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View msinc's profile

Another planer question?????

by msinc
posted 01-24-2018 11:50 PM


31 replies so far

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1441 posts in 1359 days


#1 posted 01-25-2018 12:35 AM

You need to stop dealing with that salesman. He is either profoundly ignorant or trying to trick you. In either case, he is not worth wasting your time on. You obviously know more about the subject than he does. Everything you said is correct and everything he said is wrong.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4191 days


#2 posted 01-25-2018 12:43 AM

The salesman may be confused. Often
face frame cabinet shops get by with just
a planer. Perhaps he’s been talking to those
guys who do that.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#3 posted 01-25-2018 03:45 AM

Thanks fellas, I will bear this information carefully in mind.

View Alex Lane's profile

Alex Lane

552 posts in 4433 days


#4 posted 01-25-2018 04:15 AM

I wonder why nobody I know of has marketed a planer with the drive rollers or a conveyor belt under the board being fed through. With minimal down-pressure “idle” rollers on top to prevent the board lifting, wouldn’t that allow the planer to basically function as an upside down jointer, removing cup and truly flattening one side before planing to thickness

Million dollar idea here? :-)

-- Alex...builder of wooden wings for vintage sport biplanes...I'm your wingman :)

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ArtMann

1441 posts in 1359 days


#5 posted 01-25-2018 04:22 AM

I cant’ think why it wouldn’t work. I use my drum sander in the way you suggest but it takes a long time to flatten a board taking off 0.015” per pass.

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4191 days


#6 posted 01-25-2018 04:24 AM

.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#7 posted 01-25-2018 04:27 AM


I wonder why nobody I know of has marketed a planer with the drive rollers or a conveyor belt under the board being fed through. With minimal down-pressure “idle” rollers on top to prevent the board lifting, wouldn t that allow the planer to basically function as an upside down jointer, removing cup and truly flattening one side before planing to thickness

Million dollar idea here? :-)

- Alex Lane

Yes sir, that sounds like a good enough idea to me!!! I have wondered about a small little plastic “kicker thing that was on a track to push the board thru the planer…kind of like those things at the automatic car wash that pushes your car thru. Rollers with a little tension to hold the board down would do it.
I guess they are too busy making saws that freeze instantly and destroy $100 plus worth of gizmo and another $100 blade if you touch it when it’s running to manufacture a machine that makes sense. Or how about a slider that takes up 20 feet long of shop space and basically turns a $5400 plus table saw into a $1600 panel saw?? Does anyone even make a first rate planer sled????

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#8 posted 01-25-2018 04:37 AM


I cant think why it wouldn t work. I use my drum sander in the way you suggest but it takes a long time to flatten a board taking off 0.015” per pass.

- ArtMann

Never having used a sled, does anyone use one and can tell us how much you can take off on one pass? Is it just like planing a board without it?
It must be me, but doesn’t it seem strange that no one has come up with a machine that will positively and easily make a board flat AND plane it to thickness quickly and at the same time? We went to the moon 49 years ago…but this is asking too much?

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4191 days


#9 posted 01-25-2018 04:44 AM

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#10 posted 01-25-2018 05:00 AM

That thing failed the “easy” part….I am sure it is easy to use, but to pay for???

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5415 posts in 2852 days


#11 posted 01-25-2018 05:08 AM



- Loren


Is this going to raise my electric bill?

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

886 posts in 1645 days


#12 posted 01-25-2018 04:08 PM



Never having used a sled, does anyone use one and can tell us how much you can take off on one pass? Is it just like planing a board without it?
- msinc

I have used a sled with my Dewalt 734 for several years and have successfully flattened a lot of cherry lumber with it.

First I have to state the obvious: Your wood must be dry or, once you have it flattened, it will likely cup or warp again as it continues to dry.

I use a very simple sled that is a torque box (made like a hollow core door) for stiffness and it has plastic laminate on the top. I simply stabilize the board I’m flattening on the sled with little wood wedges anywhere there are gaps under the board. The wedges get glued in with hot melt glue. Sled and board are then fed through the planer together using infeed and outfeed roller stands. I will run it through enough times (taking about 1/64” to 1/32” per pass) to produce a good reference plane for planing the other side and then remove it from the sled to finish planing both sides. The glue is easily poped off of the laminate with an old chisel.

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msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#13 posted 01-25-2018 06:54 PM

Thanks for the info, sir. Hot melt glue sounds like a much better way to hold the board on the sled. The sled I saw just used stick on pieces of sandpaper on the sled. The board being planed just sat on them. I guess as long as it didn’t move you were okay, but I didn’t like the idea from the start.

View PPK's profile

PPK

1548 posts in 1352 days


#14 posted 01-25-2018 06:57 PM

Something interesting to note: I own the DeWalt 734 planer, and I ran several hundred BF of rough sawn cherry, and walnut through it. None of them were cupped BADLY, but some were definately cupped up to 3/16” over the 6-8” width. I took passes no greater than 1/16” (starting with the cup upwards), and removed it all very successfully. A lot of people love the 735, but I prefer the 734 for this reason and several others. Perhaps it could be a simple as the feed rollers have less pressure on them? I dunno…
But, a sled would sure solve your problem. Or running them across a wide jointer. I sure DON’T think that a larger more expensive planer would solve your problem of removing cupping.

-- Pete

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msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#15 posted 01-25-2018 07:06 PM



Something interesting to note: I own the DeWalt 734 planer, and I ran several hundred BF of rough sawn cherry, and walnut through it. None of them were cupped BADLY, but some were definately cupped up to 3/16” over the 6-8” width. I took passes no greater than 1/16” (starting with the cup upwards), and removed it all very successfully. A lot of people love the 735, but I prefer the 734 for this reason and several others. Perhaps it could be a simple as the feed rollers have less pressure on them? I dunno…
But, a sled would sure solve your problem. Or running them across a wide jointer. I sure DON T think that a larger more expensive planer would solve your problem of removing cupping.

- PPK

That is interesting…no matter how slow or fast or how light or heavy of a cut I take with the 735 it will not remove any cup at all. Not even 3/16”

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

886 posts in 1645 days


#16 posted 01-25-2018 07:53 PM



That is interesting…no matter how slow or fast or how light or heavy of a cut I take with the 735 it will not remove any cup at all. Not even 3/16”
- msinc

I don’t think this has anything to do with the type, size, or make of planer. You don’t say how thick the board is that you are planing. All things being equal, the planer knives are straight and won’t cut on a curve. The only answer that comes to my mind is that the rollers are pressing the board flat (or nearly so) as it goes by the cutting head and then it springs back on exiting. Also, a 1/6” cut is a lot. I think when you try to make a deeper cut, the feed rollers put more pressure on the board.

By putting the board on a sled and supporting the edges where ever there are gaps you will prevent this flexing and the planed surface should come out flat. When you are dealing with a warped board mounted on a sled, it is hard to know exactly where your high spots are. The first pass especially should be set very light. I will often set mine so that the first pass just kisses the high spots. Or, if I guess wrong, it may miss altogether. Then I work down from there with subsequent passes of about 1/32”.

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msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#17 posted 01-25-2018 08:07 PM

.....You don t say how thick the board is that you are planing…...

........Also, a 1/6” cut is a lot.
- bilyo

In my first post I stated that the rough cut wood is 5/4” {one inch} and I am planing it to .750”-.800” {3/4”} I agree that thin wood gets pressed flat by the rollers. Thicker wood would not and it will plane nice and flat. It’s definitely the roller squeeze causing the problem.

A 1/6” cut? I think you mean 3/16”, that is not the amount of the cut, I was referring to the measured amount of the cupping or warp.

View jmos's profile

jmos

916 posts in 2912 days


#18 posted 01-25-2018 08:07 PM

You could try placing a long strip of wood (cut at the table saw with a thickness equal the depth of the cup) under the board. Tape, tack, or hot glue if needed. That should prevent the board from flattening out and let the planer create a flat. Once one side is flat the other side is easy.

This is very similar to the issue you have on a jointer with a bowed board; if you press too hard you get a thinner bowed board.

-- John

View Jeff Heath's profile

Jeff Heath

107 posts in 3612 days


#19 posted 01-25-2018 08:40 PM

Think of a planer as a “thicknesser”. It does not flatten wood. It is designed to make one side of a piece of timber parallel to the other side. It is not designed to remove cup or twist. If you start with a twisted, warped board, you will end up with a thinner twisted, warped board with both faces parallel to each other.

The jointer is the tool that must be used first. If you don’t have one, you can make a flattening rig with a router, or do the work with hand planes.

The pressure bar and feed rollers of a planer are always going to press the cup out of a board right before it goes past the cutterhead. This temporarily flattens the board for the cut, but as soon as it passes out the outfeed side, the warp/cup springs right back into place.

I made a YouTube video on this process for my channel. You can search my name on YouTube and look for the video titled “Jointer Planer 101”, which will demonstrate the proper way to get flat, even thicknessed lumber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94DDXOIeACA&t=40s

-- Jeff Heath

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2447 posts in 2532 days


#20 posted 01-25-2018 10:48 PM

A planer sled can be very simple. I use a piece of laminate shelving – no honeycomb or any other construction. A piece of wood is screwed down across the sled at one end, to hold the board in place, usually about 3/8” thick, more or less as needed. Another piece of wood is put across the other end of the sled at the end of the board, held down with double stick tape. I use craft (popsicle) sticks cut down in length and taped together for diffent thicknesses as shims under the board – sometimes they get some tape or hot glue to hold them. There has to be a cross piece at each end for the feed roller and the cutter forces, which are opposing. I dont remove much, 1/32 or so each pass. Ill do a little hand planing if its too bad, but really you want to cut your pieces down to rough size before planing. That reduces the twist or cup amount that needs to be removed.

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bilyo

886 posts in 1645 days


#21 posted 01-26-2018 01:05 AM


In my first post I stated that the rough cut wood is 5/4” {one inch} and I am planing it to .750”-.800” {3/4”} I agree that thin wood gets pressed flat by the rollers. Thicker wood would not and it will plane nice and flat. It s definitely the roller squeeze causing the problem.
- msinc

Sorry. Didn’t read carefully enough

A 1/6” cut? I think you mean 3/16”, that is not the amount of the cut, I was referring to the measured amount of the cupping or warp.
- msinc

I didn’t mean to suggest that 1/16” was the cut you used. Only that 1/16” is a fairly heavy cut.


Think of a planer as a “thicknesser”. It does not flatten wood. It is designed to make one side of a piece of timber parallel to the other side. It is not designed to remove cup or twist. If you start with a twisted, warped board, you will end up with a thinner twisted, warped board with both faces parallel to each other.

The jointer is the tool that must be used first. If you don’t have one, you can make a flattening rig with a router, or do the work with hand planes.

A planer will do a fine job of flattening a board if you use a sled. As with a jointer, you can start with a warped, twisted, cupped board and end up with a flat one. You don’t have to start with a jointer or use a router flattening rig or hand planes. Don’t mean to disparage any of them.


A planer sled can be very simple. I use a piece of laminate shelving – no honeycomb or any other construction.

My first sled was made similar to what you suggest. I found that it was too flexible and this had an adverse effect on evenness and consistency of the planer cut. My torsion box is only slightly thicker, but is stiff enough (and still relatively light weight) that supporting the infeed and outfeed ends to keep it from bending downward is not critical.

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msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#22 posted 01-26-2018 01:25 AM

”I didn’t mean to suggest that 1/16” was the cut you used. Only that 1/16” is a fairly heavy cut.”

I agree, I generally try to take about .030” or roughly 1/32” per pass. I could easily take 1/16” up to almost 1/8” with the old 15” Grizzly I had, if the blades were sharp and the wood wasn’t white oak or ash. I have a pretty decent joiner now and it will take 1/16” easily when face joining, but that’s half the width too.

I am going to look at this other planer, and i might even end up owning it, but I really think I need to start working on a decent sled. Thanks again fellas for all the info, as always it is greatly appreciated!!!!

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2447 posts in 2532 days


#23 posted 01-26-2018 01:29 AM

Well, not sure why yours was too flexible. I’ve not had any issues, works great. Its possible some of the planers without a locking head could get overwhelmed by a long heavy load not supported. I hold the back end up till it feeds through about 1/2 then hold up the front end till it exits. I add this for those contemplating a sled, you solved your issue.

View dschlic1's profile

dschlic1

463 posts in 2512 days


#24 posted 01-26-2018 06:04 PM

I have a DW735 and have run cupped boards through it. It did remove the cup. I tend to take very shallow cuts 1/32” or less with each pass at the finishing speed.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#25 posted 01-26-2018 06:35 PM



I have a DW735 and have run cupped boards through it. It did remove the cup. I tend to take very shallow cuts 1/32” or less with each pass at the finishing speed.

- dschlic1

I wish that was the case with the one I have, and please don’t think that I don’t believe you. I have tried taking so little that you cant even hear a difference in the machine noise…the only way I can tell it’s taking off wood is to hold my hand in front of the chip discharge and feel small pieces hit the palm of my hand. Still leaves cup in the boards.

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

886 posts in 1645 days


#26 posted 01-27-2018 03:13 AM



Well, not sure why yours was too flexible. I’ve not had any issues, works great. Its possible some of the planers without a locking head could get overwhelmed by a long heavy load not supported. I hold the back end up till it feeds through about 1/2 then hold up the front end till it exits. I add this for those contemplating a sled, you solved your issue.
- OSU55

I can’t explain why mine didn’t work properly. Could only make some guesses. I assume that you have planed longer (5’ or more) boards using your sled. After planing both sides have you checked the thickness with calipers comparing end thickness to the thickness in the center? Using the flexible sled, my long board thickness varied.

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OSU55

2447 posts in 2532 days


#27 posted 01-27-2018 01:45 PM

Yes I checked thickness along the length -same

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

886 posts in 1645 days


#28 posted 01-27-2018 03:06 PM

Good. I’m glad to know that you have had as much success with your sled as I have with mine. Other than the construction (or non-construction) of the sleds themselves, our “stick-down with wedges” techniques are very similar. I find that having the board and wedges stuck down, I don’t need the front and back cross pieces (most of the time).

I hope we have helped minc solve his problem.

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#29 posted 01-27-2018 06:36 PM



Good. I m glad to know that you have had as much success with your sled as I have with mine. Other than the construction (or non-construction) of the sleds themselves, our “stick-down with wedges” techniques are very similar. I find that having the board and wedges stuck down, I don t need the front and back cross pieces (most of the time).

I hope we have helped minc solve his problem.

- bilyo

Yep, as I see it the answer lies in a good sled. That will get a board flat, but I also understand that there is no guarantee it will stay that way. One thing I have found is that boards that warp seem to want to be that way and can/will often times move again after they are completely flat. This is one of the reasons I like to use glued up panels instead of solid. If I build something with wider panels, like a desk or big cabinet I rarely have boards wider than 3 or 4 inches.
All that said, when my other machines arrive and I go to pick them up I am still going to see what this cat has to say about how the other planer he’s selling take cup out of boards. Should be this coming week and i will let you guys know what he had to say. Thanks again for all the info!!!

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5415 posts in 2852 days


#30 posted 01-27-2018 09:41 PM

I haven’t read all the latest replies. I will say this to the OP. Get a decent jointer to go with your planer and IMO life will be good and easier. There must be a good reason manufacture make such machines of us non hand tool guys.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 1046 days


#31 posted 01-28-2018 03:06 AM

Well, I have a Powermatic 54A joiner. I like it, but it’s only a 6 inch one, it does have the long table on it. A sled is a lot cheaper and I will build one to play with, but yep…I have been giving serious thought to a wider joiner with a Shelix head. As posted previously, most of the time if I need panels that have any width to them I am gluing up 3 or 4 inch wide boards. So far this joiner has worked okay for facing those. Still, a wider one would be better and I hate to get a Shelix for the one I have now only to later buy a bigger joiner.

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