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2K views 20 replies 11 participants last post by  Ocelot 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm a few months new to woodworking after obtaining a second hand Kity table saw at the start of the summer, but I'm learning slowly, gradually acquiring more skills and tools, and having a lot of fun in the process!

I want to build some garden furniture for a member of my family because a) she needs some, b) she can't afford to buy, and c) it will involve some new woodworking challenges for me.

I've tried to find a set of plans I like, but haven't come across any that particularly appeal. However, I've found a photograph of a wooden garden table and benches that I think look fantastic, and so I'm now determined to copy that design.

And so, I need to move from a single photograph to a set of plans. The only problem is that my visualization skills when it comes to translating from one visual perspective to another are truly lousy - my brain just doesn't work that way! It seemed to me that there was probably a software tool that can do this job, i.e. distort a photograph taken from one perspective into another perspective (effectively changing the viewpoint), which would then allow me to accurately 'see' the shapes of the various components that make up the furniture in the photo. After a bit of searching, I discovered that there IS such a software tool! Unfortunately, I don't have access to a computer that is capable of running it. The software in question is Adobe Photoshop CC, and the feature is called, "Perspective Warp."

That's where the big favour comes in!

Is there any kind soul out there who has a high-spec modern PC or MAC, who also has Photoshop, who would be willing to 'perspective warp' the linked photograph for me in order to obtain a side-on view of the table and benches in order to give an accurate reproduction of the shape of the legs?

Yes, I know it's a big favour, but I thought there was no harm in asking!

 
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#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
What would we do without computers.? Take some paper or cardboard and draw the side view to scale having the intersections and seat bottom side shown from an end view. Keep everything to scale and use that as your patterns. The top and bench seat will be easier. Basic table heightis 30" and seat height 15"to 18". Now as far as widths the top can be about 30-36" and the seat bottom depends on how much you eat. You can also base it off of multiples of the material width your using. This process will add three megaBites to your vision of how it all comes together and how you make the attaching, and material list. Happy Eatin'
 
#6 ·
Perspective warp won t do a 3D rotation. You can t extract detail that isn t in the source image.

I d search for the standard height of benches and tables and work backwards.

- Scott
I can see that some of the detail is obscured, but given the symmetry I thought I could manually 'fill in the blanks' after the image manipulation. I really just want a reliable starting point that I can proceed from in a systematic manner without requiring any artistic/visualisation skills. However, if PS CC won't do the job then it's a blind alley. I was kind of optimistically hoping there was some Photoshop wizz out there who could 'fix' the image in a few mouse clicks.

Maybe I'll have to resort to a bit of modelling with polystyrene foam sheets or similar and see what come out of that.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
What would we do without computers.?
You given me a good idea!

Maybe I just need to find someone who is good at drawing to do some sketches from the photograph, which is probably what I'd have done in the pre-computer age. The fact is when it comes to paper, card, pencils, and absolutely anything that involves free-hand, the end product in my case rarely resembles the thing it should! If there is such a thing as 'visual dyslexia,' I have it.
 
#8 ·
You can do some amazing stuff with PS, I've got the CC version and getting a side-on view is impossible. Any PS warp feature works best with relatively small-ish manipulations. For example, you could move the angle of the back of the rear bench (this is a crappy rush version, but you get the idea):

Table Outdoor bench Furniture Plant Street furniture


Table Furniture Outdoor bench Plant Street furniture


But you can't turn the whole thing around to the side. I don't think it would be that hard to figure out things just by going with this photo alone. You won't get a 100% match, but make some sketches, get some cardboard or hardboard and work out template shapes you like.
 

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#9 ·
What would we do without computers.?

You given me a good idea!

Maybe I just need to find someone who is good at drawing to do some sketches from the photograph, which is probably what I d have done in the pre-computer age. The fact is when it comes to paper, card, pencils, and absolutely anything that involves free-hand, the end product in my case rarely resembles the thing it should! If there is such a thing as visual dyslexia, I have it.

- Aporiac
Years ago when I was new to framing, my boss sent myself and his brother to a house to frame the hip roof on a simple 2foot bump out off of a kitchen. He came by at lunch and we were making a mess of it so instead of getting mad he showed us how it come together by popping chalk lines and penciling around 2 by. Then he took me aside and told me any time I run into a problem to just draw it. It clicked for me and I probably have done that 100s of time since. I've done many a staircase in the past and if you peel the paint off the walls in those houses you will see my layout for all the parts and panel work.
Jeff
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
That is a great looking table and benches. Looks like a lot of diagonal lap joints with a mortised stretcher with that pin holding it in place. Another thing you need to think about is the wood your going to use.

- BurlyBob
With my current level of experience I can see that the construction is going to present a few challenges, but that's part of the appeal. I've got some ideas about how to proceed based on research in this forum and others, but I've got no doubt that I'll need to proceed slowly and deliberately while constantly looking out for the hidden bear-traps that always spring up in unfamiliar territory!

Yes, I've been thinking about the kind of wood to use as well. I've got a local source of English larch that is very good value (the guy grows the trees himself, and does basic rough milling.) It's only air dried, but I think that should be fine for garden furniture. I'm going to experiment on some samples and see how it looks with various finishes.

One of the biggest challenges is going to be cutting out the bench and table legs because I don't have a bandsaw, but I'm planning to get a router, learn how to use that, and then make some templates to cut out the required shapes. I've found a company that will make an MDF template from a 2D CAD drawing (cheaply!), so I'm probably going to take that approach (but I have a couple of back-up plans!) I have to confess to never having used a router before, but a few months ago I'd never used a table saw either and these days it feels like a good and familiar friend!
 
#14 ·
You can do some amazing stuff with PS, I ve got the CC version and getting a side-on view is impossible. Any PS warp feature works best with relatively small-ish manipulations. For example, you could move the angle of the back of the rear bench (this is a crappy rush version, but you get the idea):

But you can t turn the whole thing around to the side. I don t think it would be that hard to figure out things just by going with this photo alone. You won t get a 100% match, but make some sketches, get some cardboard or hardboard and work out template shapes you like.

- ColonelTravis
Thank you for that.

I think the consensus answer to my question is, "That won't work - you'll have to find another way!" I'm beginning to suspect that's the correct answer, lol.
 
#15 ·
There are a few basic concepts that relate to pretty much all types of furniture, chair seat and tabletop height, Dime to dollars the tabletop is 36-40"WX80-84"L. Look to the base of the TT and you see the cross braces, which are set back from the edge of the TT. The "X" legs which attach to the end cross braces is set back from the end of the braces. Assume 2, 2" set backs, = 4" TT 36-40" legs 32-36"WX28.5H. The surface design is obvious your only real concern is duping the leg design which is a simple cross half lap.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
There are a few basic concepts that relate to pretty much all types of furniture, chair seat and tabletop height, Dime to dollars the tabletop is 36-40"WX80-84"L. Look to the base of the TT and you see the cross braces, which are set back from the edge of the TT. The "X" legs which attach to the end cross braces is set back from the end of the braces. Assume 2, 2" set backs, = 4" TT 36-40" legs 32-36"WX28.5H. The surface design is obvious your only real concern is duping the leg design which is a simple cross half lap.

- Ghidrah
Thank you for your elucidation - a very helpful breakdown.

You're also right that the real concern is duping the leg design (and the back support extensions on the benches). I want to make sure I've got that right at an early stage, rather than discovering I haven't after everything is constructed! The mechanical stuff I think I can work my way through surely and steadily, but I'm less confident when it comes to preserving the design aesthetic because I'm conscious of some of my limitations. However, I'm sure I'll get there in the end, particularly with the aid of the pointers I'm getting from people here. I really appreciate the feedback.
 
#17 ·
I think what you want can be done. (I worked at Intergraph for 20 years.) There are lots of great new software tools since I left INGR 14 years ago.

- Ocelot
I'm sure you're right when it comes to the best available tools in the hands of skilled specialists, but I fear that's out of the league of my little project! However, I'm a resourceful soul and not easily deterred. It might take a while, but I'll post the pictures when I'm finished :)
 
#18 ·
Hey Aporiac - Please please don't let me scare you off of this project - it looks like a fantastic project, will be a lot of fun, and I am sure you can do it. But… what do you have for drilling/cutting the through-mortise on the legs and on the stretcher ends for the table and the bench ends? You will need to cut a slanted channel to make the wedges work. Getting the angles right on the wedges isn't critical, but its important. You need to be sure these things aren't coming apart after a little use. I would suggest that you invest in a set of Forstner bits. They will allow you to hog out much of the wood, and then pare/chop away whatever is left. Work both sides into the middle after drilling a centering guide hole. You can put a forstner bit in a hand drill. Its not really designed for that, and you may get a raised eyebrow or two form the purists, but to me that would be the simplest way to get er done for the mortises.

You also have breadboard ends on the top - again, not overwhelming, but that is a whomping big slot to cut. Use a Dado set on your table saw. You will also need some large clamps. Easiest way to get those is with black pipe and the Pony clamp ends. Don't buy the small diameter clamps - go for the heavier ones. The small ones bend and are too light. You can buy the black pipe at he big orange box, but you may be able to find it less expensively. Do you know any plumbers? Ask them if they can thread some pipe for you. You will want to leave some play in the dowel holes on the mortised ends of the top for movement (assuming there are pins in the breadboard end - hard to see. The visible top doesn't get enlarged, just he part that goes into the slot - so the enlarged hole is hidden. That lets things move. I would make them that way. Just look for any breadboard design and you will see the concept - its not hard.)

Last thing - I am concerned that the span of the benches is too long. I think you need additional support in the middle there. Uncle Louie will have the nieces and nephews all sliding into the middle if the bench deflects on him. Might want to think about a support in the middle. Just my $.02

Good luck. Don't get discouraged. Buy 20% more stock than you need - you will make mistakes - no shame there. Plan on several hundred trips to wherever you buy hardware - you will never remember all you need. That will get less over time as you start to collect all the oddities we all have all around our shops.

BTW - James Krenov and a lot of other people will tell you the bandsaw is more important than the table saw. I would make a bandsaw my next large purchase if I were you! They are quite handy.

Joe
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hey Aporiac - Please please don t let me scare you off of this project - it looks like a fantastic project, will be a lot of fun, and I am sure you can do it. But… what do you have for drilling/cutting the through-mortise on the legs and on the stretcher ends for the table and the bench ends? You will need to cut a slanted channel to make the wedges work. Getting the angles right on the wedges isn t critical, but its important. You need to be sure these things aren t coming apart after a little use. I would suggest that you invest in a set of Forstner bits. They will allow you to hog out much of the wood, and then pare/chop away whatever is left. Work both sides into the middle after drilling a centering guide hole. You can put a forstner bit in a hand drill. Its not really designed for that, and you may get a raised eyebrow or two form the purists, but to me that would be the simplest way to get er done for the mortises.

You also have breadboard ends on the top - again, not overwhelming, but that is a whomping big slot to cut. Use a Dado set on your table saw. You will also need some large clamps. Easiest way to get those is with black pipe and the Pony clamp ends. Don t buy the small diameter clamps - go for the heavier ones. The small ones bend and are too light. You can buy the black pipe at he big orange box, but you may be able to find it less expensively. Do you know any plumbers? Ask them if they can thread some pipe for you. You will want to leave some play in the dowel holes on the mortised ends of the top for movement (assuming there are pins in the breadboard end - hard to see. The visible top doesn t get enlarged, just he part that goes into the slot - so the enlarged hole is hidden. That lets things move. I would make them that way. Just look for any breadboard design and you will see the concept - its not hard.)

Last thing - I am concerned that the span of the benches is too long. I think you need additional support in the middle there. Uncle Louie will have the nieces and nephews all sliding into the middle if the bench deflects on him. Might want to think about a support in the middle. Just my $.02

Good luck. Don t get discouraged. Buy 20% more stock than you need - you will make mistakes - no shame there. Plan on several hundred trips to wherever you buy hardware - you will never remember all you need. That will get less over time as you start to collect all the oddities we all have all around our shops.

BTW - James Krenov and a lot of other people will tell you the bandsaw is more important than the table saw. I would make a bandsaw my next large purchase if I were you! They are quite handy.

Joe

- jobewan
More tips than I can deal with in one go there, but I take note of your comment and will revisit it as I go along.

One of my favourite teachers at school told me that at the start of every course he would write up on the blackboard everything that the class would know at the end. He said he always made a copy of what he'd written because at the end of every course there would always be some students who said, "We understand what you've taught us, but it would have been easier for us if you'd made clear what this was all about at the outset!" He would then hand them what he'd written on the blackboard on the first day and say, "See - I did, but you just didn't understand it at the time, although happily you do now!"
 
#20 ·
Outdoor bench Table Furniture Street furniture Picnic table


Aporiac,

I believe that what you requested is actually possible in Sketchup, though its beyond my skill level.

There's a feature called "Match New Photo", but it gets complicated quickly. I started it and took some rough measurements, assuming a 30" tabletop height. Although its possible for a Sketchup whiz kid to get a lot more information out of the process, it would be too much effort for me.

Assume 30" height. Tabletop appears to be 4' x 8'. Looks to be 10/4 stock for all major components (a full, true 2" thick). "Breadboard sides" seem to be about 9" wide (I expected 8"), and the boards in the field look to be about 9.5" (10 of them). I think you might be able to develop a drawing from those hints.

If you can get stock that big, it would be a helluva piece. However, you should be able to get 2×12 stock, and that would still make a great set!

Let us know.
 

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