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4K views 60 replies 29 participants last post by  controlfreak 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I've seen the video abotu the Sawstop, but they are incredibly expensive. Are there any other brands/altervnatives for cheaper? I don't want to buy one thats super cheap and have it fail or something, but isd there something in the middle? I'm looking for one thats cheaper but offers more safety than a cheap hand guard, but less expensive then a full on sawstop. Got any recomendations? Or will I just have to save up for a while?
 
#2 ·
The only alternative is being very careful to keep you hand out of the blade.

There was something on here about a new product in development that could be added on.

I am not anti-SawStop, I think it is great idea. My problem is two fold. One if the price. Second is that there are so many other machines in the shop that will cut you finger off just as fast.

I have been cut pretty bad twice by the bandsaw. My only table saw injury was a kickback of a tiny cutoff that vibrated into the blade. Freak accident but SS wouldn't help me in any of those.
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
Actually, aside from the auto-brake system on the SS, the competitors have essentially the same safety features, such as a riving knife, such things are now required by federal law. As with all things in the shop, the best safety device is the one between your ears. So don't feel left out if you can't buy a SS. I have one and think it's a great saw….but it's not the only one available. I'd start by looking at the Grizzly offerings.
 
#4 ·
Actually, aside from the auto-brake system on the SS, the competitors have essentially the same safety features, such as a riving knife, such things are now required by federal law. As with all things in the shop, the best safety device is the one between your ears. So don t feel left out if you can t buy a SS. I have one and think it s a great saw….but it s not the only one available. I d start by looking at the Grizzly offerings.

- Fred Hargis
Excellent advise, as usual :-D
 
#5 ·
I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I've also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.
 
#6 ·
Find a saw you like that has all the bells and whistles you are looking for and compare that price to an equally set up Saw Stop. That difference is what you are paying for the safety feature. Make your decision based on that. When an employee lost some finger tips in a non work related accident his medical bills exceeded $35,000 and counting along with three months out of work. That convinced me to pay for saw stop.
 
#7 ·
Same here. You can get injured with other tools but when the amount of time using a table saw is factored in, it really increases risk factor.

I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I ve also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.

- menuisierJC
 
#8 ·
I'll say "same here" again :)

Find a saw you like that has all the bells and whistles you are looking for and compare that price to an equally set up Saw Stop. That difference is what you are paying for the safety feature. Make your decision based on that. When an employee lost some finger tips in a non work related accident his medical bills exceeded $35,000 and counting along with three months out of work. That convinced me to pay for saw stop.

- controlfreak
 
#9 ·
SawStop is the only blade brake saw until the patents run out. It is a very fine saw, but on your floor, about $4K. There are other very fine saws for a lot less money. For me, a true riving knife is by far the most important safety feature. Then, push blocks, sticks, sleds, and jigs. Just never get within 6 inches of the blade. Actually dust collection is up there as dust can kill you, just slower.

For all those who just say "be careful" well I can guarantee you every accident out there was someone who thought they were being careful. Kind of like motorcycle riders. There are those who have laid their bike down, and those who will lay their bike down. Or the parody Danny Ongias* said there were two kinds of Porsche drivers, who have hit a telephone backwards and those who will hit a telephone backwards"

In the 3 HP cabinet class, Powermatic/Baleigh is sweet. Several Grizzly, a Jet, Laguna, and the brand I have come to respect, Harvey. I notice Grizzly is selling South Bend that looks like a small upgrade to theirs. They are ALL made in the same 3 or 4 factories. The only saw with universal bad quality reviews is Delta. Bummer as they used to be the best and some of the new Unisaw features are really nice. I would not go for a "hybrid" as it is just a light contractor saw on a box for more money.

Each has it's good and bad features. Some have a very short distance from the blade to the front edge. Laguna for one, and the South Bend is pretty short. To me, that would limit my sled and crosscuts. I just got feedback from Laguna (F3 is a nice bit of kit) and they said they had never thought about that. Well, they are band saw pros.

I thought my Ridgid contractor saw was a life-time tool, but after about 10 years, gee I want a 3 HP cabinet. C300 Harvey is on my wish list. Still, I may pay double the price for the SawStop PCS. I am careful. I use sleds and blocks, but I do like my fingers very much. If the PCS was a piece of junk with a brake, then I could ignore it, but no, it is actually a very good saw. As good as a PM2000? Maybe not quite.

If I was a contractor and needed a job site saw, no way I would risk not having a SS as who knows what helper could get hurt. If I had a cabinet shop, again, no question ( except for the big sliding table and autofeed industrial machines) Why underwriters tolerate any not a SS, I do not know. I sure would not write a policy like that. For the home use, it is your decision. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink.

As I have mentioned every time someone goes looking for a saw and does not search the forum, download the parts diagram for all the saws you are interested in. You can see which ones share which trunnions. The trunnion is the saw. The rest is just holding it up. Bigger and heavier the better.

Do understand, the SS will not prevent any injury, just more likely to get a cut and maybe a stitch rather than losing your finger or slicing your forearm reaching. It is great, but not perfect so it is no excuse to be careless. Besides, a trigger means $100 for a blade and $70 for a cartridge. Much cheaper than an emergency visit.

  • For the kids out there, Danny was a motorcycle racer who moved to Indy cars and sports cars. The joke was that he wrote the shortest book about racing ever. " Walls I have missed" He was very talented, but did not transition from youthful exuberance to old and crafty on the track as he got a little older.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
For all those who just say "be careful" well I can guarantee you every accident out there was someone who thought they were being careful.

Besides, a trigger means $100 for a blade and $70 for a cartridge. Much cheaper than an emergency visit.
I disagree. Most accidents are people becoming complacent and laxing on safety. They may claim they were being safe later to save face and not look like a fool.

And sounds like the people spending $35k on emergency room visits should focus on getting health insurance first before getting finger chopping machines.

Not saying don't get a sawstop if it makes you feel safer. Just that its not a necessity. If you don't have health insurance, that should be your priority
 
#11 ·
I disagree. Most accidents are people becoming complacent and laxing on safety. They may claim they were being safe later to save face and not look like a fool.

And sounds like the people spending $35k on emergency room visits should focus on getting health insurance first before getting finger chopping machines.

Not saying don't get a sawstop if it makes you feel safer. Just that its not a necessity. If you don't have health insurance, that should be your priority

- SMP
Myself I fear repetitive cuts more than any other. A single cut I am very focus on every aspect of safety. When doing repetitive cuts there tends to be a rhythm and that is when I feel danger creeping in.

He does have insurance but will be paying something out of pocket too I imagine. For me my deductible alone is $3000.00. So when I did the math I bought the $1400.00 job site Saw Stop and paid for the added dado brake & insert selling the crappy Kobalt I had. I am $1500 ahead of one accident and have a much better saw. I feel better about it and that is just me. If I ever manage a larger shop without the need to go outside for long rip cuts I will sell for about half and get another one. We all have different thoughts on the worthiness of saw stop much like the best way to sharpen tools. One can only search their sole to decide it is for them and within their budget.
 
#12 ·
SAWSTOP is about which side of the fence your on.

The side that sees it's advantages and the side that doesn't.

As a profession all shops I worked for had workman's comp.

For the hobbyist they may carry insurance or not and could seriously jeopardize your full time job.

When I got hurt In 85 I got workman's comp for 2 months. 1/2 of my normal pay.

So if you can aford it and want to be a player, it's your call…
 
#13 ·
No amount of insurance can replace a finger.

My closest have been flicking away waste ( impatience) and a small piece rip that had room to move between the blade and splitter. Grabbed it and flung it at high speed, pulled my push block out of my hand and I landed on the fence, not the blade. It would have literally cut my hand in half. A riving knife would have prevented it.

I stand by, for a hobbyist, it is your choice. A C-300-30 is $1300 ( on sale right now) . A PCS is about $4000. If I were a business, I would not think twice. If I were an insurance company, I would not insure a non-saw-stop.

We do still have the right to make bad decisions. That is not true everywhere. Personally the lighter job site saws kind of scare me.
 
#14 ·
For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.

Per Wikipedia:
August 2021
The SawStop patents begin to expire in August 2021, with filed extensions this could extend until April 2024 for the early patents. Given that there are about 100 patents, patent protection for this product line may continue for some years.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
- okiedoc1980
And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.

Cheers,
Brad
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
- okiedoc1980

And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix
A lot of the reason for the bile directed at Sawstop. Not because it isn't a great technology or product. What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom dwelling scumbag and the other one lives in the river. No real care for the well being of their fellow beings. Just my opinion of course. In my business, we use machines that will kill you in a fraction of a second and don't have anything approaching Sawstop technology. Safety learnings are shared freely however. It is industry compared to homeowner use however. It's a little like Volvo and the industry leading safety innovations years ago that they freely shared with anybody else that wanted to use them for no charge.
 
#17 ·
For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
- okiedoc1980

And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different technology and blade extraction method.

Actually, it was the method of sensing by blade conductivity that was upheld. Same concept even if the circuit was different.

Yes, the inventor/former owner was a lawyer. But he was also a woodworker and made a very good saw as just a saw. Festool owns it now. I don't understand why so many want to blame an inventor with a good idea for getting the benefits of his effort. Do you work for free? If you had a good idea would you just give it away? Do you know what it cost to develop and insure to know how much profit per unit is needed? It is not just manufacturing cost.

If you don't write your patents carefully, then the patent trolls will take your invention, twist the language and file their own patent and then turn around and sue you. Yes, that is actually a billion dollar industry!

If you have an idea how to fix the patent problems, please let everyone know. I suggest if it was easy, it would have been done.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix
 
#20 ·
No amount of insurance can replace a finger.

My closest have been flicking away waste ( impatience) and a small piece rip that had room to move between the blade and splitter. Grabbed it and flung it at high speed, pulled my push block out of my hand and I landed on the fence, not the blade. It would have literally cut my hand in half. A riving knife would have prevented it.

I stand by, for a hobbyist, it is your choice. A C-300-30 is $1300 ( on sale right now) . A PCS is about $4000. If I were a business, I would not think twice. If I were an insurance company, I would not insure a non-saw-stop.

We do still have the right to make bad decisions. That is not true everywhere. Personally the lighter job site saws kind of scare me.

- tvrgeek
You've quoted that $4000 cost several times. Rockler is advertising a price today of the 3HP PCS saw with 36" fence of $3099. Of course, if you throw in a Dado brake that's about $100 more. The similar class Powermatic saw (3HP with 30" fence) is about $3400. In my opinion, the SS and the Powermatic are in the same tier of saws. Others may disagree, and that's fine.

Both saws will have shipping costs added to that, so that's a wash. One can avoid shipping costs by going to a local dealer

True that Grizzly or some other brands will be significantly less cost than the SawStop or the Powermatic.

For me, the safety feature was the selling point. The quality and setup ease when I got the saw was a much-appreciated bonus.

As human beings, 99.99% of us are not capable of 100% diligence in all tasks. We're most likely to have our most major screw-ups when doing something we've done "a thousand times." That goes for the actions in the shop, while driving across town, using ladders around the house, mowing the lawn…
 
#21 ·
I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.

- SMP
So here's the problem with that. How fast do you think powermatic, jet, delta, Bosch, etc would have put an upstart like SS out of business if they didn't blanket patent the technology?

They wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

Innovation and technology is the only thing left. You have to protect it at all cost. Otherwise you will get trampled by bigger companies with more money.
 
#22 ·
I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.

- SMP

So here's the problem with that. How fast do you think powermatic, jet, delta, Bosch, etc would have put an upstart like SS out of business if they didn't blanket patent the technology?

They wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

Innovation and technology is the only thing left. You have to protect it at all cost. Otherwise you will get trampled by bigger companies with more money.

- CWWoodworking
What I mean is the length of time. Sure, in the old days you invented a new hand plane and it took years to build a factory and get everything configured, produce enough products to sell and market etc, get a fleet of horses to deliver them by stagecoach to the other 12 states, etc….

Nowadays, you invent a blanket with feet on them put it on an infomercial, and you get a billion dollars within 6 months.
 
#23 ·
For what it is worth: Saw stop patents begin to expire in August 2021. There are several, not all will expire before 2024 however.
- okiedoc1980

And the owner/inventor was/is a patent attorney - so they were written to be as vague and over-reaching as humanly possible - as was evidenced in the Bosch attempt at marketing their version based on a completely different (and superior IMO) technology and non-destructive blade extraction method.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix
A lot of the reason for the bile directed at Sawstop. Not because it isn't a great technology or product. What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom dwelling scumbag and the other one lives in the river. No real care for the well being of their fellow beings. Just my opinion of course. In my business, we use machines that will kill you in a fraction of a second and don't have anything approaching Sawstop technology. Safety learnings are shared freely however. It is industry compared to homeowner use however.
I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.

- SMP

So here's the problem with that. How fast do you think powermatic, jet, delta, Bosch, etc would have put an upstart like SS out of business if they didn't blanket patent the technology?

They wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

Innovation and technology is the only thing left. You have to protect it at all cost. Otherwise you will get trampled by bigger companies with more money.

- CWWoodworking
I definitely agree although reasonable licensing fees could have been a major change for the good rather than the approach taken by what's his name. When it comes to safety, it's just a different thing not only in my mind. Getting rich unreasonably for something that improves safety isn't something that happens in my business which is industrial construction. Technology is shared freely and reasonably in a collective drive to improve safety.
 
#24 ·
I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.

- SMP
So, if we remove patent protections, what's the incentive to invent or innovate? "For the good of humanity" only goes so far. The SawStop inventor invented the technology, and then managed to get his invention into production and sell a great deal of product. He took on a great deal of financial risk to bring his product to market. Without those patent protections, that technology would have been appropriated very quickly and deprive him of the fruits of his labor.

I don't care for some the legal wrangling the SawStop inventor has engaged in over the years. But he's entitled to the patent for his invention. And he's also entitled (indeed, required in the eyes of the law) to jealously guard those patents to keep them in effect.
 
#25 ·
I think patent protections were a good idea when they were invented, similar to unions. But they are super outdated in today's fast moving society. Its only holding things back to what we otherwise could accomplish.

- SMP

So here's the problem with that. How fast do you think powermatic, jet, delta, Bosch, etc would have put an upstart like SS out of business if they didn't blanket patent the technology?

They wouldn't have lasted 5 years.

Innovation and technology is the only thing left. You have to protect it at all cost. Otherwise you will get trampled by bigger companies with more money.

- CWWoodworking

What I mean is the length of time. Sure, in the old days you invented a new hand plane and it took years to build a factory and get everything configured, produce enough products to sell and market etc, get a fleet of horses to deliver them by stagecoach to the other 12 states, etc….

Nowadays, you invent a blanket with feet on them put it on an infomercial, and you get a billion dollars within 6 months.

- SMP
As a retired corporate lawyer who spent 25+ years representing Fortune 500 companies, a few points: If you invent a blanket with feet on it, you are not likely to get a patent-you might be able to claim "patent pending" if you filed an application but that is not a patent; I don't know what you do, or did, for a living, but from your arguments you must not have valued your work highly; Bosch had the money to hire the best patent litigators and litigate this forever-the fact that they didn't force the litigation tells me that their patent litigators told them that their product infringed on SawStop; there are other protection systems on the market-Felder has a completely different concept and design-but they only offer it on their Format series and with the PCS (Preventative Contact System) the machine starts at around 45-50K; the SawStop inventor originally offered to license his design to the major manufacturers and they all passed, reportedly because having it on some of their new machines would expose them to liability for not including on all of their machines-I have heard that but don't know if that was the actual reason; the inventor only decided to build saws because he believed in his technology; as to the argument that as long as one practices safe procedures there is nothing to worry about-I suspect most of the persons injured thought they had been; and last, the implication that if a person has medical insurance one doesn't need a SawStop is nonsense-insurance might pay for your medical bills, but, in the example cited, the man still lost his finger, will likely have to have surgery/ies and need physical therapy and will be less able the rest of his life.

I bought a PM in 1995, damned good saw. When the SawStop cabinet saw came out, I bought one and donated the 66 to the local community college program. Never regretted it.
 
#26 ·
I use my table saw more than any other stationary tool I own, so I figure that it is the biggest risk for me. With that in mind, I shelled out the money for a Sawstop. I ve also noted that if you buy top quality tools and later want to sell them, people will be lined up at your door wanting to buy them.

- menuisierJC
+1
 
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