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System Three Spar Varnish Failure

7K views 89 replies 27 participants last post by  CharlesNeil 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
#29 ·
The original post is his opinion based on his experience with the company. Knowing Charles, I will gladly stand by his side. I believe any company spokesman will convincingly promote their companies position. Many people probably have good luck with their products. The product used in this instance failed. It happens.
 
#30 ·
Charles Video shows the stuff that he's made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there's always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.
 
#31 ·
Charles Video shows the stuff that he s made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there s always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.
- a1Jim
Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side? You are very similar to James Carvel the Demoractic spokesman, defending Hillary's email cover up. THIS FORUM IS ABOUT HOW TO HELP FELLOW WOODWORKERS! What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? A: to attack those who openly ask and question Charles Neil. My advice to Charles, keep your mouth shut..
 
#32 ·
This is going to be interesting…

... how many Rounds is it scheduled for? :)

- Joe Lyddon
Joe until we find out; "how to stop the mold Devils " a coating does not fail by happenstance, again there is a reason for product failure. If you read my previous posts, this happened to me- All I want to know is how stop these tragic results, not only for my interest but to others on LumberJocks that read these posts, to learn from "mistakes" without being "censored"! Maybe Stumpy Nubbs can give his opinion for he is back.
 
#33 ·
What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? I guess we can be pretty brave and judgmental when we don't post a photo, real name,location or any information on our home page, should we conclude people like that are wanted some were or have something to hide? Perhaps they are friends with James Carvel ? Ha Ha ha
 
#36 ·
Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side?

- Desert_Woodworker

Probably the 20+ pieces needing to be fixed… :p

- Mosquito
Maybe so, but why is Charles mute? Again this would be a wise choice. The problem is about "mold" in a woodworkers finished product! I will probally use System3 in future projects, even if they don't give me 12 quarts of product to test.
 
#37 · (Edited by Moderator)
There is a time to talk and a time to listen, I am listening.
I like to fish, and something I learned along time ago , you do much better if you keep the bait in the water.

First off , we have nothing on our youtube channel from Sys3, and nothing has been blocked, perhaps his response was too large, I have had that happen, we do multiple short comments. I have no clue.

I will respond to all this in the next few days, With full documentation , not an issue.There is a lot of emails to sort thru from numerous folks.

Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn't going to touch this. We didn't have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.

Folks are down A1Jims back , but let me explain , Jim is a long time good friend, and to be blunt he is privileged to more info than you guys have been thus far.

I do agree with Desert, system three needs to sue me, they said if I released the video, they would .
of course they said I threatened, them …Didnt happen, I send the video to them private on you tube and told them this was the video, and they could see the mass body of failure. End of story
they responded with

Charles -

Let's again recap where things stand.

On Friday, September 23rd, you sent us the link to your video and asked for our comments. Yesterday, September 28th, I replied with my thoughts and suggestions. You replied, "Not to worry, I am refilming the Video tomorrow, I'll make sure your points are addressed."

After that, you have:

• Again threatened the public release of a new video disparaging our brand and product

• Interfered with our business relationship with Woodcraft Supply

We will await publication of your video if this is the course of action that you decide to pursue. Be advised that after this point you will have given us little option but to turn all communications and material over to our attorney. You may want to consult with your own attorney before publishing additional content.

At this point it is not clear how you'd like to resolve this situation.

Jeff

Jeff Anderson | VP Sales & Marketing

800.842.3411 ext. 216 | janderson@systemthree.com

Enough for now, we will be listening.

Much more to follow, when emails are sorted,
 
#40 · (Edited by Moderator)
Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn t going to touch this. We didn t have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.

- CharlesNeil
Thanks for your explanation Charles,

"Folks are down A1Jims back"

Sometimes people start stuff instead of minding their own business. I had a simple question I was asking YOU.
If you go back and read his comments, he was the one being rude.
 
#41 ·
rwe2156

The issue is resolved , they have refused to do anything.

Mr. Neil,

We have examined all of the evidence at our disposal along with the video that you produced regarding the mildew issue on the chairs.

The failure comes down to the following factors:

1. Your customer should have brought the furniture indoors or otherwise protected it during the Vermont winter. Freeze/thaw cycles cracked the thin varnish coat and allowed moisture to enter the wood, promoting mildew growth. It is your customer who has caused this problem - not System Three or its products.

2. Despite the negligence of your customer, had you followed the guidelines in our brochure Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood and applied 2-3 coats of Clear Coat epoxy followed by 2-3 coats of varnish there likely would not be a problem today. This brochure was written by us over ten years ago and has been available through our web site since publication.

3. We supplied you with 12 quarts of varnish as part of a beta testing program for this product. Had you told us what you planned to do with this we would have recommended following the guidelines in the above brochure and likely pointed out that 12 quarts could not possibly provide sufficient protection without the epoxy base.

We bear no responsibility for this problem and so you will receive no compensation from us for it.

Jeff

Jeff Anderson | VP Sales & Marketing

800.842.3411 ext. 216 | janderson@systemthree.com
 
#42 ·
Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side?

- DesertWoodworker

Probably the 20+ pieces needing to be fixed… :p

- Mosquito

Maybe so, but why is Charles mute? Again this would be a wise choice. The problem is about "mold" in a woodworkers finished product! I will probally use System3 in future projects, even if they don t give me 12 quarts of product to test.

- DesertWoodworker
Sorry, it was humor. I'll refrain in the future.
 
#43 ·
Ok lets use a little common sense, here, .. the infamous brochure here is the add copy from sys3 , you read it for your self, and then find the brochure, its on herehttps://www.systemthree.com/products/marine-spar-varnish

now here is the product and add copy from Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/product/847115/system-three-spar-varnish-satin-quart.aspx

Now let me ask you a question if you were me, and you read both of these copies, and had spoken with system three who assure you it would work, would you go looking for a brochure on their website.

Better yet walk in a retail store and pick it up and read the can… nothing whatsoever about epoxy.
But supposedly they are changing the label .. thats another story for another day.I have a finishing class in process.
 
#44 ·
Charles Neil best to you and thank you for your contributations to the industry. In conclusion, for me this post was about a product failure and the relationship between the supplier and customer. I am looking forward to hearing about the outcome of a ruined project. Also, I will recant "I will use System3 products"
 
#45 ·
Charles, thanks for your video and your followup comments. I always enjoy your posts here on LJs. I think that you summed things up the best when you said at the beginning of the video that your mistake was that you trusted a finish company.
You and Bob Flexner should go have a beer sometime and talk about all the ridiculous claims finish manufacturers make.
 
#46 · (Edited by Moderator)
in case you didnt find the brochure, look under recommended uses , I feel sure you would be looking there ,its so bold and in your face, how could you possibly miss it .. https://www.systemthree.com/products/marine-spar-varnish
if ya still missed it here is the actual brochure,https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1000/1906/files/Outdoor_wood_finishing.pdf?15570102553596296216 be sure to read the front and back and then tell me if you would actually do what it says. I sure wouldn't , I mean, and then say it's only good for a year or 2, why not do what we going to do, use a penetrating oil , and at least we wont have to strip all that " stuff" off to reapply finish
 
#47 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think we have made our point and our case, so as far as i am concerned this discussion is closed until we decide what to use. Thats up to sys3.

I am looking hard at a product called one time, its a penetrarting oil, I also tested this, about 3 years or so ago, I simply brushed it on some not so nice plywood in one of my guys trailer floor, its worn now but the plywood looks great, and no mold or mildew. But still looking at other finishes, . At least with the One Time I have a long term test. Any one else tried it.

http://onetimewood.com/

We will keep you posted .
 
#48 ·
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback so I won't.
I did see this in there technical data sheet:

NOTES:
When used alone, as much as 9-12 coats of varnish are
commonly used to protect marine brightwork. When used over 2-
3 coats of System Three SilverTip epoxy resin, as little as 2-3
coats will provide superior saltwater and UV-light protection.
For health and safety information concerning this product, please
refer to the Material Safety Data Sheet for Spar Urethane Varnish.

I can't imagine having to use 9 - 12 coats.

I'm not going to take sides since it's a he said she said deal, but it was a pretty big risk to take knowing film finishes don't hold up well. I wouldn't even think of using one here in the desert. Won't see mold but you can guarantee cracking.

Anyway, as a business man, I hate to see anybody have to eat work. I do feel for you. I would hate to have to deal with that.

I'm thinking rebuilding and penetrating oil.
Maybe you can get some of the kids to clean up the old ones good enough to paint and resale to recoup a little of the loss.
 
#49 ·
Jbay
In my post I gave my opinion about the video,which I'm entitled to do as much as you if not more,given Charles is a friend of mine.Lets be clear I named no one by name and didn't even say it was anyone in this thread that Charles had to deal with in the past,so if you took it on yourself that I was referring to you when I talked about trolls then we might know what you think your role on LJs must be.With your post you made assumptions that I was talking about others in this thread, seems a bit like paranoia like to me. I address no post to you until attacked me not the other way around,
"(That's all I wanted to hear before your biggest fan attacked me.)

"Ha Ha ha, very clever Jim! One paragraph you manage to call me/others a troll, jealous, judge and jury and make accusations of taking sides. Your lips are so far up his ass you couldn't make an independent decision one way or the other. Why don't you just let Charles handle it. He knows way more about it than you do.
"Original comment was to Charles. (not his Chihuahua side kick)"

Many times your "MO" has involved Judging others,playing God ,acting as LJs law enforcement,and never admit one of your ideas could possibly wrong or another person's idea could possibly be correct .
I blocked you some time ago because of these repeated actions on my threads.

Your knowledgeable guy and give some great advice on LJs If your issue with me is that you think when I post I'm saying I'm more knowledgeable or experienced than you ,then Ill admit here and now you'er more experienced than myself and more knowledgeable in a lot of categories.

This is my last post on this thread so if you're so inclined fire away.
Peace!
 
#50 · (Edited by Moderator)
give me a link to that, i have never seen that before either, but as a 50 year finisher, that much finish is going to crack and fail . you cant do that many "mills" , just saying . Its not a he said she said, what i have posted, I had hoped would be sufficient, oh there is alot more , from not only system three, but others, but I dont want to flame it, or involve others, There is an old cliche , " make sure your right then go ahead" . Im good to go, and I know folks like a good drama, Im not interested unless forced. not my call.

I personally would prefer to put this to rest, but…..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#51 ·
Next time use a Polyester epoxy. More UV resistant. The most Ideal is pure addition set Silicone acetate. it will stay clear and sealed forever. SiCOOH(3)=O very UV stable because it is the crosslinked product of SiCOOH(2)-OH when exposed to UVlight. So silicone compounds get stronger when exposed to UV light. Military uses it for Naval applications for a while now. It will stick to wood.

industry uses it
 
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