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View mike12ophone's profile

Flattening Rough Board with only Low Angle Jack?

by mike12ophone
posted 10-06-2017 12:44 PM


26 replies so far

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

470 posts in 4473 days


#1 posted 10-06-2017 01:36 PM

Mike

You will need a second blade with an 8” camber …

Then you can hog off thick shavings ..

When you do so, plane either across the grain or diagnonally to it. Then you will not need to be concerned about tearout, and can use a 25 degree bevel.

The alternative to this is to purchase a cheap Stanley #5, and camber the blade on that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View Galootinator's profile

Galootinator

40 posts in 742 days


#2 posted 10-06-2017 01:52 PM

I’m sure there are several techniques that different folks would suggest. I will explain how I would approach a job like this, and let others add to it if they have a different approach.

I would bench dog the drawer front being worked to my work bench. I would then place a winding stick or straight edge at each end of the face of the board, to visually see if there is any twist.

If flat, I would plane across the grain at an angle to minimize tearout, orienting my plane basically corner to corner. The mouth of your plane will affect how aggressively you can go about this…as you don’t want wood to jam in your plane.

If the panel is not flat, I would use the same across the grain technique, but working the high corners of the twist, that I previously established with the winding sticks. After each pass on the opposing high corners, your board will be more flat and true than the previous pass. I would keep doing this…checking on progress with the sticks until the face is completely flat. Once flat, this would be my reference face for the other three sides of the board.

I know this can be done with a low angle plane…I recently flattened a twisted and cupped piece of spalted maple that was 4’ long and 10” wide, with only a low angle block plane.

I hope this helps

-- I've never been accused of withholding my opinion ;)-- Walter M. ~ Missouri

View Galootinator's profile

Galootinator

40 posts in 742 days


#3 posted 10-06-2017 01:54 PM

Sorry about any duplicate info Derek, you must have posted while I was writing my response. Lol

-- I've never been accused of withholding my opinion ;)-- Walter M. ~ Missouri

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#4 posted 10-06-2017 02:59 PM

Awesome, thanks for all the info. I’m going to give it a go.

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8767 posts in 3082 days


#5 posted 10-06-2017 03:23 PM

Off the inter webs.

Winding sticks may be of assistance:

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2399 days


#6 posted 10-06-2017 03:51 PM

I have no power planer or jointer, flatten everything by hand after getting it close with a bandsaw. I bought a toothed blade for my LN 62, it works great for milling and the ghastly tearout you can get from the normal blade is practically eliminated. You still can rough up the sides, so make sure your boards are wider than you need.

When I first got my LA Jack I tried flattening boards with the regular blade, didn’t get the job done fast enough for me, or I got tearout. I leave the regular blade for shooting and edge jointing every now and then. But the toothed blade is great for flattening, I can’t say enough good things about it. In no time, a board cleans up nicely with a #8 and #4 or just a #4.

If you’re gonna mill by hand, you should consider a toothed blade. Before I got mine I was dreading taking off, say, 1/8” off an entire board face. Not any more.

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

470 posts in 4473 days


#7 posted 10-06-2017 04:09 PM

A toothed blade is useful to remove waste and prevent tearout. However, it is very slow, and it is not the plane of choice when hogging away twists and unevenness. It is better suited to a board off a bandsaw, and not rough sawn. For the latter, one uses a jack plane with a cambered blade. My preference for this task, in order, is a woodie, then a #5, and lastly a LA Jack – all with cambered blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#8 posted 10-06-2017 04:39 PM

Hmm so say I don’t use a cambered or toothed blade. Is there anything I can do that patience and sandpaper can’t fix (assuming my technique is on)?

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4153 days


#9 posted 10-06-2017 04:44 PM

If you don’t take measures to control tearout
you’ll have to do a lot more scraping and
sanding. The edges of the iron will leave
marks on the wood if you don’t have them
at least dubbed off.

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

23763 posts in 3188 days


#10 posted 10-06-2017 04:54 PM

Stanley No. 5c, cambered iron ($20, maybe)
Followed by a smoother..

Stanley No. 4 ( $8-$12)....

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12903 posts in 2885 days


#11 posted 10-06-2017 04:59 PM

I don’t know if it was said but edge joint and glue up the boards before trying to flatten them. Take your time orienting grain the same way (if possible) to help reduce tearout when you doing your final smoothing.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#12 posted 10-06-2017 05:08 PM

Bandit, im guessing you are throwing out prices you paid for those. Congrats, looks like you got a good deal there. I’m trying not to spend any more money. Plus this is a hobby for me and the tools are a big part of it for me. I’m not ready to get into reconditioning the old timers since it’s one more variable in getting good results.

Otherwise, this is really helpful. Should I flatten one reference face for each part before I glue? Then thickness and flatten after the panel is together?

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View Arlin Eastman's profile

Arlin Eastman

4262 posts in 3066 days


#13 posted 10-06-2017 05:16 PM

If the wood is really really rough you can use a scrub plane first and then do it Derek’s and Bandits way

-- It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

470 posts in 4473 days


#14 posted 10-06-2017 05:17 PM



Hmm so say I don t use a cambered or toothed blade. Is there anything I can do that patience and sandpaper can t fix (assuming my technique is on)?

- mike12ophone

Sure, go ahead with sandpaper …. if you don’t mind the gross inefficiency of the method, have LOTS of time on your hands, and enjoy breathing in dust!

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4153 days


#15 posted 10-06-2017 05:17 PM

I would roughly plane both faces and mark
them with a yellow or white pencil to indicate
which direction planing produced a smoother
surface. Chalk works too.

From there you can rip some rough edges and
clamp them up to see if they’re going to go
together flat enough to make one panel to
cut your parts from. If not, you may have
to remove some twist from one or more.
Of course the glue joints will come out nicer
if you hand plane them.

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#16 posted 10-06-2017 05:30 PM

Ok final result… buy a cambered blade, buy a toothed blade but prepared to take longer, and/or buy older planes.

Orr use what I have and hit it with sandpaper but use a little patience and effort.

Sarcasm aside, replacement blades for my woodriver 62 (which was an impulseish buy and I regret..kind of) are like $40ish so maybe if I run into really bad readout I’ll get it and but a camber in it.

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2399 days


#17 posted 10-06-2017 07:14 PM



A toothed blade is useful to remove waste and prevent tearout. However, it is very slow, and it is not the plane of choice when hogging away twists and unevenness. It is better suited to a board off a bandsaw, and not rough sawn.

This is why I said flattening 1/8”, coming off a bandsaw. I don’t find it slow at all.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

12903 posts in 2885 days


#18 posted 10-06-2017 08:14 PM


Should I flatten one reference face for each part before I glue? Then thickness and flatten after the panel is together?

- mike12ophone

What I said before is what I used to do before owning a planer but thinking about it again, hand planing before glue up would mean you worry less about matching grain direction. It always worked for me but maybe my way wasn’t the best way.

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View Dwain's profile

Dwain

596 posts in 4364 days


#19 posted 10-06-2017 08:49 PM


Stanley No. 5c, cambered iron ($20, maybe)
Followed by a smoother..

Stanley No. 4 ( $8-$12)....

!
- bandit571

Bandit,

I agree with your suggestion, but aren’t you under pricing the cost of those two planes? I am out in AZ and don’t have access to many antique stores or yard sales. My primary source for planes is ebay and online sellers. i just bought an old type 12 5 1/2 with a cambered blade for this purpose. $55.00. I have a number four that I got off e bay for $32.00. The only way I could get them any cheaper would be to buy project planes. I’m not against that, I have several. Its just that an 8 dollar number 4 will DEFINATELY need at least a couple hours of work, unless you are really lucky. Anyway, that’s my experience.

I guess I’m not doubting your price estimates as much as I want to know where you shop! I’d like to visit, AND BUY

-- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there is no end to what you CAN'T do

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

23763 posts in 3188 days


#20 posted 10-06-2017 09:03 PM

Just bought a Stanley No. 4c, Type 16…....$12.87 counting sales tax. The #5c was $20 off of the “bay”.

The #4c took…75 minutes to get into like new “working order”. The #5c took about an afternoon….was a might rust.

Sometimes, a flock of them just follow me home..

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

470 posts in 4473 days


#21 posted 10-07-2017 04:04 AM

I see a gang of videos on how to flatten board with a bench full of planes but I have only the #62 (I think) low angle Jack. I’ve got 1 blade 25¹/30² deg bevels and an adjustable mouth. Im sure it’ll be much slower but would this accomplish what I need? I suppose I’m open to another blade that I can scallop more aggressively but I’m seeing if I can accomplish this with what I have before I start breaking my budget with more stuff. The faces dont need to be dead flat for joinery or anything and Ill be using a random orbit sander for cleanup

Hi again Mike

I am returning to your post because I am curious to know whether any of the advice is helpful?

Since you only have the #62 (and I think it is the WR), the blade you have at present (30 degrees) is unsuitable as is for face grain, and a straight blade (i.e. not cambered) is inappropriate for taking deep shavings. BU planes can be wonderful, but many users tend to apply them incorrectly – such as not cambering the blade and not using a high enough bevel angle. The current cutting angle you have is 42 degrees (12 degree bed + 30 degree bevel) and this is a recipe for tear out in most woods when planing with the grain. It is only suitable for planing across the grain or shooting end grain.

Consequently, you need a second blade. However, for the price of a second blade you could pick up an old Stanley #5. This is ideal for use as a jack plane to waste away wood. Just add a 9-10” radius to the bevel at 30 degrees.

Now any hand tool work requires practice and experience to get the best out of it. There is so much that can be done with a #62, but I rather doubt you will discover a fraction of this if you do not apply yourself to find out, and to master the plane. Using a orbital sander on the faces will not get you there. Use the opportunity instead to fine tune your skills.

For faces and edges, I would aim for a minimum of a 40 degree bevel. That will give you a 52 degree cutting angle. Do not try and grind the bevel to 40 degrees. Simply add the 40 degrees as a secondary bevel using a honing guide. Keep the primary bevel at 25 degrees, and this will make it easier to hone a camber. ALL bench plane blades need a camber. Jacks more than smoothers and jointers.

Yell out if you want more information on using your #62.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10859 posts in 1991 days


#22 posted 10-07-2017 05:12 AM

What he said ^

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#23 posted 10-07-2017 09:23 AM

Thanks Derek. The hard part about this world is there are so many people with strong opinions. Someone I respect said not the camber my blade at all which is why I haven’t yet.

I have though spent hours upon hours planing to learn the technique. I built a walnut crib and had to rip all the slats by hand and plane them to final dimension. It worked out well so I’m not trying to comment that you’re wrong about the cutting angle but I guess I’m just confused. I’m sure with time I’ll tune my feel. It’s just frustrating on one side being told I’m wasting my time or on another that I’m not applying myself. I think ultimately I need to just do it and learn the hard way because it seems there are very few “universal truths” in hand tool woodworking

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

470 posts in 4473 days


#24 posted 10-07-2017 11:26 AM

Hi Mike

There are reasons for cambering.

With smoothers, or planes used to smooth, a straight/flat bevel will leave tracks. You may not see them when you are working, but they will show up in the finish. A very slight camber – 1 or 2 shavings worth – at the edges of the blade will prevent tracks.

With jointers, unless you are “match planing” (jointing two boards opened up together), a slight camber will enable you to create the faintest of hollows at the centre of the board. This will enable it better to sit flush.

With jack planes, you want a deep shaving – open called a chip – to speed up waste removal. A strong camber narrows the blade to enable this.

There is a link to my website below. I have also spent the past decade testing pre-production planes for Lee Valley, including all the BU range.

Yell out if you want more information.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View mike12ophone's profile

mike12ophone

45 posts in 1354 days


#25 posted 10-07-2017 12:05 PM

Yeah makes perfect sense and your site has tons of info. Let me slow down, put on my leaning hat and dig in. Thanks so much, I really want to hone my technique so I’ll shut up and listen.

-- - just a man with too many hobbies

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile

Smitty_Cabinetshop

16190 posts in 3123 days


#26 posted 10-07-2017 01:37 PM

The concept of ‘universal truths’ in hand tool woodworking is interesting, indeed. One of the most important concepts centers solely on preparing stock, re: this post.

—Rough work is done with a fore plane.
—Medium work done with a jointer plane.
—Fine work done with a smoother.

That’s rock-solid stuff right there. Now let the discussion begin. Because within the Stanley world of bench planes there are four fore planes (5, 5 1/4, 5 1/2, 6), two jointers (7, 8) and five smoothers (1, 2, 3, 4, 4 1/2). Add to that planes such as the #162 and #164 (low angle jack, low angle smoother) and there’s a myriad of ways to perform the ‘preparing stock’ operation. And that’s where you are.

Some love the #5 1/2 for rough work. Others, an actual scrub plane (40, 40 1/2). Some do it all with a low angle jack. One post on LJs today had a #6 working as a smoother…

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive --

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