LumberJocks

All Replies on Hammer K3 Winner, PM2000 or Sawstop?

  • Advertise with us
View copythat's profile

Hammer K3 Winner, PM2000 or Sawstop?

by copythat
posted 01-09-2018 04:45 AM


1 2 next »
55 replies

55 replies so far

View MinnesotaMarty's profile

MinnesotaMarty

129 posts in 1580 days


#1 posted 01-09-2018 02:10 PM

Rob,
I read your post and could identify with the mental gymnastics that you’re going thru. I recently retired and have closed my design/build business and am in the process of selling much of my old worn out tools and equipment and upgrading for being able to do pure woodworking which over the years in business I seemed to have gotten away from. Payroll, ordering, contracts, subs, are all gone now. Its just me and a long list of projects to build
I have a Unisaw in my shop that is 30+ years old. It needs to be gone over completely if I am going to keep it. From now on I, or my son will be the only people using the tools. My wife wants me to get the Sawstop for the safety aspect.
A few years back we had a customer that we built an addition for, that was an accomplished woodworker and had a very nice shop. He had a Hammer combination machine. He claimed it to be fantastic. If I recall it was a 5hp, single phase. He did say that there was a learning curve but, nothing that was earth shaking.
I do know that Hammer machines hold there value very well. Whenever, I see one for sale it is not discounted much.
Right now I am thinking of getting the K3 and keeping the Unisaw just in case I don’t like the K3. Roger, the client with the Hammer combination machine, says that U won’t be sending the K3 back.
Just my input. Good Luck on your decision.

Marty

-- I can see the cheese heads from here and it is great.

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1402 posts in 3123 days


#2 posted 01-09-2018 03:23 PM

I own a Hammer K3 48’ x 48” and love it! First of all, it is deadly accurate right out of the crate! If it shows a dimension or an angle, you can count on it. The sliding table works beautifully and allows accurate cutting safely as your hands and fingers never need to get close to the blade. The sliding table allows work to be clamped down when run through the saw eliminating problems with work slippage making a bad cut. Plenty of power in the motor. The fence is very accurate and can be tilted back out of the way for long cross cuts. No need to remove it from the saw (its pretty heavy anyway). Also, the fence allows it to be quickly slid back so the far end stops at the saw blade. Great for multiple cut-offs, allows them to accumulate beside the saw blade as you continue cutting. The long miter gauge is easily put on or taken off and comes with a sliding “stop” that is very useful.

All in all, this saw is so versatile that you keep dreaming up new ways to do things with it. I keep seeing little advantages to all of the movable and adjustable features and the T-slots all over the place invite clamping on jigs and fixtures for all kinds of things.

Just my two cents!

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View scrubs's profile

scrubs

46 posts in 622 days


#3 posted 01-09-2018 06:38 PM

Felder… mmmmmm

If you can afford it go for it. They are impressive beasts.

Powermatic used to make one, something like HSP-126 or some such? Might be able to find a used one. Every time I google it there’s always a bunch out there.

-- It all seems like a good idea at some point...

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4010 days


#4 posted 01-09-2018 06:54 PM

Powermatic sliders are rebadged Robland
machines. Same owner.

I have a Felder. Wish I had the space for
a full-sized slider. If you do, you can find them
used for less than a Hammer k3 new.

Sliders are terrific saws. My only real complaint
is the crosscut fence can interfere with ripping and
has to be removed and reinstalled, which takes
longer than doing the same with a miter gauge.

View TungOil's profile (online now)

TungOil

1208 posts in 857 days


#5 posted 01-10-2018 01:14 AM

You might consider a Minimax/SCMI as well, if the Hammer is in your price range. All great saws.

I have the PM2000, and while it is a very nice saw, as you mentioned no factory slider (maybe aftermarket?) and I find the dust collection is terrible. With 3 hp, I have never had a power issue. Fit and finish on the saw is very good in my opinion.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1402 posts in 3123 days


#6 posted 01-10-2018 01:33 AM

”My only real complaint is the crosscut fence can interfere with ripping and has to be removed and reinstalled, which takes longer than doing the same with a miter gauge.”

I don’t see this being much of a problem. Just loosen the two tightening knobs on the crosscut fence (which is a really great one!), turn it 45 degrees, and slide it off. Just takes a second. It is fairly large and slightly heavy (which makes it good). I built a small long shelf on the side of the saw. When I remove the fence, I just slide it lengthwise onto the shelf. Just takes another second.

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View buckbuster31's profile

buckbuster31

256 posts in 878 days


#7 posted 01-10-2018 03:48 AM

No experience with others, but I love my sawstop

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 866 days


#8 posted 01-10-2018 03:10 PM

I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don’t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn’t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#9 posted 01-10-2018 03:45 PM



I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

- msinc

The 4 horsepower Hammer K3 winner 79×48” is $5,390—it is the company’s big saw but not priced at $8,200. In comparison, the SAWSTOP-PCS31230-TGP252 (3 hp, 52”) is $2,999 at Acme Tools. The cheaper of its two wheel sets is $199; the heavier version of its sliding table attachment is $1,459; and the dado cartridge is $89 dollars. I would compare the Powermatic but the company offers no variant of a sliding table. This makes Sawstop the only real alternative to the Hammer and by the time it is said and done, the dollar amount between the two seems close.

For me, it boils down to which is the better unit. I have only owned a Ryobi saw (starter saw), a 1990’s Delta Unisaw, and now a Powermatic PM1000. I have zero experience with a true slider and am concerned about accuracy, the learning curve, the cost of jigs and associated items, maintenance, quality, etc. That is what has caused me to refrain from pulling the pin on the Hammer.

-- Rob

View pintodeluxe's profile (online now)

pintodeluxe

5918 posts in 3175 days


#10 posted 01-10-2018 04:02 PM

Safety is most important to me so it’s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I’m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#11 posted 01-10-2018 04:08 PM



Safety is most important to me so it s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

- pintodeluxe

I thought the sliders were very safe because you clamp your work to the sliding table and that keeps your hands away from the blade and eliminates kick back. Is that not true?

-- Rob

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 866 days


#12 posted 01-10-2018 04:42 PM

Safety is most important to me so it s between Sawstop, and whatever future competitors gets around or buys out their patents.

I m happy with my 3hp 52” PCS.

- pintodeluxe

I thought the sliders were very safe because you clamp your work to the sliding table and that keeps your hands away from the blade and eliminates kick back. Is that not true?

- copythat

I don’t know that the slider eliminates kick back, but it does get you to the side and it would seem like out of the way, so even if it does you are at least not the direct target. I am all for safety, but I have seen where you can safety yourself right out of a job. Just my opinion, but for me there is a point where for example, if I need a saw that has a $1000.00 feature to shut itself off if I touch the blade and it cost me another blade and an $80.00 “pack” to get it going again…...then maybe I need to re-evaluate my need to do this kind of work.
Again, just my opinion, and someone will now post asking me if my fingers are “important enough to want to keep” ?
Having been someone who for the last 42 years has done “mechanical” type work whether for business or pleasure I subscribe to the old adage, “a mechanical safety is no substitute for good safe practices.” Knock on wood, I have never been “injured” yet and I intend to stay that way. The way I see it having one machine that “lulls” you into not having to be safe is setting you up for a possible accident on another. That aside, $1000.00 will buy me a lot more “capability” in my shop.
Where are you guys buying this Hammer 79” saw for $5300 and change??? The only price I was able to find was the factory at $8195.00

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#13 posted 01-10-2018 04:45 PM

Hello…I just joined this forum yesterday after lurking for several years. It is interesting that this subject and this saw, the Hammer K3 Winner 79×48”, is currently being discussed as this is the exact one that I am considering buying. I am also considering the Sawstop ICS and a PM2000 but, for the cost of an ICS I would rather buy the slider. I look forward to seeing further discussion on this subject.

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1440 posts in 1586 days


#14 posted 01-10-2018 04:53 PM


I am currently in the predicament that I too need a good cabinet/table saw. My take on the Hammer slider thing is that unless you are running a business and/or have money to spend this one should probably be out. The cold, hard fact is that the only way I can justify four times the money just to have the slider is that as a business having to constantly cut large pieces I can eliminate one employee. Instead of two employees at the saw I can do the same thing with one. Beyond that, I just don t see it at my level of use/need. This doesn t even factor in or consider that you have to buy special blades, no doubt four times the money {or more} as well.
All that said, there is not a table saw made I cannot buy today and I seem to have that rare ability {haha!} of being able to convince myself that I will have use for something at some unforeseeable point. My problem is that I also need a dust collection system and I also want that to be a decent one too…I also do have a little bit of a frugal side too, so for what the Hammer slider thing cost I can easily have a decent saw and DCS both.

Edit: I do find it interesting that we kick around the idea that the adjustability and accuracy of equipment at this level is something we need to discuss as if it somehow might fall short. One thing is for certain, if I have to “wonder” about whether or not a saw will cut right then I am considering the wrong saw!!! On the other hand, if I get a new $8200 plus saw home and find I need to adjust a fence or set the kerf I am just going to go ahead and do it and move on with life, I am not going to cry, call the factory and expect some lab coat guy to show up an hour later to “take care of it”.

- msinc

The 4 horsepower Hammer K3 winner 79×48” is $5,390—it is the company s big saw but not priced at $8,200. In comparison, the SAWSTOP-PCS31230-TGP252 (3 hp, 52”) is $2,999 at Acme Tools. The cheaper of its two wheel sets is $199; the heavier version of its sliding table attachment is $1,459; and the dado cartridge is $89 dollars. I would compare the Powermatic but the company offers no variant of a sliding table. This makes Sawstop the only real alternative to the Hammer and by the time it is said and done, the dollar amount between the two seems close.

For me, it boils down to which is the better unit. I have only owned a Ryobi saw (starter saw), a 1990 s Delta Unisaw, and now a Powermatic PM1000. I have zero experience with a true slider and am concerned about accuracy, the learning curve, the cost of jigs and associated items, maintenance, quality, etc. That is what has caused me to refrain from pulling the pin on the Hammer.

- copythat

I have a Grizzly slider and having looked at the slider attachments of the sawstop, I think you really can’t compare the 2.
The sawstop being an attachment has the slider too far away from the blade if you’re watching to do straightline ripping of narrower pieces. I use mine a lot for that purpose. Also, you will have to compare the total stroke you can get from it versus the K3

Before I bought the slider, I looked hard at the Sawstop with their older slider attachment but in the end felt it’s better to get a saw designed from the ground up as a slider rather than buying a saw that has the slider as an afterthought.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#15 posted 01-10-2018 04:54 PM



I don t know that the slider eliminates kick back, but it does get you to the side and it would seem like out of the way, so even if it does you are at least not the direct target. I am all for safety, but I have seen where you can safety yourself right out of a job. Just my opinion, but for me there is a point where for example, if I need a saw that has a $1000.00 feature to shut itself off if I touch the blade and it cost me another blade and an $80.00 “pack” to get it going again…...then maybe I need to re-evaluate my need to do this kind of work.
Again, just my opinion, and someone will now post asking me if my fingers are “important enough to want to keep” ?
Having been someone who for the last 42 years has done “mechanical” type work whether for business or pleasure I subscribe to the old adage, “a mechanical safety is no substitute for good safe practices.” Knock on wood, I have never been “injured” yet and I intend to stay that way. The way I see it having one machine that “lulls” you into not having to be safe is setting you up for a possible accident on another. That aside, $1000.00 will buy me a lot more “capability” in my shop.
Where are you guys buying this Hammer 79” saw for $5300 and change??? The only price I was able to find was the factory at $8195.00

- msinc

The price I found was here: http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Machines/Hammer-K3-winner-79x48.html

-- Rob

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#16 posted 01-10-2018 05:12 PM


I have a Grizzly slider and having looked at the slider attachments of the sawstop, I think you really can t compare the 2.
The sawstop being an attachment has the slider too far away from the blade if you re watching to do straightline ripping of narrower pieces. I use mine a lot for that purpose. Also, you will have to compare the total stroke you can get from it versus the K3

Before I bought the slider, I looked hard at the Sawstop with their older slider attachment but in the end felt it s better to get a saw designed from the ground up as a slider rather than buying a saw that has the slider as an afterthought.

- AZWoody

Did you take to the slider right away or was there a learning curve for you? Can you do everything with a slider that you can with a cabinet saw? The H3 I mentioned above comes with the scoring attachment and can accept up to a 12” blade. I forgot to mention those as pros. Anyhow, please tell me if you would do a slider again or go back to a cabinet saw if you could.

-- Rob

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1440 posts in 1586 days


#17 posted 01-10-2018 05:31 PM


I have a Grizzly slider and having looked at the slider attachments of the sawstop, I think you really can t compare the 2.
The sawstop being an attachment has the slider too far away from the blade if you re watching to do straightline ripping of narrower pieces. I use mine a lot for that purpose. Also, you will have to compare the total stroke you can get from it versus the K3

Before I bought the slider, I looked hard at the Sawstop with their older slider attachment but in the end felt it s better to get a saw designed from the ground up as a slider rather than buying a saw that has the slider as an afterthought.

- AZWoody

Did you take to the slider right away or was there a learning curve for you? Can you do everything with a slider that you can with a cabinet saw? The H3 I mentioned above comes with the scoring attachment and can accept up to a 12” blade. I forgot to mention those as pros. Anyhow, please tell me if you would do a slider again or go back to a cabinet saw if you could.

- copythat

If I could do it again, i would go with a slider with a longer stroke. I use mine a lot for straightline ripping of large live edge slabs. It’s much more convenient than using the jointer. I can do up to near 70”. If I could do a full 8’, that would be perfect.

The only tricky thing is using the rip fence like you normally would. The slider frame sticks out so you have to move over into a slightly awkward position. I’m going to get some jessem rollger guides though on the fence so it will make traditional ripping much easier.

Another thing that sliders have that the sawstop doesn’t is the “uni” style fence. It is much more versatile and I love that the fence can be slid back towards the front of the blade so any ripping using the slide will eliminate any pieces getting trapped between the fence and blade. The fence actually is another part of the safety features to me.

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#18 posted 01-10-2018 05:32 PM

Got on the Felder website and stepped through the process to see what the final cost would be for delivery to Alvin, TX. Wow, they want $630.32 to ship it on top of $444 I would have to pay for taxes…this unfortunately might take this saw out of contention. I’ll have to call them first to confirm pricing but that is a steep freight charge.

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1440 posts in 1586 days


#19 posted 01-10-2018 05:33 PM

Oh, I didn’t mention your first question. To me it wasn’t that difficult to get used to. It’s pretty straightforward but if you have any questions, there are a lot of videos and how-to videos on using sliders.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#20 posted 01-10-2018 07:14 PM



Got on the Felder website and stepped through the process to see what the final cost would be for delivery to Alvin, TX. Wow, they want $630.32 to ship it on top of $444 I would have to pay for taxes…this unfortunately might take this saw out of contention. I ll have to call them first to confirm pricing but that is a steep freight charge.

- Steinbierz

My tax would be $364 and shipping to NC is $266. I wonder why there is tax on an Internet sale if no portion of the company is located within my home state. Too bad Acme Tools doesn’t distribute it with their free shipping! Wishful thinking.

-- Rob

View avsmusic1's profile

avsmusic1

397 posts in 1047 days


#21 posted 01-10-2018 08:44 PM

I have no experience with either, of the front runners. However, I would speculate that the Hammer was designed to be used as you intend from the ground up, and the sawstop was probably designed to be used as a standard table saw and the sliding table was designed as an add on. I’m sure the sawstop is a fine option and very capable – these aren’t overly complex machines (excluding sawstop’s brake). But if my speculation is accurate, I’d expect the Hammer to inch out the sawstop with small attention to detail type things that may not be evident up front

Just a guess though – perhaps others can validate/invalidate

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#22 posted 01-10-2018 08:55 PM

I appreciate everyones feedback. After having done research on past forums (and other websites), it appears the only complaint sliding table saw owners have is that they wished they had gotten a machine with a bigger stroke or had a bigger shop so they could have bought a bigger machine. I have not read one bad report on a slider. Maybe I need to keep looking.

Also, I liked my old Unisaw that I purchased new but the sliding table attachment could never be accurately adjusted. It was just ok.

My Powermatic PM1000 is a beauty and is extremely accurate with the Wixie indicator attached to the rail and fence. It is just so underpowered and I do miss the sliding table that is not an option for the unit.

-- Rob

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#23 posted 01-10-2018 09:12 PM


Got on the Felder website and stepped through the process to see what the final cost would be for delivery to Alvin, TX. Wow, they want $630.32 to ship it on top of $444 I would have to pay for taxes…this unfortunately might take this saw out of contention. I ll have to call them first to confirm pricing but that is a steep freight charge.

- Steinbierz

My tax would be $364 and shipping to NC is $266. I wonder why there is tax on an Internet sale if no portion of the company is located within my home state. Too bad Acme Tools doesn t distribute it with their free shipping! Wishful thinking.

- copythat

It’s worth giving them a call. I called today and got a quote that ends up being a couple hundred less and includes both a 10” and a scoring blade. Haven’t looked up the blades yet to see what quality they are.

View Sark's profile

Sark

95 posts in 722 days


#24 posted 01-10-2018 09:24 PM

Sliders are for sheet goods, so if your’re cutting a lot of plywood its a great way to go. I used a 3 meter slider in my cabinet shop for many years. Yes it did need adjustment, it didn’t fine tune itself. It would both cross cut or rip a full 8 foot piece of plywood, depending on how you wanted to orient the wood. Also had a scoring blade for melamine, which seemed to need a lot fiddling to stay dead accurate. It had an 9 hp motor and took up a huge amount of room.

I also had a 4’ slider from Laguna tools which was a piece of junk. The table was impossible to keep aligned. The gap between the slider and the blade was too big. I want to add that neither of these two saws supported a zero gap throat insert, though they probably could be fashioned. I’ll also add that these saws are not as comfortable when ripping solid wood, though we used it for that purpose, not having another saw, and not really doing that much in solid wood. A well made and designed slider like Hammer, might be a great choice if you do a lot of sheet goods.

When I moved out of my 2300 sf cabinet shop into my garage, I sold off all the big equipment. For sheet goods I use a guided rail system like Festool makes, which I find much easier to use. I flop the plywood down on a couple of trusses, and cut away. It’s safe and accurate and fast enough for my purposes. The trusses/saw horses can be moved out of the way, so shop space usage is minimal. For ripping and smaller piece cross cutting, I have an old Delta Unisaw which does everything else, including cutting smaller plywood pieces.

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#25 posted 01-11-2018 12:35 AM

If you really are considering a European type slider – you need to at least look at what MiniMax (SCM) has to offer. They don’t publish fancy brochures or have much of a web presence but when you get down to the actual machine, I think you may find out that the MiniMax is the better buy

I am going from memory from when I was looking at Hammer – the Hammer is all metric, so the saw blade arbor is 30mm where the MiniMax uses a pretty standard 1”. (Same thing with their shaper). With the Hammer – everything is an option and costs money to add. The MiniMax bundles just about everything with it for the price. The ‘miter gauge’ on the Hammer is pretty wimpy (looks like the main mechanism is a piece of stamped metal) compared to the one on the MiniMax. If you’re looking at the 8’ slider – keep in mind that you need about 20 feet clear for the slider to fully function. If you look at a smaller slider, MiniMax has a 5’ which will let you crosscut a 4×8 sheet of ply and I think the Hammer small slider is only 48”. Other things off the top of my head – I recall the MiniMax uses a more powerful motor. Note, I ended up with the MiniMax combination machine but I believe the tablesaw part is basically the same as that on their sliding tablesaw

Hammer is to Felder like MiniMax is to SCM

Take a look at this video – it is a little older machine, but you can see some of the differences
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWDwGewwIos&t=1231s

I wouldn’t say that sliders are just for sheet goods and in fact, I prefer using a tracksaw versus a slider anyways. When working with a slider, you basically stand off to the left of the blade and it does take a bit to get used to. There is no ‘miter’ slot but keep in mind you have a whole mechanism that will slide past the blade. You just have to adapt. The slot in the slider is usually to anchor clamps that you use to hold your work or your jigs. If your crosscutting a board for example – you fingers don’t even get close to the blade. About the only time I actually work on the right side of the blade is when ripping narrow pieces from stock that is pretty narrow to begin with. Otherwise, I just use the slider

For ripping on a slider – a lot of people use a ‘Fritz & Franz’ type jig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wPOrPq8GIw&vl=de

This is what the miter gauge that came with my combination machine looks like – it weighs about 20 lbs

A lot of times I don’t even install the fence. I made a ‘stop’ (two pieces of aluminum bracket) that easily attach to the fence mount. Then when I am cutting something on the slider – I can set my stop on the right of the blade to the dimension I want and butt the piece of wood up against it and clamp the board down. So when the board actually goes through the saw blade – there is nothing on the right side to bind up the offcut and cause a kickback. (The fence will slide backward and do the same thing, but then it is sticking off and out from the table saw and is a little awkward. Usually you just use a stop on the left side of the blade on the miter gauge or full size table but sometimes it is just easier to do it on the right)

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#26 posted 01-11-2018 08:43 PM

Curious if anyone who owns a slider has an opinion on a separate scoring motor vs. driven off of the same motor as the saw blade? Thanks.

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#27 posted 01-11-2018 10:23 PM

Personally, the only time I have used the scoring blade was when I was fooling around with it when I first got the saw. I normally don’t work with melamine and my choice of plywood for something that is going to be painted is MDO – and that is not an issue

What is your concern? The motor on my MiniMax is 4.8 hp – so it is plenty beefy, don’t really see the need to complicate things by adding another motor

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#28 posted 01-12-2018 12:01 AM



Personally, the only time I have used the scoring blade was when I was fooling around with it when I first got the saw. I normally don t work with melamine and my choice of plywood for something that is going to be painted is MDO – and that is not an issue

What is your concern? The motor on my MiniMax is 4.8 hp – so it is plenty beefy, don t really see the need to complicate things by adding another motor

- John_H

Thanks…I have no doubt that the 4.8 hp motor will turn the scoring blade with no issue. I guess to get to brass tacks my “concern” is about making sure I ask the right questions before rather than after I make a purchase this big. Why is there a separate motor on some? Is it a definite must or not? You don’t use your scoring blade so you are probably indifferent about the discussion. I have read on other forums where people wax poetic about the scoring blade and seem as if they use it a lot but I haven’t found a discussion yet about “separate motor vs. driving off of main motor.”

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

7786 posts in 3276 days


#29 posted 01-12-2018 12:04 AM



I appreciate everyones feedback. After having done research on past forums (and other websites), it appears the only complaint sliding table saw owners have is that they wished they had gotten a machine with a bigger stroke or had a bigger shop so they could have bought a bigger machine. I have not read one bad report on a slider. Maybe I need to keep looking.
[...snip]...
- copythat

I think you may have nailed it. After all, we can all dreammmm… ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Siv's profile

Siv

62 posts in 931 days


#30 posted 01-12-2018 12:06 AM

I have absolutely no first had experience but have seen that Felders have blade bakes which slow down the blade very quickly after you press stop but this also means you have to buy special blades that have holes for the locating pins which stop the blade from unscrewing under braking. This also means you’ll have to buy the Felder Dado set if you want to cut dados on the saw – and it’s something like $800. No doubt high quality but you sure do pay for it.

View Planeman40's profile

Planeman40

1402 posts in 3123 days


#31 posted 01-12-2018 03:03 AM

The blades with locating pin holes are no real problem and can be relatively cheap. I use my saw in a home workshop. Being cheap, I bought a 96 tooth 12” blade from Harbor Freight and sent it to Forest Blades in New Jersey to have the locating holes punches. The Blade was $36 and the hole punching was about the same, so for $70 to $80 you can get a good blade. I want to say that Harbor Freight 96 tooth carbide blade is the best blade I have EVER had in my 60 years of using a table saw! Runs true, cuts extremely clean, and has never needed sharpening in the past three years. I would definitely buy another one!

-- Always remember: It is a mathematical certainty that half the people in this country are below average in intelligence!

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#32 posted 01-12-2018 03:16 AM

Forrest makes a dado set specifically for Hammer/Felder and is more reasonably priced at about half the cost

Example:
https://www.sliversmill.com/product_600_Forrest_6x24T_Dado_King_Set_with_30mm_Hole__29mm_Pinholes_w.html

Getting back to the scoring blade – I was under the impression that they all ran off the main motor, but I did a search and see that Grizzly makes a saw with a separate 1hp motor and they tout “it also has an independent scoring blade motor that allows the main motor to focus all power on cuts”...

Anyways, if you just looking for a slider and not a combination type machine, I believe the MiniMax Slider is the SC2 and it looks like it is priced in the same ballpark as the Hammer – although you would probably have to contact them to see what they would actually sell for (note – I don’t see the ‘miter gauge’ that attaches to the side of the slider like my combo machine has, not sure if it is an option or what)

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/minimax-sc-2g.706

K3 Winner Comfort

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#33 posted 01-12-2018 04:30 AM



Getting back to the scoring blade – I was under the impression that they all ran off the main motor, but I did a search and see that Grizzly makes a saw with a separate 1hp motor and they tout “it also has an independent scoring blade motor that allows the main motor to focus all power on cuts”...

- John_H

I’m still a little confused if the K3 comes with a separate scoring motor. The salesman emailed me and said that it comes with a 1 hp scoring motor but I have seen other places where it says it is belt driven off the main motor. Can anyone with a K3 with scoring confirm either way. Thanks.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#34 posted 01-12-2018 05:04 AM


I m still a little confused if the K3 comes with a separate scoring motor. The salesman emailed me and said that it comes with a 1 hp scoring motor but I have seen other places where it says it is belt driven off the main motor. Can anyone with a K3 with scoring confirm either way. Thanks.

- Steinbierz

The website indicates a mechanical scoring unit on the K3 winner 79×48. The 1hp motor may have been a factory upgrade.

-- Rob

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#35 posted 01-12-2018 06:55 AM

This is from the ‘specs’ on the Hammer website. The main motor is 4 hp and it looks like a 1 hp scoring unit motor is listed as “O” for optional versus “S” for standard

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/Machines/Hammer-K3-winner-79x48.html

Interesting review I just found tonight about the B3 winner from a new owner who previously had a Saw Stop Pro Cabinet. He kind of highlights the fact that everything with Hammer/Felder is ‘optional’ – saw blade, scoring blade, clamps, things like that
http://rogerxue-eim.blogspot.com/2017/04/hammer-b3-winner-sliding-table-saw.html

Lastly, I forgot to mention that you need to remember to manually retract the scoring blade when you are not actively using it – otherwise it is easy to forget and can become a real safety hazard. I would be sure to ask how do you retract the blade and more importantly if you have a 12” saw blade mounted can you use the scoring blade or can it only be used with a 10” saw blade

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#36 posted 01-12-2018 12:32 PM


Forrest makes a dado set specifically for Hammer/Felder and is more reasonably priced at about half the cost

Example:
https://www.sliversmill.com/product_600_Forrest_6x24T_Dado_King_Set_with_30mm_Hole__29mm_Pinholes_w.html

Getting back to the scoring blade – I was under the impression that they all ran off the main motor, but I did a search and see that Grizzly makes a saw with a separate 1hp motor and they tout “it also has an independent scoring blade motor that allows the main motor to focus all power on cuts”...

Anyways, if you just looking for a slider and not a combination type machine, I believe the MiniMax Slider is the SC2 and it looks like it is priced in the same ballpark as the Hammer – although you would probably have to contact them to see what they would actually sell for (note – I don t see the miter gauge that attaches to the side of the slider like my combo machine has, not sure if it is an option or what)

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/minimax-sc-2g.706

K3 Winner Comfort

- John_H

I m still a little confused if the K3 comes with a separate scoring motor. The salesman emailed me and said that it comes with a 1 hp scoring motor but I have seen other places where it says it is belt driven off the main motor. Can anyone with a K3 with scoring confirm either way. Thanks.

- Steinbierz

The website indicates a mechanical scoring unit on the K3 winner 79×48. The 1hp motor may have been a factory upgrade.

- copythat

That could be the case…I did tell them up front that I wanted the scoring feature. At any rate, I am talking to the salesman again today so I will ask more directly the question. Part of why I ask is I am also looking at a Mimimax SC3 C (similar price…actually about $700-$800 higher) and their website says “The scoring is belt-driven from the main motor” making me wonder if this wasn’t typical for this price range.

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#37 posted 01-12-2018 12:44 PM


Lastly, I forgot to mention that you need to remember to manually retract the scoring blade when you are not actively using it – otherwise it is easy to forget and can become a real safety hazard. I would be sure to ask how do you retract the blade and more importantly if you have a 12” saw blade mounted can you use the scoring blade or can it only be used with a 10” saw blade

- John_H

Regarding the 12” blade, this is the answer I got back from the salesman, Sam Striegler, when I asked that question…”You can only use the scoring unit with a 10” blade, so with a 12” blade the scoring blade would have to be removed.”

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#38 posted 01-12-2018 01:32 PM


Interesting review I just found tonight about the B3 winner from a new owner who previously had a Saw Stop Pro Cabinet. He kind of highlights the fact that everything with Hammer/Felder is optional – saw blade, scoring blade, clamps, things like that
http://rogerxue-eim.blogspot.com/2017/04/hammer-b3-winner-sliding-table-saw.html

- John_H

Well, I’ll have to say that was an eye-opening review. Sometimes with these reviews it is hard to tell if someone is being overly critical or if they just got a Monday-made lemon unit. Tough to say but also tough to deny that in his particular case he definitely had issues both with the product and with customer service and support.

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#39 posted 01-12-2018 06:00 PM


Interesting review I just found tonight about the B3 winner from a new owner who previously had a Saw Stop Pro Cabinet. He kind of highlights the fact that everything with Hammer/Felder is optional – saw blade, scoring blade, clamps, things like that
http://rogerxue-eim.blogspot.com/2017/04/hammer-b3-winner-sliding-table-saw.html

- John_H

Well, I ll have to say that was an eye-opening review. Sometimes with these reviews it is hard to tell if someone is being overly critical or if they just got a Monday-made lemon unit. Tough to say but also tough to deny that in his particular case he definitely had issues both with the product and with customer service and support.

- Steinbierz

I agree – it is hard to sort through all the information sometimes. But I will say this, Saw Mill Creek deletes negative reviews/comments so take whatever you read on that website with a grain of salt…

I had issues with MiniMax. The first machine they sent me – the shaper was actually rusted in place (wouldn’t move up or down) and the salesman wouldn’t even acknowledge that it was rusted after seeing the pics…. (He wanted me to force the spindle up with a bottle jack) MiniMax eventually came through once I contacted the right person and they agreed to take the machine back and give me a complete refund (I was pretty pissed at that point).

But, I re-evaluated my position (didn’t want to cut off my nose to spite my face) and bought another machine from them because I truly think they build a better machine. Unfortunately for me, it had a lot of shipping damage and several parts needed to be replaced (they ship the fence under the machine on the pallet for example) but eventually it worked out.

One thing I learned is that companies like Hammer/Felder MiniMax/SCM – to them, these are just industrial woodworking machines. But to woodworking enthusiasts these are our ‘dream machines’ :) The point I am trying to make is ‘they’ don’t really care if the paint is scratched up or if something got rusted or like in that review I posted, there are gouges in the metal. It is an industrial machine, and all they really care about is does it work or not?

Home woodworkers are not their primary source of business so in my experience if you are thinking about buying a machine like this and if you do run into problems, don’t expect the same level of support as you would from SawStop or Grizzly for example. I am happy with my MiniMax, but it took a while for me to get there :)

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 866 days


#40 posted 01-12-2018 07:47 PM

I find reviews are for the most part not necessarily true or sometimes maybe a little deceiving. This is especially true of high dollar items where the buyer had a problem. Being realistic, anything made can have a glitch or problem with it. But, when you pay way more for something than you could have got one to do the same thing this tends to cause the problem/review to get “skewed” into being much more than it really is. In example: I bought a PM1500 bandsaw brand new. I think we all know that they don’t give these saws away. Got it home and went to set it up only to find that the table was severely crowned. Now I don’t know how anyone could surface grind a 1/4” high crown in the middle of a table not terribly big, or if cast iron that thick can warp that much, but it was unusable. Now I could stop there and blast on PM and tell you not to waste your money…but here is the rest of the story. I called the dealer who put me in touch with the guy in Tennessee where they are distributed. He said, “I don’t know if we have a replacement table here, but if we do you will have it tomorrow.” He had one and sure enough 11:00 am the next day I had it in my hands. Swapping out the table was by no means “plug and play” it took a little doing. I could go on to blast PM and say “they didn’t even send someone to kiss tail and fix it”, but I very seriously doubt that anyone on this forum really needs that. Bottom line, even if I knew in advance that the next machine I bought from them would have a similar issue I would still buy it…..but I don’t necessarily have to tell the truth in a review.

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#41 posted 01-12-2018 10:53 PM

One thing I learned is that companies like Hammer/Felder MiniMax/SCM – to them, these are just industrial woodworking machines. But to woodworking enthusiasts these are our dream machines :) The point I am trying to make is they don t really care if the paint is scratched up or if something got rusted or like in that review I posted, there are gouges in the metal. It is an industrial machine, and all they really care about is does it work or not?

- John_H

Very important and sage comment probably overlooked by many…thanks for posting it!

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#42 posted 01-13-2018 01:09 AM



Interesting review I just found tonight about the B3 winner from a new owner who previously had a Saw Stop Pro Cabinet. He kind of highlights the fact that everything with Hammer/Felder is optional – saw blade, scoring blade, clamps, things like that
http://rogerxue-eim.blogspot.com/2017/04/hammer-b3-winner-sliding-table-saw.html

Lastly, I forgot to mention that you need to remember to manually retract the scoring blade when you are not actively using it – otherwise it is easy to forget and can become a real safety hazard. I would be sure to ask how do you retract the blade and more importantly if you have a 12” saw blade mounted can you use the scoring blade or can it only be used with a 10” saw blade

- John_H


Maybe I missed it but do you think he would buy it again?

-- Rob

View John_'s profile

John_

197 posts in 2068 days


#43 posted 01-13-2018 02:19 AM

- John_H

Maybe I missed it but do you think he would buy it again?

Looking at this line in the last paragraph ”I’m really upset about Felder Group, unhappy about their product” I would say no.

When you step back and look at the overall situation from an uninvolved 3rd party – it appears that the problems he encountered weren’t really that bad…

But, with that being said, and this ties into my previous comments that basically these are ‘industrial machines’. He paid $7k for his Hammer and it did not meet or live up to his expectations.

A lot of it appears to be a lack of information before he purchased. For example the slider – yes, they are set to ride slightly above the table saw surface for a reason and yes, it can cause a problem when ripping narrow pieces when your working on the right side of the blade and the piece of wood you are cutting extends up and onto the slider (the board won’t sit perfectly flat on the table) It bothered me for a while also. Sometimes I would rough cut the board and then do a final cut where the board did sit flat, but then I figured out that if I took a piece of magnetic sign material and applied it to the top of the saw, it would bring the table up to the same height as the slider. (it only takes a minute to put it on or take it off and I really don’t need to use it that often) As with anything working with wood there is usually more than one way to skin the cat and you could also use a fritz & franz type jig on the slider to avoid the problem. It just depends on what you feel more comfortable with

Also, that reviewer references another woodworker (Marius Hornberger) and once I saw his youtube sight I realized I had watched some of his videos before – particularly one about a ‘problem’ with the Hammer Miter gauge: (it’s worth watching just to be aware of it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zfokxM-DGw&t=609s

You’re never going to make everyone happy and there will always be problems… Speaking from my own experience – these companies are not going to totally abandon you but then again, they are not really going to hold your hand either when minor problems come up that don’t really affect the function of the machine.

View JackDuren's profile

JackDuren

388 posts in 1322 days


#44 posted 01-13-2018 05:43 PM


I am going to sell my Powermatic PM1000 because it is underpowered and not able to do what my old Unisaw could do. I have been looking at various options and started focusing on the PM2000 and Sawstop and their various options. My old Unisaw had a sliding table attachment and I really liked it. Sawstop has a couple options but PM offers no such option.

Tonight I was perusing the Internet when I stumbled across the Hammer line of sliding table saws. I like the Hammer K3 winner 79×48” saw with outrigger table. It is expensive at $5,400 but somewhat comparable to a fully loaded SS with heavy duty sliding table attachment.

Can anyone with a K3 winner recommend the table saw? Was there a big learning curve in how you do things? Can you do everything on the sliding table saw that you could do on the cabinet saw with jigs?

- copythat

Totally different saws.

Buy a used Altendorf…

View Pogo930's profile

Pogo930

18 posts in 1005 days


#45 posted 01-13-2018 11:12 PM

Hammer is at The Woodworking Shows. Atlanta or Chantilly, VA. Chuck Bender is doing the demos. In the show yesterday (New England) there was an A3-31 combo planer/jointer, the N4400 bandsaw and a K3 Winner. Might be worth ride and wait.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#46 posted 01-16-2018 02:50 PM



Hammer is at The Woodworking Shows. Atlanta or Chantilly, VA. Chuck Bender is doing the demos. In the show yesterday (New England) there was an A3-31 combo planer/jointer, the N4400 bandsaw and a K3 Winner. Might be worth ride and wait.

- Pogo930


What did you think of the quality of the machine? Was the quality as good as a SawStop or PM?

-- Rob

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#47 posted 01-19-2018 01:52 PM

My understanding is that the Felder/Hammer, Minimax et al come with 1-year warranties because they are considered industrial machines (read this on another forum). I was unable to find much info on any of their sites regarding warranties.

View copythat's profile

copythat

167 posts in 968 days


#48 posted 01-19-2018 02:02 PM



My understanding is that the Felder/Hammer, Minimax et al come with 1-year warranties because they are considered industrial machines (read this on another forum). I was unable to find much info on any of their sites regarding warranties.

- Steinbierz


The following warranty information was included in their quote to me:

7. Felder’s Limited Warranty and Limitation of Liabilities.
7.1 Limited Warranty. Felder warrants that each machine branded with Felder, under normal
use and conditions, will comply in all material respects with Felder’s applicable written
technical documentation for such Product for a period of twelve (12) months with respect to
all electrical parts, thirty-six (36) months with respect to mechanical parts and one (1) month
with respect to labor. Felder shall have the right to make substitutions and modifications
from time to time in the specifications of the Products.
Felder warrants that each machine branded with Format-4, under normal use and
conditions, will comply in all material respects with Felder’s applicable written technical
documentation for such Product for a period of twelve (12) months with respect to all
electrical parts, twelve (12) months with respect to mechanical parts and one (1) month with
respect to labor. Felder shall have the right to make substitutions and modifications from
time to time in the specifications of the Products. Felder warrants that each machine branded with Hammer brand product, under normal use and
conditions, will comply in all material respects with Felder’s applicable written technical
documentation for such Product for a period of twelve (12) months with respect to all electrical
parts, twelve (12) months with respect to mechanical parts.

Felder warrants a 6 years (or max. 10,800 operating hours) guarantee for the tilting segment
“Easy Glide” branded with Felder / Format 4.
Felder warrants a 10 years (or max. 18,000 operating hours) guarantee on the sliding table
control system “X Roll” for sliding tables branded with Felder / Format 4, with the exception of roll
cages and scrapers.
Any adjustments are not subject to Felder’s warranty once checked, confirmed and signed off by
the customer. Return trip that need to be done because customer is not ready with materials,
lighting, power, air and dust extraction will be charged a full return trip. We also need the
undivided attention of the person being trained, until the Felder service technician is happy with
the level of understanding. If not, the warranty of the machine will be affected. Normal user
assembly, alignment, adjustment, tuning and machine settings are not covered by warranty. It is
the responsibility of the user to understand basic woodworking machinery settings and
procedures and to properly maintain the equipment in accordance with the standards provided in
the operating manual. Installation and calibration service can be offered as an option, please
discuss with your representative.
7.2 Limitations. Expecting only Felder’s limited warranty set forth in section 7.1, Felder
specifically disclaims any and all express, implied or statutory warranties, including the implied
warranties of fitness for a particular purpose, of merchantability and against infringement. The
express warranty in section 7.1 above shall extend to buyer only and not to any third party. No
person is authorized to make any warranty or representation on behalf of Felder concerning the
performance of the products other than the limited warranty expressly set forth in section 7.1.
7.3 Liability. With respect to any claims asserting breach of the limited warranty set forth in
Section 7.1, Felder’s exclusive liability and Buyer’s sole remedy, is at Felder’s option, to replace
or repair the defective Product or to issue credit to Buyer for the purchase price of the Product
(without interest), provided that prior to any replacement, repair or credit the following conditions
are satisfied: (i) Felder is promptly notified in writing by Buyer upon discovery of any such breach,
and (ii) such failures did not arise as a result of misuse, abuse, improper installation or
application, repair, alteration, or accident, or negligence in use, storage, transportation or
handling by anyone other than Felder. Any replacement Product will be warranted for the
remainder of the original warranty period or thirty (30) days, whichever is longer. Felder shall in
no event be responsible for any labor or other costs incurred by Buyer incident to the
replacement of any defective Product.
7.4 Notwithstanding any other provision of these terms or the order, Felder shall not be liable for
indirect, special, incidental, consequential or special damages of any nature including without any
limitation loss of profit, promotional or manufacturing expenses, overhead, data, injury to
reputation or loss to customers, arising out of or in connection with the purchase, sale, use,
performance or failure of the products, whether such liability arises under contract, tort (including
negligence), strict product liability or otherwise, even if Felder has been advised of the possibility
of such damages or if such damage could have been reasonably foreseen. In no event will
Felder’s liability to buyer arising out of or relating to the products or these terms exceed the
amount of the purchase price paid to Felder by buyer for the product that gives rise to the claim.

-- Rob

View Steinbierz's profile

Steinbierz

22 posts in 499 days


#49 posted 01-19-2018 02:24 PM

Thanks for posting Rob…interesting, 1 month for labor?


and one (1) month with respect to labor.

View TungOil's profile (online now)

TungOil

1208 posts in 857 days


#50 posted 01-19-2018 04:15 PM

I can confirm that the minimax warranty is 1 year. That and the higher table height almost pushed me to buy the PM1500, but in the end I went with the MM16 for its larger capacity.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

1 2 next »
55 replies


DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com