-2018 08:52 PM


25 replies so far

View woodworm1962's profile

woodworm1962

145 posts in 404 days


#1 posted 02-16-2018 09:01 PM

WHen i wired my shop I thought what the heck I will never trip a breaker casue I will never have everything on at the same time. Like the drill press and table saw and dust collection…

Yes you will.

I did run some dedicated circuits to like my table saw, and another high amp tool BUT all of the outlets are on one circuit and I have to use electrical heat and small fans to blow the hot air around then if I am running my band-saw and the compressor kicks in LIGHTS OUT!

If i do it over each large machine will have its own circuit and the outlets will be a circuit one for each wall. I even have a separate line run for a small AC unit when the weather gets hot

I am getting ready to run a separate one for my compressor!

GESS its always something

-- No one likes the truth...

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1325 posts in 1119 days


#2 posted 02-16-2018 09:50 PM

You are in violation of the National Electrical Code in many ways and you have more than one situation that can be fire hazard. The worst I can see is you have a 12 and 16 AWG wire being protected by a 30A breaker. If a load shorts, the wire could get hot enough to start a fire. You also have several loads fed by a single 240VAC 30A circuit at one time. It doesn’t matter if you only use them one at a time. It is a code violation. You will certainly have to remove all that stuff if you sell the house and it requires an inspection.

View Richard's profile

Richard

11228 posts in 3336 days


#3 posted 02-16-2018 10:02 PM



You are in violation of the National Electrical Code in many ways and you have more than one situation that can be fire hazard. The worst I can see is you have a 12 and 16 AWG wire being protected by a 30A breaker. If a load shorts, the wire could get hot enough to start a fire. You also have several loads fed by a single 240VAC 30A circuit at one time. It doesn t matter if you only use them one at a time. It is a code violation. You will certainly have to remove all that stuff if you sell the house and it requires an inspection.

- ArtMann

Exactly Art!

1-A Licensed Electrician should do the work. 2- An Inspection by the City to APPROVE the Installation 3- INSURANCE! If a fire does break out and it wasn’t an approved Installation, they will NOT pay out Anything! That’s BIG $$$$$’s!

Rick

-- Richard (Ontario, CANADA)

View KeithMathewson's profile

KeithMathewson

4 posts in 1840 days


#4 posted 02-16-2018 10:07 PM

I would recommend removing what you have and installing a small sub panel. A breaker protects the wire, the breaker amp load is related to wire size, two pole breakers are for 220v loads. With the new panel you can install breakers for the various loads and avoid pulling a load off of one leg of a 220v circuit. You can install as many circuits as you wish on the new panel, if the combined load exceeds 30 amps the breaker off the main panel will trip protecting the feed to the sub panel

View Charlie H.'s profile (online now)

Charlie H.

343 posts in 953 days


#5 posted 02-16-2018 10:09 PM

Electrical problems burn the house down.
Gas problems blow the house up and then burn the rest.

-- Regards, Charlie in Rowlett, TX --------I talk to myself, because sometimes I need expert advice.---------

View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

GrizzlyBagWorks

94 posts in 1894 days


#6 posted 02-16-2018 10:37 PM

Thanks guys.

I’m a little confused though. How is this setup any different than say a 110v 20amp circuit in my garage with multiple outlets? Let’s say I’m in my garage running a 14g extension cord with 3-outlets on the end. One is hooked up to a 15 amp table saw and the other to a 7 amp drill press. How is that different than what I’m doing here?

The 12g cord is running to a tool requiring 10amps. My understanding is the cord can handle 20 amps

The 16g cord is running to a tool requiring 7.5amps. My understanding is the cord can handle 13 amps.

So in each case the wiring is 2x the amperage rating of the tool.

I set it up this way to take the dust collector off my 20amp 110 breaker in the garage. I was able to run my 13amp table saw+ dust collector (15amps at 110v) without blowing the 20amp breaker. Isn’t that more of a risk?

Thank you for all your comments. I’ll add that this is a temporary solution, is never plugged in while I’m not in the shop.

View KeithMathewson's profile

KeithMathewson

4 posts in 1840 days


#7 posted 02-16-2018 11:18 PM



Thanks guys.

I m a little confused though. How is this setup any different than say a 110v 20amp circuit in my garage with multiple outlets? Let s say I m in my garage running a 14g extension cord with 3-outlets on the end. One is hooked up to a 15 amp table saw and the other to a 7 amp drill press. How is that different than what I m doing here?

It is very similar to what you describe, except you are pulling off of one leg of a two pole circuit. A 14 gauge extension is undersized for a 20 amp breaker. While what you describe will work, let’s not consider voltage drop right now, you will find that the extension cord gets warm because the wire size is too small. The same thing applies to your setup. If additional load is placed on the smaller gauge line for any reason the line can overheat and burn possibly resulting in a fire.

View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

GrizzlyBagWorks

94 posts in 1894 days


#8 posted 02-17-2018 12:03 AM

So are you guys saying that the only extension cord that should ever should be used on 20 amp circuit is one that is matched to a 20 amp breaker? So a 12g extension? I thought the only critical part was matching the gauge to the amperage draw of the tool itself, not the amperage rating of the breaker.

Thank you!!

I have like 50’ of 10/3 cord. What if I were to change the 12g & 16g to 10 gauge wiring?

I’m not looking to pass an inspection, just to be as safe as possible. I’m not worried about this setup catching my house on fire while I’m asleep. It’s only plugged in while I woodwork and the circuit is broken anyway by the contactor switch.

View KeithMathewson's profile

KeithMathewson

4 posts in 1840 days


#9 posted 02-17-2018 12:22 AM

I’m not an electrician. What I know comes from working next to an electrical contractor for 15 years and listening to what they told me when they repaired or installed equipment for me. Upgrading the wire size will cover the circuit protection assuming your contractor is rated for it. What you are not supposed to do is pull a 110v circuit off one leg of a 240v line. I wish I could tell you why but I just remember early on when I had that in my shop they ran a new circuit to replace it.

View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

GrizzlyBagWorks

94 posts in 1894 days


#10 posted 02-17-2018 12:27 AM

Thanks Keith. The contactor is rated to the breaker, 30amps. The cable from the wall to the contactor is 10g. I can replace everything with 10g if necessary.

Regarding the 120v and 240v. You can’t pull a 120v leg off a 3 wire 240v because there is no neutral, you have two hots and a ground. Some guys will ignore that and pull a a hot leg off and then use the ground as a neutral but you really shouldn’t.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1131 posts in 1864 days


#11 posted 02-17-2018 12:30 AM

NEC only covers the building circuit from panel to the dryer outlet, so you are not in violation of the NEC. NEC doesn’t cover creative stuff that is plugged in. That being said, the bad part is using the 240V outlet to supply 120V because you are using the ground as a neutral conductor which is not safe and can present a shock hazard from the ground.

View jonah's profile

jonah

2039 posts in 3602 days


#12 posted 02-17-2018 01:49 AM

Definitely not safe. You could easily pull 30amps down 14-gauge wire with your setup, which poses a very real risk of fire. You’re not going to blow anything up, but when it comes down to it, is there a real difference between blowing your house up and burning it down?

I usually tamp down the “INSURANCE WON’T PAY FOR IT” fear mongering, but in this kind of a case, an insurance inspector could very easily pinpoint your substandard electrical work as the cause of the fire. It’s different than a slight mistake in sizing an outlet or something like that. This is incredibly obvious as a source of problems – not to mention it just isn’t safe.

Replace all the wiring connected to that 30A circuit with 10AWG. Do not split 240V off for 120V receptacles. Run a single circuit to each 240V receptacle, since that is NEC. You used to be able to run more than one 240V receptacle off a single circuit if the circuit was < 20A, but you can’t do that anymore I don’t think.

View WhyMe's profile

WhyMe

1131 posts in 1864 days


#13 posted 02-17-2018 02:09 AM

NEC is silent on multiple outlets on a circuit based on amperage. The international residential building code does limit multiple outlets on a circuit to 20A be it 120V or 240V.

View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

GrizzlyBagWorks

94 posts in 1894 days


#14 posted 02-17-2018 02:25 AM

Just to clarify, I’m not pulling 110V off anything. I’m using a 30amp 240v contactor switch that is actuated by a 110V remote switch. The 110v remote switch is powered by a 110v outlet. The contactor physically breaks the connection when the 110V remote outlet is de-energized. It’s impossible for power to be going to the dust collector when the remote is off.

I realize my house isn’t going to blow up, the comment was made in jest.

I’m not worry about passing code. This is a temporary setup. It’s never going to draw more than 20 amps. I just want it to be safe.

I really appreciate everyone’s input but I feel like there’s more misinformation regarding this stuff than there is with dust collection. I don’t know what’s legitimate and what’s parroted mis-information. I’m not talking about this thread or it’s comments in particular, rather that’s the general feeling I get after reading through multiple threads.

I think I have a better way to do this than what I original posted. 10a dryer plug straight to the 220V 30a contactor switch. Then a 10a wire out of the contactor to the 6-50R plug receptacle. From there I’ll have a 15’ 10g extension with one end plugging into the 6-50R receptacle and the other end will be an electrical box with two outlets. One for the dust collector, one for the jointer. The way the contactor breaks the connection to both tools whenever I turn the dust collector off and everything will have a 10g cable except for the cords coming out of the machines themselves (6’ of 12g from the jointer (10 amps running) and 6’ of 14g on the dust collector (7.5amps running))

View 49er's profile

49er

172 posts in 1908 days


#15 posted 02-17-2018 02:45 AM

My gosh I sure get tired of all the license for this and license for that. I agree a person should know what he is doing and be sure it is done right but I sure get sick of only this guy can do this work. For example I have never been a licensed electrician but I was an aviation electrician and I was an elevator mechanic and worked as electrician and instrumentation tech at Rohm and Haas chemical company. I can even put in my own hot water heater and I am not a licensed plumper. I do my own AC work auto and home that is a big No No. I installed a geothermal heat pump without a license and it still works after 10 years. Grizzly needs some assistance and maybe someone to check his work but come on enough with the licensed crap. Maybe someone should be licensed before they turn on a table saw or a router, yea you should have to pass a test, that would probably stop some accidents. How about a license before you can shoot a gun that might help. I’ll stop now, I feel better.

-- Correlation is not causation but I did loose my Doctor !!!

View jimintx's profile

jimintx

902 posts in 1888 days


#16 posted 02-17-2018 06:33 AM

I’m with post #15. Good job, 49er.
...

-- Jim, Houston, TX

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2237 posts in 3247 days


#17 posted 02-17-2018 07:00 AM

To be clear, on the matter of 16 gauge (or 14, or 12 gauge) on a 30 amp circuit, that is wrong ONLY if the wires are other than the devices power cord plugged into the outlet.

In other words, if the cord from your power tool is sixteen gauge, it’s not a problem to plug it into a 30 amp circuit.

On the other hand, the circuit breaker protects the house or shop permanent wiring. For example, if you run 10 gauge to a box, you could run it off a 30 amp breaker. However, if you run smaller wire, like 16 gauge off it, you have to drop the breaker down to protect the smaller wire.

View GrizzlyBagWorks's profile

GrizzlyBagWorks

94 posts in 1894 days


#18 posted 02-17-2018 07:22 AM

Thanks Kelly, that’s always been my understanding as well.

The real risk, as I understand it, is that people will have say a 15 amp breaker wired with 14g wire through their walls. They’ll be blowing a breaker right and left so they say “why not upgrade my breaker to 20amp to keep it from tripping”. Then they’re running all their tools, overdrawing that 14g wire but and it heats up and causes an electrical fire.

As far as I can tell what I’m doing is safe since the amperage draw is nowhere near the limit of what the wiring can handle. (again, 7.5amps on 15’ of 16g and 10 amps on 20’ of 12g both joining at a 10g (in the 6-50R surface mount outlet).

My only real concerns are where the 220v comes in straight from the dryer to the 6-50R surface mount outlet where I have the 10g line in twisted together with the 12g output for the extension going to my jointer. I wasn’t sure if I needed a separate junction box to split that up with wire nuts before going to the surface mount outlet and extension cord. What I did seems no different but there might be something I’m missing.

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7251 posts in 2502 days


#19 posted 02-17-2018 07:30 AM

As far as I can tell what I m doing is safe since the amperage draw is nowhere near the limit of what the wiring can handle. (again, 7.5amps on 15 of 16g and 10 amps on 20 of 12g both joining at a 10g (in the 6-50R surface mount outlet).
- GrizzlyBagWorks

You will be fine. I’ve seen some wild stuff plugged into outlets, and what you are doing is pretty plain, albeit a bit on the ugly side :)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

18501 posts in 3979 days


#20 posted 02-17-2018 07:32 AM

If you had seen all the violations I did in 45 years that should have been classed as attempted arson or manslaughter, you would have a better appreciation of licensing laws. The most egregious I can think of right now were kids getting shocked in the bathtub!

-- Bob in WW ~ "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View diverlloyd's profile

diverlloyd

3385 posts in 2160 days


#21 posted 02-17-2018 02:05 PM

If your comfortable and have the knowledge then go on and do it. If you are iffy about the wire size go one or two sizes up. Your not going to blow your house up unless you do a crappy job wiring and a crappy job on a gas line then it could go boom. If it’s just a crappy wiring job then it will just burn down.

49er Rohm and Haas is the nicest of chemical plants in rubber town that I have worked at. ASR wasn’t bad but smelled like a 3 month old mcds fish sandwich would taste.

Oh and he spammer has been reported.

View dhazelton's profile

dhazelton

2837 posts in 2600 days


#22 posted 02-17-2018 03:32 PM

If you have a welder that pulls 42 amps you should have put in a dedicated 50 amp circuit for that.

I was under the assumption that braided wire (THHN) in a box was a no no and it it should always terminate in a plug and outlet (might be incorrect on that but the connection method in the box needs to be approved for THHN as well as solid wire).

You could have wired your new 220 next to the old 220 and put a transfer switch ahead of them so you don’t have to constantly unplug and plug in the cords

You can ignore electrical code if you want, it’s your house. But you asked for opinions and when opinions differing from your own are given you ignore those as well so why ask?

View jimintx's profile

jimintx

902 posts in 1888 days


#23 posted 02-17-2018 04:07 PM

Yes, but: Does it meet code? and Is this safe for my described use?
Are two completely different questions.

The content, and applications of code vary widely from one jurisdiction to another. I live in a home in Houston that was built in 1974, and at that time it was not inside the city at all, so there was no such thing as code. A fair amount of the original electrical, and other components, do not exactly meet current code. That situation does not stop a house sale here. A buyer gets an inspection report that states what was found “wrong” or missing with the place, and then if you want to buy it anyway, you just do so. We did just that, 18 years ago, and I have fixed maybe 20 percent of the so-called out-of-code matters.

Let me further irritate the code police team. In fact, I went around and removed a number of gfci outlets because they were a frequent pain in the ass. Under the master bathroom vanity, there is an exposed run of romex that exits the wall, connects to another length with wire nuts and tape wrapping. That connection hangs there, and the romex then goes back in to the wall to power another outlet down the wall. Not even close to code, and not even close to a problem for us.

-- Jim, Houston, TX

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5389 posts in 2796 days


#24 posted 02-17-2018 04:13 PM

It’s working, and only connected when you are in there…despite some of the “sky is falling” stuff above, I think you’re OK. Electrical questions really run the gamut around here, and while some of the stuff brought up is really a bad idea, what you are doing is not pretty, but functional.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3139 posts in 1690 days


#25 posted 02-17-2018 04:13 PM

I’m certainly not an electrician but to me it just looks like you created an extension cord/adapter to make the plug more convenient. I would probably just put a plug on the jointer cord and plug it in rather than hard wiring which sounds like what you did for the dust vac remote switch. As long as the wire gauge on your cords is appropriate for the amperage and total length, it seems like it would be fine (the shorter the better for motors). You also might want to secure the cover on that 220 plug so that it doesn’t get knocked off while it is plugged into the wall. Perhaps you just loosened it so you could easily pull it off for the video.

One thing that does look a little odd is that the orange extension cord looks more like a 110V cord than a 220? If you rewired the motor on the DC to 220, you really should have the proper plugs on it for 220 and not cheat and use 110v plugs. If the plug coming out of the remote switch box is not a NEMA 6-15 or 6-20, some unsuspecting human might mistakenly plug a 110v appliance into it.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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