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View harum's profile (online now)

band saw question

by harum
posted 01-24-2018 03:34 AM


47 replies so far

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#1 posted 01-24-2018 03:42 AM

First off, ignore the tension markings on your machine… those are there to get you in the ballpark only. Secondly, have you watched the obligatory band saw tune up video?

Band Saw Clinic with Alex Snodgrass

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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John_

197 posts in 2063 days


#2 posted 01-24-2018 03:49 AM

Blade Tension

When I finally broke down a bought a proper ‘tension gauge’ I was surprised how under tension my blade was – yet I was using the chart and the marks that came with my bandsaw.

Unfortunately, a proper tension meter is quite expensive – around $300, although I was able to pick up a used one for about half that on eBay

example:
http://www.lenoxtools.com/pages/tension-meter.aspx

There are several youtube videos on how to make your own tension meter using a dial indicator you may want to look into or a lot of people use the ‘flutter’ test

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bandsaw+tension+meter

Also a good video on how to set up the blade (Alex Snodgrass)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU&t=1074s

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AandCstyle

3206 posts in 2614 days


#3 posted 01-24-2018 10:32 PM

Harum, I have gotten good results using the Timber Wolf flutter test. HTH

-- Art

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Loren

10477 posts in 4005 days


#4 posted 01-25-2018 12:45 AM

Perhaps the guides aren’t set close enough
to the blade sides. Perhaps there isn’t enough
tension.

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#5 posted 01-25-2018 01:18 AM

Grab some scrap wood and a day and get to work AFTER you watch the Snodgrass video. Do exactly what he says as each and every step done correctly helps to eliminate problems. I am a relative novice also. More than any other tool I find that a BS is like a nervous system. You have a limp but it could be caused by a pulled muscle, a pinched nerve in your back or a brain tumor or any number of things which can cause any number of other things to be impacted. The flutter test is good but it is still subjective. After EVERYTHING is adjusted per Snodgrass try turning that tension up incrementally and testing it until it sounds like it’s slowing the motor. You might be surprised at how tight it’s supposed to be as John H said above. Bsaws are wonderful when they work but are a true PITA when they don’t. Like I said, get a bunch of scrap and set aside a whole day. Don’t even think about resawing until everything else is working perfectly.

JMHO

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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Knockonit

541 posts in 559 days


#6 posted 01-25-2018 01:33 AM

It took me quite a few tries to get it right, on a delta 14’’, a new blade, tension adjusting, and guides adjusted right. a little frustrating, but with perseverance it will bear fruit,
I was so happy with my delta turning out so well, i did the same to the cheapo HF 14’’ unit, while it took a lot more effort, i did get it to where i can resaw up to 3/16’’ in a decent straight line, takes patience, but it will come about.
and once you do, its like you hear harps and stuff. lol

good luck,nothing like a tuned band saw.

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runswithscissors

3031 posts in 2382 days


#7 posted 01-25-2018 01:44 AM

The best I was able to do only let me hear accordions.

-- I admit to being an adrenaline junky; fortunately, I'm very easily frightened

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#8 posted 01-25-2018 01:44 AM

Thanks for the responses! Well, I’ve set up the saw once again following the video—nothing changed. 1” cuts are okay; the 3-1/2” cuts fail miserably.

Using “flutter” test I tensioned the blade until it stopped “fluttering” and then added an extra turn as suggested by the manufacturer but when cutting the blade still entered 3” boards at a shallow angle and didn’t straighten up until it bound. I kept increasing the tension until the blade has changed tracking and started hitting the aluminum blade guard. I re-checked and, yes, changing the tension changes the tracking of the blade—who knew! Will see if anything else could be done here (after I get a new blade).

Can I continue tensioning and adjusting the tracking? What breaks first, the band saw or the blade? The tensioning knob is getting hard to turn.


Perhaps the guides aren t set close enough
to the blade sides. Perhaps there isn t enough
tension.

- Loren

The guides on the right side wear pretty quickly. The blade twists and files down the coners.

Bsaws are wonderful when they work but are a true PITA when they don t.

- Andybb

Yes, kind of frustrating; this is a new 14” Jet and I haven’t been able to cut anything so far.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#9 posted 01-25-2018 01:58 AM

I kept increasing the tension until the blade changed tracking and started hitting the aluminum blade guard. I re-checked and, yes, changing the tension changes the tracking of the blade—who knew!
[...]
The guides on the right side wear pretty quickly. The blade twists and files down the coners.
- harum

Something is not right with your machine… increasing tension should not alter tracking, and a blade rubbing against a guide block will not ‘file down the corners’ unless you have the teeth hitting it (which would also ruin your blade and cause it to pull to one side like you mention).

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Loren

10477 posts in 4005 days


#10 posted 01-25-2018 02:02 AM

Check the tires for lumps. Hold something
like wooden skewer against the tire so it
just barely touches and rotate the wheel.
If the tires are lumpy this can be corrected.

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harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#11 posted 01-25-2018 02:14 AM


Check the tires for lumps. Hold something
like wooden skewer against the tire so it
just barely touches and rotate the wheel.
If the tires are lumpy this can be corrected.

What kind of saw do you have?

- Loren

This is JET JWBS-14CS. The one that comes in two boxes.

Something is not right with your machine… increasing tension should not alter tracking, and a blade rubbing against a guide block will not file down the corners unless you have the teeth hitting it (which would also ruin your blade and cause it to pull to one side like you mention).

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Tension did change tracking on this saw: increasing the tension moved the blade forward, decreasing moved it back. When I tensioned the blade well above the 3/4 mark on the scale, the blade was about to slip off the wheel.

The blade twists as soon as it touches the wood and enters at an angle.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

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MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#12 posted 01-25-2018 02:18 AM

This is JET JWBS-14CS. The one that comes in two boxes.
[...]
Tension did change tracking on this saw: increasing the tension moved the blade forward, decreasing moved it back. When I tensioned the blade well above the 3/4 mark on the scale, the blade was about to slip off the wheel.
- harum

Check your upper wheel pivot bracket… sounds like it’s either bent or broken.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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mrg

860 posts in 3356 days


#13 posted 01-25-2018 02:19 AM

How old is the saw? The casting for the upper wheel adjustment sounds like it may have broken. Take the blade off and remove the upper wheel, I will bet the hinge is cracked.

-- mrg

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JohnMcClure

617 posts in 997 days


#14 posted 01-25-2018 02:22 AM

My blade always tried to pull the board away from the fence, if that makes sense. Angling through the workpiece. I eventually determined it was due to drift angle, and adjusted my fence to align with the natural drift instead of square to the blade. This was with a 3tpi 1” resaw blade sawing 12” diameter cherry logs into boards.
HOWEVER it may be something else, I’m fairly new to the BS too, I know there a lot of variables that can be adjusted.

-- I'd rather be a hammer than a nail

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#15 posted 01-25-2018 02:37 AM


Check your upper wheel pivot bracket… sounds like it s either bent or broken.


How old is the saw? The casting for the upper wheel adjustment sounds like it may have broken. Take the blade off and remove the upper wheel, I will bet the hinge is cracked.

Do “upper wheel pivot bracket” and “upper wheel hinge” mean this thing?

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#16 posted 01-25-2018 02:41 AM

Do “upper wheel pivot bracket” and “upper wheel hinge” mean this thing?
- harum

The triangular looking part in the middle that pivots and holds the upper wheel shaft.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#17 posted 01-25-2018 03:52 AM


Tension did change tracking on this saw: increasing the tension moved the blade forward, decreasing moved it back. When I tensioned the blade well above the 3/4 mark on the scale, the blade was about to slip off the wheel.

- harum

Tension shouldn’t really change the “tracking” front to back on the wheels. If it does then something is broken. But, where the blade tracks on the wheels can affect “drift” or lack thereof. Brad usually knows what he’s talking about when it comes to these things.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

1190 posts in 1897 days


#18 posted 01-25-2018 04:02 AM

I can only add to check your feed rate. Going too fast will alter the blade direction on top of burning. Also, this may be a stupid question, but are the blade tooth facing the right direction?

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harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#19 posted 01-25-2018 04:05 AM

The pivot with the upper wheel shaft, the bracket, and the grooves in the casting for the bracket to slide in all look intact: no bends or cracks. Could it be that this is too cheap a saw to work as advertised? I’ve had such an experience with a cheap Ryobi router table which couldn’t be set up for things like edge jointing due to poor manufacturing.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#20 posted 01-25-2018 04:15 AM



I can only add to check your feed rate. Going too fast will alter the blade direction on top of burning. Also, this may be a stupid question, but are the blade tooth facing the right direction?

- Rayne

Feed rate doesn’t change anything for me. The blade teeth point downwards. The thicker board I use the more the blade deflects/twists. Could it be that the blade went dull quickly?

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 861 days


#21 posted 01-25-2018 04:18 AM

It doesn’t look like to me you are asking a lot from this bandsaw…how ever cost effective it is. You should certainly be able to get it adjusted to cut properly the cut you are wanting to do with it. That said, when one of my small bandsaws acted like this it was a bad bearing. I am not going to say you don’t need more tension either, but there is something wrong. I would suggest you remove the blade and one at a time grab each wheel by putting one hand at 9:00 o’clock and the other at 3:00 o’clock and try pushing one away from you while bringing the other towards you. Alternate back and forth {kind of try to wiggle the wheel itself on it’s axis} to check for play in the bearings. See if you can feel play in the wheel. It should spin freely, not make any noise doing it and not have any play when you move it like I am suggesting. Just because it is relatively new doesn’t mean a bearing cant still go bad.
I have had guys say the blade itself can cause all sorts of weird events, I have never had one do that, but then I have never had a lot of things. If the bearings seem okay maybe try a different blade just to see if it does the same thing.

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spunwood

1202 posts in 3193 days


#22 posted 01-25-2018 04:27 AM

Sorry to ask, but is the blade oriented with the teeth in the correct direction?

-- I came, I was conquered, I was born again. ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν

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Rayne

1190 posts in 1897 days


#23 posted 01-25-2018 04:30 AM


I can only add to check your feed rate. Going too fast will alter the blade direction on top of burning. Also, this may be a stupid question, but are the blade tooth facing the right direction?

- Rayne

Feed rate doesn t change anything for me. The blade teeth point downwards. The thicker board I use the more the blade deflects/twists. Could it be that the blade went dull quickly?

- harum


Not that quickly. Take some photos of your setup. Blade position on the top wheel, top and bottom guides, tension spring. Maybe the collective can figure it out from that. I have a 14” Porter Cable and it works fine.

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MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#24 posted 01-25-2018 04:35 AM

The pivot with the upper wheel shaft, the bracket, and the grooves in the casting for the bracket to slide in all look intact: no bends or cracks.
- harum

Did you yank the upper wheel to verify and to examine things? It doesn’t always look obvious, and if that is the problem, it will continue to get worse until it eventually turns into this:

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#25 posted 01-25-2018 04:44 AM



It doesn t look like to me you are asking a lot from this bandsaw…how ever cost effective it is. You should certainly be able to get it adjusted to cut properly the cut you are wanting to do with it. That said, when one of my small bandsaws acted like this it was a bad bearing. I am not going to say you don t need more tension either, but there is something wrong. I would suggest you remove the blade and one at a time grab each wheel by putting one hand at 9:00 o clock and the other at 3:00 o clock and try pushing one away from you while bringing the other towards you. Alternate back and forth {kind of try to wiggle the wheel itself on it s axis} to check for play in the bearings. See if you can feel play in the wheel. It should spin freely, not make any noise doing it and not have any play when you move it like I am suggesting. Just because it is relatively new doesn t mean a bearing cant still go bad.
I have had guys say the blade itself can cause all sorts of weird events, I have never had one do that, but then I have never had a lot of things. If the bearings seem okay maybe try a different blade just to see if it does the same thing.

- msinc

Thanks msinc! Will test the bearings.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#26 posted 01-25-2018 04:48 AM


Could it be that the blade went dull quickly?
- harum

No. I’ve had it happen to me especially when I change blades and then I start from scratch with the Snodgrass thing and 4 hrs later Arrgh…i.!!!! But I have an old Harbor Freight junker with a riser block and shims.. That’s why I’m buying a new bandsaw.

You have a brand new Jet machine so it shouldn’t take this much effort to dial in. Between you doing what certainly seems like your due diligence and also following Snodgrass there could be an issue with the saw. I think it’s time to call Jet customer service and hope for a good tech on the other end of the line. Tell them about that tensioning changing the tracking thing.

Then report back. Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#27 posted 01-25-2018 05:06 AM


Did you yank the upper wheel to verify and to examine things? It doesn t always look obvious, and if that is the problem, it will continue to get worse until it eventually turns into this:

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Yes, I took the wheel off the shaft to pull the assembly out and inspected the parts. The bracket is apparently from Taiwan:

Yes, there’s still a chance that under real tension a crack may show up somewhere.

I sent an email to customer service with a specific question about tracking position changing with blade tension.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View Rayne's profile

Rayne

1190 posts in 1897 days


#28 posted 01-25-2018 05:23 AM

Maybe try a smaller blade? 3/8” or 1/4”? 1/2” is the max on that saw, isn’t it? If the gullets of the blade are in the center of the wheel using the smaller blades, that may help resolve the problem too (if you haven’t tried already)

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MrUnix

7356 posts in 2556 days


#29 posted 01-25-2018 06:09 AM

Yes, I took the wheel off the shaft to pull the assembly out and inspected the parts.
[...]
I sent an email to customer service with a specific question about tracking position changing with blade tension.
- harum

Well, that is a head scratcher for sure. But the bottom line is that 1) the tracking should not change just by adjusting tension, and 2) properly adjusted, the blade should not deflect as soon as it hits the wood. Let us know what CS tells you when they respond – it will be interesting to hear what they say.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#30 posted 01-25-2018 04:10 PM

I’d skip the email and get a live body on the phone.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1918 days


#31 posted 01-25-2018 04:24 PM

I didn’t read every response so I apologize in advance if I’m repeating something already said. If the saw is setup correctly, blade tension, blade position with gullet on crown of top wheel, guides set correctly, then the main difference is cutting crosscut vs. ripcut/resaw. Either the blade is dull or the tooth set is out of whack. I assume the blade you are using is a general purpose and not a resaw blade.

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jiju

7 posts in 4130 days


#32 posted 01-25-2018 05:30 PM

I had the exact same problem, found out my fence was not aligned right. It cuts like a charm now.

-- The older I get, the better I was.

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#33 posted 01-25-2018 07:59 PM

I do find it interesting that the tracking adjustment design on a new Jet (and probably other brands too) is the same as on 50 year old saws. The Jet seems to be made of a little better material than the pot metal on mine but it is the same design.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1918 days


#34 posted 01-25-2018 08:23 PM



I had the exact same problem, found out my fence was not aligned right. It cuts like a charm now.

- jiju

Yep.. depending on how the blade is set on the wheel it will have a drift. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how the set the fence to be aligned with the drift.

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#35 posted 01-26-2018 12:17 AM


I had the exact same problem, found out my fence was not aligned right. It cuts like a charm now.

- jiju

Yep.. depending on how the blade is set on the wheel it will have a drift. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how the set the fence to be aligned with the drift.

- WhyMe

In my case the blade twists/drifts so much that it rubs against the right guide filing it down at the corner. Even when the gullet sits right on the crown, or moved back or forward.

In the set-up video mentioned in the very beginning here, the presenter says that drift angles are due to incomplete tuning.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

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WhyMe

1147 posts in 1918 days


#36 posted 01-26-2018 02:14 AM

Have you ripped without using the fence by following a straight line to determine the amount of drift? Have you seen any of the videos showing how to adjust the fence for drift?

View Andybb's profile

Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#37 posted 01-28-2018 07:12 PM

Just curious if you found the problem or what Jet CS had to say?

-- Andy - Seattle USA

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msinc

567 posts in 861 days


#38 posted 01-28-2018 07:36 PM



In the set-up video mentioned in the very beginning here, the presenter says that drift angles are due to incomplete tuning.
- harum

Yes, that could be all there is to it, but he is doing a seminar based on a machine that is in good working order and only needs adjusted. Adjustment can certainly cause this problem, but as bad as it sounds like yours is doing it there is something wrong somewhere. I doubt very seriously that further adjustment, especially after having done the adjustments and it not curing the problem, is going to fix it.

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#39 posted 01-29-2018 06:46 PM

Thanks for all the feedback! Yes, first I have to find out if there is something wrong with the saw. Don’t see any mechanical problem at this point.


Just curious if you found the problem or what Jet CS had to say?

- Andybb

I’ve talked to Jet CS and the guy said that “of course tension changes tracking”—which is a good news, right?. He said I first need to adjust the tension and then change the blade tracking by bringing it to the middle of the upper wheel. Well, this information from Jet CS and no obvious defects around the bracket/pivot assembly make me think that I miss something in my set-up sequence. So, I’m back to square one.

In the set-up video mentioned in the very beginning here, the presenter says that drift angles are due to incomplete tuning.
- harum

Yes, that could be all there is to it, but he is doing a seminar based on a machine that is in good working order and only needs adjusted. Adjustment can certainly cause this problem, but as bad as it sounds like yours is doing it there is something wrong somewhere. I doubt very seriously that further adjustment, especially after having done the adjustments and it not curing the problem, is going to fix it.

- msinc

Good point!

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2063 days


#40 posted 01-30-2018 06:52 AM

Here is another thought since it seems your still having problems

Carter makes these magnetic guides to help align your fence to the blade.

Here is a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h49c-Ckjr9w

Link
https://www.amazon.com/CARTER-F-A-S-T-Fence-Alignment-Tool/dp/B01N2ARQXR

View Charlie H.'s profile

Charlie H.

357 posts in 1007 days


#41 posted 01-31-2018 12:07 AM

Sorry you are having problems.
You asked if the cut you are trying to make is too much to ask of this saw.
That answer is no.
I have the Jet 14” open stand saw.
It has less powerful motor than the saw you have.
I successfully resaw 4-6” hardwoods fairly regularly.
I am using 1/2” Timberwolf blade, I don’t remember the TPI.
I do have aftermarket bearing guides on the upper but standard guide on the lower.
Blade tensioned per Timberwolf flutter instructions and the rest of the saw setup per the Snodengrass video.
The saw tracks and cuts very well.
I don’t have recommendations to fix your issue but I have the next saw model down from the one you have and it will easily make that cut.

-- Regards, Charlie in Rowlett, TX --------I talk to myself, because sometimes I need expert advice.---------

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#42 posted 02-01-2018 02:25 AM



Sorry you are having problems.
You asked if the cut you are trying to make is too much to ask of this saw.
That answer is no.
...
- Chashint

Thanks, Charlie! This is a good news to me.


Here is another thought since it seems your still having problems

Carter makes these magnetic guides to help align your fence to the blade.

Here is a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h49c-Ckjr9w

Link
https://www.amazon.com/CARTER-F-A-S-T-Fence-Alignment-Tool/dp/B01N2ARQXR

- John_H

Thanks John! Interesting idea.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

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Lazyman

3323 posts in 1744 days


#43 posted 02-01-2018 04:32 AM

You said the blade is new but have you used it enough that it has any build up, especially from sawing green wood? I’ve had this happen when sap or resin builds up on the blade. Cleaning the blade fixed the problem.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Andybb

1884 posts in 961 days


#44 posted 02-01-2018 04:46 PM

harum – I know what the Jet tech told you but the amount of movement you got from adjusting the tension just seems excessive. If you think you missed a major step in the set up then start from scratch but if after that it’s still not right I’m still leaning towards an issue with the saw.

-- Andy - Seattle USA

View harum's profile (online now)

harum

358 posts in 2000 days


#45 posted 04-13-2019 11:48 PM

It’s been a while since my last update. I double checked all the parts for cracks, then tuned several times, nothing helped. Then I scraped the Timberwolf blade from Woodcraft and tried another more expensive blade of different brand. Everything seems to have worked normally with that new blade. Resawing 5” exotic hardwood worked quite well.

-- "If you're not counting the ripples when throwing pebbles in the water, you're wasting your time."

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Kelly

2280 posts in 3301 days


#46 posted 04-14-2019 06:34 AM

Just for reference, I’ve found too much tension will bring out thumping.

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OSU55

2238 posts in 2347 days


#47 posted 04-14-2019 01:17 PM

Having just read through this thread, I suspected the blade, probably tooth set. Blade replacement cured the issue, unfortunately we dont know if it was that way from mfr or if it was ran against the guides incorrectly, teeth hitting, creating the problem. Also no mention of dressing the back of the blade – could have been a burr on a back edge causing it.

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